Teeworlds - bridge

is bam useful

04:49

for anything else?

04:49

wait didn't I ask this before

i'm sure it is, by all means I'd use it over cmake which is a bit bonkers

04:51

it seems like it's still in active development, matricks is still pushing patches

I've used it for smaller projects, because cmake's custom language sucks. Likely there are some newer projects that do it better/are more feature-complete, but I didn't go through the hassle of finding them

04:58

For the bigger stuff, nothing beats the portability, feature-completedness of cmake, and you can rely on the relevant people knowing how to operate it

xmake for one seems like the go to right now, though I can't even compile it

05:57

irony, can't make the maker

@Dune you must have been around when cmake support for teeworlds was implemented, do you know why it was added? what did people dislike about bam?

<ChillerDragon> iirc heinrich pushed that because he likes standardized tools that new contributors know jtbx

07:13

<ChillerDragon> https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/1586

Add CMake to 0.7 too · Issue #1586 · teeworlds/teeworlds

Maybe you should also add CMake to 0.7 now that it is available in 0.6. There are many who prefer to use this.

07:13

<ChillerDragon> https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/1730

Add CMake (and a couple of other fixes) by heinrich5991 · Pull Req...

Fix #1586.

07:14

<ChillerDragon> It being added to ddnet came without much explanation o.O https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/630

Add overly simple CMakeLists.txt by heinrich5991 · Pull Request #63...

They probably don't work everywhere yet, but since we're not removing bam.lua for now, it shouldn't hurt, right?

<ChillerDragon> @Assa you still have not accepted the invite o.O Did the push notification piss you off somehow? :c

08:01

<ChillerDragon> @Assa the idea of the project is that those four

reactions could have been a merge in the community repo https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/3136#issuecomment-1656091198

✨ Add tuning variables for elasticity by AssassinTee · Pull Request...

Currently we are using nice fixed values for elasticity like 0.0 for players and 0.5 for flags. I am not a big fan of magic numbers, so I added tuning variables for them. I tested it with gametype ...

No you didn't piss me off, it's just a time issue right now. My workload varies a lot, there are weeks where I work 60 hours, and there are weeks where I sleep 20, currently I am collecting overtime hours

08:07

I accepted your invite for now. Please note, that I have two github accounts (one for work, one private) and I am probably missing some notifications. I am happy to do some reviews but currently have no time to implement any huge features myself

I wonder why you did your own mirror bot instead of just using the pull-app

08:17

https://github.com/wei/pull

<ChillerDragon> @Assa yea reviewers are needed more than new prs for now. Feel free to do as much as you want. Oh interesting I did not know about wei/pull

jtbx: it is a very political issue

Me: I wish for my own airplane Santa: oh, that's very expensive, do you have any other wishes? Me: I wish for an alternative for cmake, which is intuitive, requires less boilerplate and still works in 20 years Santa: which color do you want for you plane?

10:04

Jokes aside, there are other build-systems like mezon and bazel, but the main benefit of cmake is that most other projects use it and it's easier to integrate other projects. I personally like bam

10:05

In the end it doesn't matter, as long as thing.compile() works

<ChillerDragon> @Dune would it be cool for you if id invite you to https://github.com/teeworlds-community/teeworlds?

GitHub - teeworlds-community/teeworlds: A community fork of teeworl...

A community fork of teeworlds. Trying to have more active maintainers and merge prs faster. - teeworlds-community/teeworlds

What do you want to achieve? Beyond "more PRs more code"?

<ChillerDragon> a passing pipeline

13:21

<ChillerDragon> no compile errors or warnings

13:21

<ChillerDragon> more bugs fixed

Isnt there CI in teeworlds/teeworlds already?

<ChillerDragon> its not functional right now

Huh, how comes?

<ChillerDragon> its full of compiler warnings and oy is afk since 1 year to merge the fixes

Because of newer compilers?

<ChillerDragon> ye

That doesn't sound like the priority

<ChillerDragon> c++ and python deprecated so much that barley anything works

13:22

<ChillerDragon> that is priority for me to have a fresh codebase

I'm sure -std=c++11 fixes a lot of that

13:23

why? What's the point of "refreshing" code?

