Teeworlds - development

Teeworlds

discord.gg/teeworlds / development

For discussions around the development of the official Teeworlds

Between 2023-06-15 00:00:00Z and 2023-06-16 00:00:00Z

Frankly... doesn't have to be priority, but it should be clear if it's a yes or no, and why... https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2804 exists, has received positive feedback from plenty of people and is now waiting for tile RFC. No opinion given by Oy though... which is a shame imo.

✨ Add ice physics by AssassinTee · Pull Request #2804 · teeworlds/t...

Adds slippery hookable tiles and a nice client animation: a new solid hookable tile entities.png with new tile tunings ice_friction ice_control_speed ice_control_accel removes smoke trai...

00:09

Sometimes I wish there was a "MOTD" that talks about what the focus should be and actively encourages it. Maybe it could help bring more attention to resolving 0.7.6 or 0.8 issues, but noone seems to want to tackle them even now

00:10

I think I am rambling again, good night

Stiopa

But it seems noone wants to tackle them

Yeah. We have near zero manpower for large features, so we're stuck with a flood of tiny PRs that move buttons around

there is man power every once in a while, e.g. Robyt3

09:27

but it's not accepted

I specifically mentioned for large features/projects (like the ice tiles)

11:01

It was accepted for a good year but I suspect Oy did not see ROI for his peer reviewing at the time. A lot of code and UI changes

11:02

but it's hard to move forward with large project (admittedly, partly because of lack of direction/poor directions from Oy)

I meant that Robyt3 could have been one person who drives the project forward

11:18

if given access

I'm saying it's a chicken and egg issue. Oy would be more active if there was manpower for large stuff that's going somewhere imho

11:24

that was the case on 0.7 release

it became a chicken and egg issue

11:27

it wasn't all the time

11:27

oy intentionally left this project to die, and now it died

11:29

which is sad. I liked the project

I didn't particularly like the decisions and the vision for the project of Oy, but I'm not sure I agree with this: Oy wasnt a blocking factor after 0.7 release for a long time

11:33

or do you mean before 0.7?

Idk about "intentionally" but lack of communication ruins it for me. Feels as if Oy is indifferent. There is no "leaderly push" for anything. There are just issues that someone may try to do by either 1. Doing it yourself and hoping it will fit 2. Asking questions which might take weeks/months to answer (because the issue discussions stay dormant/end in a standstill)

Again though, this was different post-0.7 release

11:43

If I'm trying to understand what it's like in Oy's shoes, there isn't enough manpower to achieve a significant move forward, so constantly working on and responding to this project - he's been doing that for longer than any of us here, really - has got to be taxing for not much ROI

yes, but he's also not letting others help

11:45

that's the issue

Yeah I am just commenting how it's now That aside, I can understand his weariness But I expect him to either take some initiative or let someone take the initiative in that sense, while maintaining the "absolute power" There's still some people willing (or, until recently at least) - whose motivation could be used to drive the project forward, and if only there was someone who could('ve) harness(ed) that

11:52

Of course it's just a spike for activity for me. No idea how it was post 0.7 release or earlier.

https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=119733#p119733

12:04

that's 6+ years ago

heinrich5991

https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=119733#p119733

duh, these words were all around community for 6 years straight

Stiopa

Yeah I am just commenting how it's now That aside, I can understand his weariness But I expect him to either take some initiative or let someone take the initiative in that sense, while maintaining the "absolute power" There's still some people willing (or, until recently at least) - whose motivation could be used to drive the project forward, and if only there was someone who could('ve) harness(ed) that

Yeah, I can understand this sentiment. There could definitely be someone handling the minor PRs.

guys, i got off work at 8 today

12:53

good day

12:53

ok bye

8pm CST?

8pm where i stand

I assume that's CST given how early it is for us :p

ye, i've been complaining my 13 hour workhour in ddnet discord for two weeks now

13:02

although it was more like 16 or 17 on the worse day.