<ChillerDragon> that you can base mods on it or use it in any other active way

13:23

<ChillerDragon> have codebase that compiles without warnings

But that's exactly what makes mods hard to maintain

13:23

Unnecessary large code changes

13:24

Try updating mods from 075 to trunk now

<ChillerDragon> i wouldn't consider bug fixes unnecessary large code changes

I mean the other stuff

<ChillerDragon> which other stuff?

2024 compiler warnings arent bug fixed

<ChillerDragon> oh i consider it bug fixed and neccessary

Refreshing the codebase =/= fixing bugs, is it?

13:25

Ok, well guess we disagree on that

<ChillerDragon> but ye there is also actual crash bugs and so on that i would like to see fixed

I see

<ChillerDragon> yes so would you be offended if i sent you an invite @d_une?

I don't mind but I don't see the end goal

fwiw i have full control over the teeworlds github org

<ChillerDragon> comes with no obligations i think you should have it

13:26

<ChillerDragon> @Dune have some codebase that is overlooked by someone while oy is afk

To me if you develop something you should have an end product in mind

13:26

If the product is "fixed some bugs" I think very few people are interested

13:27

Unfortunately

<ChillerDragon> minus i dont think that helps unless you can get prs merged?

I think minus is hinting he's upset at the oy situation

maybe

<ChillerDragon> @Dune yes but thats the end product idea for me at least. Another idea is that my opinion does not matter too much. Everyone has 1 vote. All prs with 4 approvals can be merged,

just saying we could totally change things, it's not like we don't have access to anything

<ChillerDragon> that sounds like a dick move minus

That sounds like a good way to get (slightly) popular, yet bug-ridden features

13:29

since Oy is still reachable it should be at the minimum an ultimatum addressed to him, not a silent takeover

<ChillerDragon> yea lets see how it goes @Dune im also not sure if anything useful will come out of it. But i really want to have tried it

oy is obviously not doing anything in a useful capacity. moving on without him and stopping to wait on him would be the right call

<ChillerDragon> @Dune ye a silent takeover is not nice. But him being reachable is news to me? I sent him emails pinged him on github. He has ghosted me since years.

it's what i'd do if i had a stake in teeworlds, but i don't really have

Feels like that would at least require approval from matricks or teetow

13:30

Both are reachable as well

yes

<ChillerDragon> yes matricks and teetow are way more reachable than oy

13:31

<ChillerDragon> i can for the life of it not get ahold of oy in any way

Chillerdragon: you asked him to send a message, I did and told you the reply, which is pretty much what I expected it to be. It's going nowhere, with too little active, significant developers, so working to constantly merge minor PRs is a lot of meaningless work

<ChillerDragon> That does not count

13:32

<ChillerDragon> He ignores all direct contact and refuses to join irc

13:32

<ChillerDragon> thats not cool

If there is no vision for some end product, the work is just feel-good activity that isn't actually going to benefit anyone

<ChillerDragon> A non compiling codebase with a bunch of stale prs is what keeps developers away

Whats the point of Oy coming to say that to you if you dont want to hear it?

idk what you're referring to, dune, but even just getting fixes going is better than the nothing that's happening right now

Untrue, development was stale before Oy left

<ChillerDragon> @Dune because i havent seen the guy in years. I want to talk to him.

How so minus? Its a ton of regular work for something no one will update for anyway

<ChillerDragon> @Dune if oy does not want to do it thats fine. But then he should allow others to merge. Such as heinrich etc. Ik heinrich doesnt want to do it either but also he is not allowed to do so.

13:35

<ChillerDragon> Oy should grant a hand full ppl he trusts merge powers.

^

13:36

just never being there despite having the defacto authority and thus stalling the project is the real dick move

I agree it would be nice to have someone at least for the bugfixes

<ChillerDragon> Its not like the project would go to shit if heinrich, dune, robsti would be able to merge prs. Or does someone really think that?

Depends what PRs

<ChillerDragon> Does it?

heinrich does have owner permissions on github btw

<ChillerDragon> i know minus

kk

<ChillerDragon> but also does not help

Yeah its not a permission problem

<ChillerDragon> @Dune the prs can be bad if you trust the people that review them

if you clear it with optimally oy but otherwise also matricks and teetow, you have my support

<ChillerDragon> @Dune or are you saying your distrust in those ppl is so big that you think they would merge shitty prs?

I think oy would even accept a ruling from teetow/matricns

13:39

It's not distrust

<ChillerDragon> Or do you agree with my proposal @Dune if not what bothers you?