13:02

plus i haven't take weekend off for 5 weeks now

13:02

i think i'm dying

13:02

but today is a good day

surely no one actually works 16-17 hours, you're just zombying through?

if i was i can just get off work

13:03

it wasn't paid or counted

that gotta get super inefficient

i mean the overtime

13:04

it's alright, we basically finished our three month plan in one

13:04

plus a few days after today

13:06

i have a todo list of small tasks of the project breakdown, it has like 150 items now, we ticked 120 in the last month

13:08

we probably were doing 12 hours of work in 16 hours tho, so in a sense you might be right, but overall it's definitely faster than doing 6 hours of work in 8 (edited)

13:09

btw i'd like to specify i don't actually want to work like this

you maybe also shouldn't if you're able to

1

i can beat up my manager and get fired then it'll be fine

1

1

heinrich5991

https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=119733#p119733

I was more intelligent back then than I am now

hehe

13:47

insert drooling pepe (too poor for nitro) (edited)

we might need a Magnet

13:55

and Oy actually participating in conversations instead of pointlessly discussing it over his head. (edited)

13:58

it's either a mob against him or together for a better game. And when everyone is against you, it sucks.

jxsl13

and Oy actually participating in conversations instead of pointlessly discussing it over his head. (edited)

Oy made clear he's fine with the game dying of inactivity

pitchforks?

14:01

making ddnet more of a twnet?

jxsl13

we might need a Magnet

magnet and oy are sorta aligned on this stuff afaik

at least one is able to talk with Magnet

14:10

contrary to Oy

14:10

used to do that ingame but now I'm inactive for two years or so.

14:11

he is a big rust fanboy

14:11

fanMAN

the project needs someone in charge who doesn't want the game to just die, it's that simple.

don't think that's an accurate depiction of what Oy wants

14:24

I don't think Oy being any more active than what he was past 0.7 would have changed anything

14:24

developer activity had already largely stopped around the 0.7.4

14:25

There are outstanding issues that would make Teeworlds a significantly better game that have been tackled by no one through the years, because no one has had the combination of time, motivation and skills

Dune

Yeah, I can understand this sentiment. There could definitely be someone handling the minor PRs.

If that frees up Oy then that's absolutely great

Dune

don't think that's an accurate depiction of what Oy wants

When I started playing Teeworlds, there were usually just 2 servers with people playing - that was fine. If it goes back to that - still fine. It was never the aim to get a lot of players, it's a niche product, even though it attracted lots of players during time. People start and stop playing games, that's life. Games die and people move on.

that's a bit different from "wants the game to die"

"is okay with the game to die"

yeah

14:36

I agree with this

and with the current state where he can control it

14:36

he's letting it die

yeah

so apparently he wants the game to die rather than giving up control on it

Dune

I don't think Oy being any more active than what he was past 0.7 would have changed anything

but, counter point, does that change anything anyway?

I'm not asking for Oy to be more active, I think he should have given up control to someone, anyone

14:37

(if he's not active, which he is not)

heinrich5991

so apparently he wants the game to die rather than giving up control on it

I think matricks might also agree it's preferable for Teeworlds to continue that way rather than lose its identity (ddnet etc.)

14:37

I don't necessarily agree though

matricks found ddnet pretty cool

14:38

he actually played it a while ago

I think there's a real talking point in that his lack of activity wouldn't have changed anything - Oy was active when it mattered

it would have changed something

when? at which point?

Robyt3 was active

he was active after 0.7

at any point

so what, Robyt3 would have got his PRs in quicker (edited)

yes, then he'd have more motivation to work on more

I don't think that would have fundamentally changed anything

I have a huge motivation problem when my changes aren't merged in years

oy was reactive to robyt3 PR for a long time (what, 6 months at least?)

14:39

of course (edited)

14:39

but that wasn't initially the case

it was very much the case for the past 6 years or so

even after a long time the PRs were almost all minor fixes, minor improvements and a lot of code refactorings

additionally, no way of communication with Oy

you can't ask Oy to be continuously active for years when that's all the changes the code base is seeing

yes, they are minor because everything else needs discssion with an active maintainer

14:40

otherwise all your work could go down the drain because the maintainer doesn't like it

14:40

when I contribute to open source projects with larger changes, I always contact the maintainers first

14:40

whether they're even interested in the changes

14:41

this is simply not possible for teeworlds

developers were able to get major changes through after 0.7

and hasn't been for the past 6 years at least

14:41

veeery established developers

I disagree on that point, oy was on irc, we were on discord, robyt3 did not try to contact us despite us reaching out to him

14:42

and that's fine, but don't pretend there was a will for major features at the time

I had motivation for major features

14:42

e.g. https master

14:42

initially I did it for teeworlds

14:42

but I actually just completely lost motivation on it

14:42

until I worked on it for ddnet instead

heinrich5991

but I actually just completely lost motivation on it

yet at that time Oy was very active

where I could actually talk about the design of it

so why did you lose motivation?

This discussion is framed in "immediately after 0.7" era?

yeah afaik

Dune

so why did you lose motivation?

I don't know exactly. I remember that I changed my target from teeworlds to ddnet and it gave me hope that my changes might be merged and go live to actual players in finite amount of time

14:49

if Oy was very active during that time, then the problem seems to have been that I wasn't aware of it

this was right after the 0.7 release, right? afaik Oy was most active at that time I understand there are plenty of factors that can make ddnet more interesting to work with

15:02

my argument is that we're putting a lot of blame on Oy when really it was a lot of developers losing motivation for other reasons than Oy's reactivity (the reception and behaviour of the community being the biggest one for some of them)

15:02

also understandably working on ddnet has more impact because it was and is more widely used

the problem wasn't that ddnet had more players

15:04

but that my changes would probably be years from getting accepted

15:06

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/1395

HTTP master server list proof-of-concept by heinrich5991 · Pull Req...

This would help reduce the impact of DDoS attacks against the master servers because there are caching services available for HTTP (such as Cloudflare). [12:58:58] <@minus> okay, who's up...

15:06

original https masterserver PoC was from 2015

yes, just after 0.7. I feel like I rememember very clearly this was top oy activity where he was also merging everything because we had to rush 0.7.1

15:12

but that doesn't really matter, I reckon Oy was particularly difficult with some of your PRs (even if maybe not this one) and it makes sense that you felt more welcome in ddnet

15:13

I'm just trying to argue that it's not really Oy's inactivity that stuck Teeworlds development

I think it was a large factor

15:17

we drove everyone away who would be up for it, and now there's no one to take it up

15:17

sharing responsibility is a great way to encourage contributors

heinrich5991

sharing responsibility is a great way to encourage contributors

Very fair

heinrich5991

we drove everyone away who would be up for it, and now there's no one to take it up

I think we disagree on how we remember things then

15:26

There was a time we had a bunch of devs around and stopped being active, while oy still was. I think we can count rand, redix, lordsk and myself in that group

I do think the revolting attitude towards Oy is a bit excessive. I can't blame people for wanting change like that, but I do think it's excessive.

15:44

I do mourn how excellent PRs like @Assa's more ambitious issues like https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/2790 or https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2804 Have been largely... ignored? No "maybe for 0.9", no "I'll see it later" no anything. Silence is arguably worse than a straight "no". (edited)

1

15:46

There arguably was an uptick of interest in the past, but it was drowned in the vicious cycle

a lot of my wishes for the game end in compatability issues/breaking with ddnet, on both ends

I am not sure how to interpret that

you pinged me

15:47

at least my one line bug fix was merged recently

Ah. Kind of intentional. I do like getting more voices into discussion

so I did something ig

15:49

this PR was open for over a year https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/3146 , staying motivated is hard when the simplest things don't have impact (edited)

Yeah that has been touched upon

15:52

I think it goes without saying

15:53

Sorry to disrupt the chicken and egg argument btw

@Stiopa Getting a new major release and the amount of content that goes with it requires a minimum of a reliable developer workforce, and imho Oy losing interest happened after the amount of active development dropped below that threshold that made 0.8 non-viable

15:57

also people underestimate the amount of work reviewing these PRs is. when Oy came back and merged a good dozen (!) of PRs I heard someone complaining they only merged a dozen and not the whole stack. This is a core issue: the community constantly underestimate the effort, acts very entitled and shits all over the devs

I am very very much not saying Oy should work harder

15:58

I'm saying Oy should have appointed someone to help him

Oh, certainly. By the time those PRs appeared the Oy activity was already patchy, and if the uptick of partially fresh contributor's activity did not convince him - it's understandable. Regrettable, but understandable

Stiopa

Oh, certainly. By the time those PRs appeared the Oy activity was already patchy, and if the uptick of partially fresh contributor's activity did not convince him - it's understandable. Regrettable, but understandable

that's what I think happened

16:00

when there were upticks of activity, Oy followed for years, until ~2020

heinrich5991

I am very very much not saying Oy should work harder

Well, a few others may have a revolting attitude...