It is ideal that we have someone else that can review and merge technical PRs, yes. It looks better. In the end, that's pretty much all it does though

<ChillerDragon> You might not care about the code base starting to smell. But I do. Just because you don't get a 0.8 doesn't mean its not worth it.

13:43

<ChillerDragon> So you are saying its not enough to merge prs? Or no good?

I disagree with the idea that code bases that don't move "start to smell" or are bad because suddenly the compilers think some random stuff might be indicative of something that could perhaps be not safe

13:45

I'm saying even with someone merging PRs, we wouldn't get to have releases that people would want to update to / move teeworlds forwards

13:45

activity was already steadily declining at 074/075, it's mostly just ddnet now

13:50

building master on g++11.4.0 gave me no warnings, by the way

13:56

By the way, another pathway that hasn't been mentioned is to call it done and archive the repository, leaving the community to its well-maintained forks. https://osgameclones.com/ is full of such

Open Source Game Clones

List of open source clones and remakes of popular old-school games.

<ChillerDragon> @Dune even debian ships g++ 12.2.0

reading your conversation, it might be useful to expand the dev team of teeworlds, so oy doesn't have to be the one holding everything alone, but the stakes are high and there are obviously issues, where everyone has a different opinion about

<ChillerDragon> yea thats the point of the conversation :D

14:10

<ChillerDragon> at least my argument

14:10

<ChillerDragon> dunes argument is there is no problem right now or something like that

14:11

<ChillerDragon> what is "074/075" @d_une?

14:12

<ChillerDragon> @Dune there is no well maintained fork of teeworlds

14:13

<ChillerDragon> and that would then also shutdown teeworlds.com and steam?

14:13

<ChillerDragon> i dont like that idea

0.7.4 and 0.7.5

<ChillerDragon> a

archive =/= shutdown, it's just acknowledging the development has stopped. we could appoint someone for security fixes

14:14

just mentioning that option

14:14

archiving the forum is actually long due

<ChillerDragon> archiving the forum would be sad

there is a problem right now and development does not have to be stopped

14:15

the forum is dead though

<ChillerDragon> :c

the billions of existing spam accounts are a problem and no one really posts there anyway

I think dune is right, check the player numbers, all servers left are DDNet servers or bridged servers. There is currently nobody playing a default gamemmode

yeah, can we just archive it right away

14:16

like Assa says, a new release would have no significant effect

14:16

because no one is effectively playing 0.7.5 Teeworlds

<ChillerDragon> I don't need a new release

14:17

<ChillerDragon> Just less reasons for devs to base their mod on ddnet

14:17

<ChillerDragon> because ddnet has no pvp support

what's the point of active development if we're not targeting a release?

<ChillerDragon> ddnet is not a maintained version of teeworlds its something else

14:18

<ChillerDragon> @Dune a usable codebase

I'd say the 0.7.5 codebase is pretty usable

<ChillerDragon> that is welcoming to new contributors and players

14:18

<ChillerDragon> we agreed to disagree on that one already didnt we @Dune

I guess, yeah

ddnet is a forked version which expaned into it's own product. I would ship missing features into ddnet and call it a day

<ChillerDragon> or maybe i made it up im sleepy

14:19

<ChillerDragon> @Assa adding back teeworlds gameplay to ddnet is not straightforward

who is making forks off trunk teeworlds anyway nowadays?

14:19

I have seen very little mod development

<ChillerDragon> @Dune nobody

and those that do, I doubt they keep up with all the nightmareish changes that happened post 0.7.5

<ChillerDragon> well idk i dont have the numbers

14:20

<ChillerDragon> @fokkonaut is doing that for example

so, very little

I did until 3 years ago and saw no point of updating since, https://github.com/AssassinTee/catch64

<ChillerDragon> he has 32 players playing his fork right now @Dune

ws-client

<ChillerDragon> @fokkonaut is doing that for example

I dont keep up with it anymore

<ChillerDragon> but yes its not many ppl doing it

so I'm insisting, what's the point on merging PRs if (a) we're not targeting a release (b) no one cares to keep up with trunk teeworlds

+ its serverside only

<ChillerDragon> well i do care @Dune

14:22

<ChillerDragon> i am constantly annoyed by the compile errors i get on the trunk release

14:22

<ChillerDragon> warnings locally

but then it's just you, personally?