16:00

But yeah

16:01

I do agree with heinrich though. If there is a person willing to put up with this inactivity and are competent enough - by all means Oy should have an "aide"

yeah, I agree

heinrich5991

I have a huge motivation problem when my changes aren't merged in years

I agree with this one

everyone does, it's not a point of argument

We can't make or expect Oy to appoint someone. But I think we can agree that if he doesn't do it and keeps being inactive, the issues will persist

I think we can expect that, but I insist that the state Teeworlds is in is not, imo, the result of Oy's inactivity, but that it is the other way around

16:05

it's easy to point finger to Oy now when there have been the occasional one or two big PRs that would have been worth him handling but he is only a symptom of what happened

16:05

the current state of github is not representative of what happened after 0.7.4

16:06

Oy has been reactive for many months when it was just one person doing PRs

16:06

And pushing back very little on the design decisions of anyone that was willing to contribute, too (except heinrich, arguably)

16:07

My bigger complaint with Oy is not his inactivity, but his refusal to have any strong direction over the years when there were enough active devs

16:10

and for that reason, yes, I think that if heinrich had replaced Oy as a maintainer on release, Teeworlds would have been much more alive today

What solutions are there for us who want to continue the project but can't cuz Oy is gatekeeping it?

just a simple question but who does manage everything, like:

the website hosting (who contributes)
Master servers hosting
etc.. It's actually a very bad move but in case Oy really doesn't want to do anything about this, we can certainly go forward without him, just by forking teeworlds

16:19

That would be the worst case

"forking teeworlds" is exactly what I've been thinking of for the past years. (edited)

Hmmm. Yeah, I can agree that his actions are a symptom of that and that he isn't to blame, but I can't help but think that he is at the very least complicit in the issues teeworlds faces today. He can't be entirely blamed for his inactivity, but I can't also say that if he was more active, the current state would be better? I'm myself a bit torn on the issue. Especially since I really don't have the full picture - I am not aware of stuff that happened years ago. Ultimately, I don't want to play blame game and burn bridges. It would be best if Oy would end up at some point joining irc for a chance of discussion with people wanting change. But nothing will come out of it if people start making demands.

Zatline

"forking teeworlds" is exactly what I've been thinking of for the past years. (edited)

go ahead, there are hundres of those

ReiTW

just a simple question but who does manage everything, like:

the website hosting (who contributes)
Master servers hosting
etc.. It's actually a very bad move but in case Oy really doesn't want to do anything about this, we can certainly go forward without him, just by forking teeworlds

hosting is all community afaik, server administration is minus

16:23

the DNS is paid by matricks, so if you really want to go and conflict Oy on this, matricks will have the last word by design I think

Dune

hosting is all community afaik, server administration is minus

some of it is Kottizen iirc

Stiopa

Hmmm. Yeah, I can agree that his actions are a symptom of that and that he isn't to blame, but I can't help but think that he is at the very least complicit in the issues teeworlds faces today. He can't be entirely blamed for his inactivity, but I can't also say that if he was more active, the current state would be better? I'm myself a bit torn on the issue. Especially since I really don't have the full picture - I am not aware of stuff that happened years ago. Ultimately, I don't want to play blame game and burn bridges. It would be best if Oy would end up at some point joining irc for a chance of discussion with people wanting change. But nothing will come out of it if people start making demands.

Thing is, when Oy was active, the situation was better but not good enough for a major release anymore. So I don't blame him for going inactive, even though, yes, chicken and egg, it participates to the current situation

Dune

go ahead, there are hundres of those

"hundrets" I think you can't compare that to github forks, since you can do one simple for normal PRs and just for fun

I mean, every modified client or server is, by all definitions, a fork of Teeworlds

16:25

it's just not claiming to be Teeworlds

Dune

the DNS is paid by matricks, so if you really want to go and conflict Oy on this, matricks will have the last word by design I think

well I guess matricks would listen to all of us

16:26

he already knows that Oy is just afk (as we spoke to him recently on ddnet discord) (edited)

I don't think matricks wants anything to have with it... I would rather stay out

yep

16:26

and guess why?

And if anything, him talking to Oy about it I think would come sooner than supporting any fork in a "fight for teeworlds"

imho I think people here underestimate the willingness of Oy to keep working like he has before if it would mean getting the development back on track and a real roadmap being doable and everything

Dune

go ahead, there are hundres of those

The problem is similar to that of forking the Bitcoin cain it seems or any decentralized project in that regard, once you attempt to fork it, it ain't the original so the consensus has to be at least 51% ideally more within the community.

ugh, please don't bring bitcoin into the chat again like the other times

lmaoo

Dune

ugh, please don't bring bitcoin into the chat again like the other times

xD

ddnet is a successful fork of teeworlds

16:29

the majority of the community is over there and I doubt this will change for some very deep reasons

General point still stands. Not being "the same project" has its pros and cons, and obviously a fork trying to be teeworlds but with more active dev would not want the pros of being official

And at this point, why do you want to do this on Teeworlds and not on ddnet?

That being said, I find the attitude a bit like burning bridges

Dune

ugh, please don't bring bitcoin into the chat again like the other times

u mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJuPc3ho61E&pp=ygUZRXJpayB2YW4gdmVsemVuIHRlZXdvcmxkcw%3D%3D

Stiopa

That being said, I find the attitude a bit like burning bridges

Yeah, I agree

ReiTW

u mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJuPc3ho61E&pp=ygUZRXJpayB2YW4gdmVsemVuIHRlZXdvcmxkcw%3D%3D

~~let's not derail into shitty crypto politics, this isn't the place~~ nvm thought it was another video (edited)

16:32

do you know why matricks quit teeworlds development? @Stiopa

16:32

or at least what made him

The community, especially ddosses?

wasn't it all the shitty ddos related stuff

yeah

well there's many people who really wants to improve that side, obviously it is not as easy but matricks wouldn't be alone against that

16:34

(like heinrich, learath, Davide, etc..)

I know other people that have also stopped to dev on teeworlds projects to move on to other communities that are much more supportive of their devs

ReiTW

well there's many people who really wants to improve that side, obviously it is not as easy but matricks wouldn't be alone against that

ddos is just a symptom

Like, arguably the "worst" thing oy is doing is probably the "not getting any helper for maintaining" imo

today? yes 5 years ago? no

And even then it's not an arrogant "I don't want any help" or something. I just don't think this is anything to burn bridges over.

16:40

All I want to say is that we all (as a community of people wanting dev to resume) sometimes get a bit riled up~ and that this attitude won't help if we get to talk to oy actively on irc or something

Do you disagree that, if Oy came back today and was constantly merging every PR within a day, it would still not be enough dev workforce for a major release?

I don't disagree. It wouldn't be that simple at least (edited)

He also needs to comment on bigger feature issues and PRs more to give some guidance

yeha, ideally

To get renewed interest and workforce it would not be immediate and the results wouldn't be immediately rewarding

16:44

What could help is general notion that stuff is being done and it is progressing at a reasonable pace

16:45

And even then it's a gamble whether the larger issues concerning a major release, especially on the technical side, could be overcome (More technical stuff like addressing edge cases or refactorings in the more dated parts of the codebase)

did a small paint to get my view point across

16:46

Image attachment

isn't there like a big fat protocol bug flying around since 0.7.0?

imo Oy's activity going down came after the devs activity dwindling

jxsl13

isn't there like a big fat protocol bug flying around since 0.7.0?

issue #?

nheir I think

16:47

opened it

The server info one?

16:48

I don't think that's an issue since 0.7.0

I think something aling the lines, too long ago since I read that

16:48

along

16:48

0.7.0 introduced 64 players, I think it had something to do with that

We probably need the HTTPS master server for the next release

yeah

Robyt3

We probably need the HTTPS master server for the next release

heinrich worked on it, iirc it doesn't need to be compatibility breaking

16:49

that was back in january 2019

jxsl13

0.7.0 introduced 64 players, I think it had something to do with that

Ah, maybe I remember it slightly wrong. I think it was much exacerbated by increasing the size of names and clans in memory (edited)

1

How would automatic recording of race be done?