<ChillerDragon> that i know of yes

14:23

<ChillerDragon> i think all others were just so annoyed they abandoned the repo

14:23

<ChillerDragon> for that or another reason

14:23

<ChillerDragon> i can not really speak for others

14:25

<ChillerDragon> @Dune if you need a release then target a bugfix release that would be cool

14:26

<ChillerDragon> or editor2

14:26

<ChillerDragon> oy rejects all editor prs because editor2 is coming

14:27

<ChillerDragon> pick your reasons to merge prs especially the compile warnings and CI errors but you have to see that the current state is ugly.

14:28

<ChillerDragon> We all understand that you and oy and maybe a bunch of other people have no motivation to do so and thats cool. But then at least grant some ppl powers to quickly merge easy prs that fix such things.

14:28

<ChillerDragon> Why do I have to argue that its fucked up when the update copyright year pr gets out of date?

14:30

<ChillerDragon> Robyt3 did a good job at improving the code base and now has 11 stale prs.

14:31

<ChillerDragon> There is no way that in the current state development pace picks up. If oy waits with merges until there is devs I do not see how that would happen.

the core argument is that there is nothing significant a release with the devs we have would achieve

<ChillerDragon> I would call it significant.

even a complete editor2 wouldn't achieve anything significant imo

<ChillerDragon> If the repo wouldn't feel as dead.

it's just activity for the sake of it and for good looks then

14:33

I don't think that's a good reason

<ChillerDragon> I think thats a good reason.

14:33

<ChillerDragon> If you want another good reason pick another good reason.

14:33

<ChillerDragon> What would be a good reason for you?

ChillerDragon wants to work on teeworlds; oh no we can't have that the project is dead

14:36

is what i'm hearing

I think this pretty much shows part of the problem. someone is trying to do something, I'm not saying it'll work, I can easily see it not working

14:38

but he is shut down

14:38

and then we complain about "missing developers", no point to continue the project, no one would want to, anyways

we've had this conversation many times, but imo this is inverting the causality, developers were missing way before Oy went away

you are right now shutting down ChillerDragon

if Chiller had a project for something, I would be much more enthusiastic. What I'm hearing is activity for the sake of it

ChillerDragon is enthusiastic about teeworlds

14:41

he wants to develop it

14:41

I think ChillerDragon wouldn't describe his proposal as "activity for the sake of it"

14:41

if ChillerDragon described what you do as dismissively as you describe what he does, it wouldn't look good, I think (edited)

when I asked what the end goal of it was, I got "the repo wouldn't feel as dead", in his own words

<ChillerDragon> yes so it is more appealing for new devs

14:55

<ChillerDragon> and more useful for mod devs

14:56

<ChillerDragon> also i would like to see actual development and releases but i wouldn't wanna force stuff like that just for the sake of it

14:57

<ChillerDragon> the current state just feels very broken to me. As in i would not want to base my mod on something that is full of compiler warnings and the official fork has 6 failing CI pipelines.

14:57

<ChillerDragon> If I search for new software and it looks like the tw repo i usually search elsewhere.

14:57

<ChillerDragon> And i also mean as a user of the software not neccesarly as contributor.

14:58

<ChillerDragon> Not caring if there is a failing CI is like not caring about the game to me.

I just see a calamitous deadlock here with the development... it would take a lot to break that deadlock :D

<ChillerDragon> @Stiopa would you mind if i sent you an invite to teeworlds-community ? c:

You sent me already :D I just have other matters at hand

<ChillerDragon> woah did i?

15:31

<ChillerDragon> how assumptios of me lol

you sent me it after I said I like the initiative yesterday :p

<ChillerDragon> @Dune i have projects all the time. Or what do you mean by project? I maintain a bunch of tw mods.

15:34

<ChillerDragon> ah right @Stiopa look at me the sesitive dragon

15:35

<ChillerDragon> @Dune one projects of mine is explaining the tw code on yt and it is super embarrasing to say "yea ignore all the warnings nobody cares here"

15:36

<ChillerDragon> if you have a passing CI as a mod dev you get binaries from github for all platforms. Especially when you only use one os and have no contributors it is super valuable to have a passing CI

it's a cmake version error, right? I see bam-linux is passing

<ChillerDragon> thats one of the issues

15:37

<ChillerDragon> cmake version is fixed by this https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/3212

Fix CMP0148 by ChillerDragon · Pull Request #3212 · teeworlds/teewo...