16:53

Handled by a separate demo recorder that cuts a demo to the ending?

Pragmatically, copy ddnet code

1

16:54

No need to reinvent the wheel

16:54

Less merge conflicts are also better

1

16:54

Race begin and end are send as messages I think, so it shouldn't be hard

Asking as it is part of 0.7.6 milestone issue

16:55

I sometimes think about those in the back of my head - not that I plan to do them.

ReiTW

he already knows that Oy is just afk (as we spoke to him recently on ddnet discord) (edited)

When

Stiopa

When

Was when he came in voice chat

17:01

We talked directly to him

How recently though

Like 2months ago

Simply curious

Stiopa

I sometimes think about those in the back of my head - not that I plan to do them.

what prevents you from doing them? I mean someone has to take the iniative for open milestones eventually.

Ah 2 months

Zatline

what prevents you from doing them? I mean someone has to take the iniative for open milestones eventually.

Some - lack of experience

17:03

I did the recording thing but it was a horrible hack

17:03

So I gave up

fair point

And partially lack of motivation

speaking of which... https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/1911

Nowadays I have my own project elsewhere which is getting official attention and... well I feel like I am at the top and I wanna keep working there so as not to fall from grace haha

where are actually the vector graphics source files?

in a private directory

f3 ban

17:04

affinity designer good

I thought about the compression thing a bit

Dune

speaking of which... https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/1911

I commented on that one and confirmed the issue is done, it should be moved to 0.8 milestone.

Stiopa

Nowadays I have my own project elsewhere which is getting official attention and... well I feel like I am at the top and I wanna keep working there so as not to fall from grace haha

yeah, it's obviously more rewarding

But Idk what exactly it means

Zatline

I commented on that one and confirmed the issue is done, it should be moved to 0.8 milestone.

it doesn't need a major release to be fixed, so this shouldn't be piggybacked on a compatibility breaking change

17:06

Oy correctly marked this as 0.7.6

piggy bag it now

And I didn't feel like asking a question on the compression issue about something I am woefully unprepared for and the response I would get might take a lot of time to... materialise

what compression?

jxsl13

what compression?

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/1979

Improve map compression · Issue #1979 · teeworlds/teeworlds

Improve map compression, compress items(f.e. envelopes).

Dune

it doesn't need a major release to be fixed, so this shouldn't be piggybacked on a compatibility breaking change

yeah but it would take a lot of work to fix those minor bugs for 0.7 tilests as I had remade some tilesets completly with the new layout, this is why there needs to be better communications too.

hm

This issue. Sometimes I daydream if I could tackle bigger issues

17:07

But it is just that - daydreaming

Zatline

yeah but it would take a lot of work to fix those minor bugs for 0.7 tilests as I had remade some tilesets completly with the new layout, this is why there needs to be better communications too.

thing is, because others don't have access to the svgs, you're the only one who can do these bugfixes

I haven't touched C++ in like 2.5 years D: (edited)

Stiopa

This issue. Sometimes I daydream if I could tackle bigger issues

Yeah, realistically very few of us could handle all of the issues in Teeworlds. I believe oy could

17:08

I think that's a difficult skill to find to put someone as actual maintainer

17:08

It took matricks a long time

what's the reasoning behind the svgs being not open source?

artists don't want

Dune

thing is, because others don't have access to the svgs, you're the only one who can do these bugfixes

not true, Android has access, Ravie has, Landil has and the link to the source svg's is also in the developer forum somewhare if I remeber correctly.

pretty weird.

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-data-svg/tree/main/mapres

ddnet-data-svg/mapres at main · ddnet/ddnet-data-svg

Contribute to ddnet/ddnet-data-svg development by creating an account on GitHub.

1

okay, so just you and a couple of others who are decidedly inactive

gerdoe

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-data-svg/tree/main/mapres

is that android's?

Sometimes I daydream and think about trying to do bigger fish just to encourage others who may be more skilled; to do the same

17:11

(Read: the water PR)

Dune

is that android's?

half of mapres redraws are Voxel's

Stiopa

Sometimes I daydream and think about trying to do bigger fish just to encourage others who may be more skilled; to do the same

or to learn to do the bigger fishes :)

17:11

but it's hard

17:11

being stuck is so frustrating

pretty weird, that ddnet has the official files open sourced if I see correctly (edited)

17:11

and teeworlds doesnt?

gerdoe

half of mapres redraws are Voxel's

redraws are such a large amount of unnecessary work, I find that upsetting

jxsl13

pretty weird, that ddnet has the official files open sourced if I see correctly (edited)

they're redraws apparently

ah, k

yeah, since there's no original svgs in public xd

yep.

gotta ask the artists, maybe they don't really care

they want to keep control over the svgs apparently

17:13

I find this incompatible with the open-source mindset, but artists and Oy disagree

17:13

so we got into the absurd situation where some people went through the massive pain of redrawing them

they also have redrawn default tee skins

I find it cool if my code is used in other people's code, wonder why it's not the same for art.

to make 4k remakes and easier skin... modification in 0.6 i think

there were a lot of great skin artists in the forum even without the original files

17:15

might have been even greater with available source files where you can learn to draw and stuff

17:16

and start small

17:17

press enter once in a while, Zatline xD

2

17:20

I am fake writing by typing garbage

jxsl13

I am fake writing by typing garbage

xd

I don't mind sharing the svg's openly but I'd not want to make that decision alone in sharing all of them, I basically went along with the way Landil handled it all the years keeping the svg's internal for artists access only. saying "they want to keep control over the svgs" is not a nice thing to say, because that's not necessarily true.

gatekeeping who is considered "an artist" kind of

17:21

imo

17:22

would be cool if people uad access but well we are becoming more of a niche

17:22

had

That being said, if someone approached me, encouraging me to try and contribute to reliven the repo and try to get some activity, I would probably consider and commit to it. But only if I have time and someone else also would actively commit

I already tried to reliven the community a bit with the water PR, if that was successful, it is not for me to judge

it was a cool time

17:23

and a lot of effort

the ice was cooler than the water PR imo

jxsl13

gatekeeping who is considered "an artist" kind of

not everyonne has the experience to be an artist and do official work, that's not gatekeeping it's quality control it's same with coding, if you I feel someone has the talent to be an artist I'll recruit him so I did with Ravie.

it's a pun, don't take it seriously

1

Quality control can be done on a PR level

1

now we're stuck with pretty much no available artists for open issues (edited)

being an artist can happen without people having to prove that they are artists before getting access to the repo

jxsl13

and a lot of effort

Considering someone mentioned water near matricks on ddnet and that the news spread there... I see it as a success in that regard ✊

haha

jxsl13

Quality control can be done on a PR level

not when we are working internaly on graphics, which is faster and more effeciant.

Wish ice was mentioned near matricks tho

and not necessarily everyone who would use the source files would want to contribute to the official repo but maybe create their own tiles, skins etc.

I feel ice is cooler for the game, but water is p cool too

17:26

I would love both

really, it was just a pun :p

would opening access to the files speaking against working in a group internally?

Dune

really, it was just a pun :p

Pun but generally I agree

you did great work with your PR, stiopa

17:26

water looked harder to implement

some good artists might join in in the fun if they had the opportunity, I'd say

jxsl13

would opening access to the files speaking against working in a group internally?

it would mean zatline effectively loses his veto power on any significant graphics contribution to teeworlds

17:27

but future contributors can be pointed to the redraws, I guess

Dune

you did great work with your PR, stiopa

The code is wonky and hacky but the community aspect was great

17:28

Also thanks to @Zatline the great maps and idea sharing

Dune

you did great work with your PR, stiopa

he really did

And ofc to plenty others who gave me feedback

Stiopa

That being said, if someone approached me, encouraging me to try and contribute to reliven the repo and try to get some activity, I would probably consider and commit to it. But only if I have time and someone else also would actively commit

I already tried to reliven the community a bit with the water PR, if that was successful, it is not for me to judge

your water mod was really impressive

And ofc graphics

actually it still is

veto graphics PRs. (edited)

gerdoe

actually it still is

fluid simulation is not that easy imho

There's some merit to having graphics done by a few people - more consistency I suppose

It has pros and cons

Yeah

17:36

As does everything

ravie has really teeish style kekw

Stiopa

Wish ice was mentioned near matricks tho

I think he would have liked it more :p

where are the C4 explosives?

17:38

sticky bombs in Teeworlds

gerdoe

ravie has really teeish style kekw

That's why he's an artist, it's the minimum that I want to see if anyone wants to contribute graphicly.

18:20

It sounds harsh but quality requires strict guidelines. Ravie has been a great help so far and I hope he'll be in the future, he has been contributing a lot behind closed doors, and probably is with Stiopa one of the main factors why I haven't left the project yet. (edited)

plenty of open source projects have quality guidelines in their PRs. I've never seen one whitelist artists

18:41

as it stands here we have issues like minor bugs that no one can fill because you won't do it or let anyone else do (edited)

What does ravie 's stuff looks like

pretty good

Any example ?

imagine a day when all artists stop doing stuff for tw.

Rip

18:44

Pretty love insanity's stuff, she does pictures for KoG and blockworlds

hm, Insahnity, I see

jxsl13

imagine a day when all artists stop doing stuff for tw.

happened for entire years

ReiTW

Any example ?

https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12250

Graphics by Ravie (Page 1) — Graphics — Teeworlds Forum

Graphics by Ravie (Page 1) — Graphics — Teeworlds Forum — Everything Teeworlds!

I'm on her discord, still don't see much art D: everything's happening on other discord servers, always D:

Ah yeah he's good at making skins wow

jxsl13

I'm on her discord, still don't see much art D: everything's happening on other discord servers, always D:

Sadly yes

18:47

It's good for illustrations tho

18:47

Eg. Our logo :

Image attachment

cool

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/2584

Fix/improve data dir detection · Issue #2584 · teeworlds/teeworlds

When there's a data dir from an old version in cwd and you start tw in a different path it doesn't detect the correct one via argv[0]. It should probably check other provided paths too.

18:51

this one doesn't seem clear to me. what constitutes a correct dir? a data folder that doesn't lack anything, or is this a matter of priority? (edited)

Btw it was funny matricks's reaction about stuff he made for tw

wat

Like sending sound id & position from server to client, he was like "damn i'm bad at coding" xD

D:

18:53

more context

18:53

sarcasm?

Seems like he's off since april 15th on ddnet discord, but it's really interesting to talk with him

or proud

No no it was when we were voice chatting with him

18:53

We kinda showed him how the game is nowadays

18:54

He's really cool

Did the game do that as well back in the days?

Ig so

or how was it different?

It still does now

always has (edited)

I just doubt there to be a much better way, is there?

From what he said if I understood well, he went too far into making a game engine, and at some point he decided to just drop all of that and do a game instead (teeworlds)

jxsl13

I just doubt there to be a much better way, is there?

You could handle sound client-side directly ig

it's pretty heavily optimized, imo

Dune

as it stands here we have issues like minor bugs that no one can fill because you won't do it or let anyone else do (edited)

I won't do it becouse for me it seems a waste of time fixing minor bugs for a minor release that nobody cares about, my focus has been on 0.8 since the day 0.7 main issues were largely fixed. If you want to shit on me for that do it, the bugs are fixed but require 0.8 as the tileset layout has changed.

if you don't want to fix bugs, let other people do

@jxsl13 maybe pinging him on ddnet will wake him up again :p, with his giant screen

18:58

Also showed him moving Tiles on kog he was like wtf

I'm open to share all the svg's leading up to 0.7 that's not the problem, if you think that is the problem.

I welcome this change in policy

would be cool if people had at least some, must not be your active working files. Just some starting points from where to learn and to see how the pros do what.

1

19:01

get some pointers in their declined prs xD

19:01

on

it must be the up-to-date files if we want the tileset bugs to be fixed, obviously

Dune

it must be the up-to-date files if we want the tileset bugs to be fixed, obviously

with up-to-date you mean that of 0.7

yes, the ones used for 0.7(.5) (edited)

yeah when I speak of 0.7 I'm including the minor releases

19:04

so 0.7.x is what I mean

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2277

Add more sound options for chat by edg-l · Pull Request #2277 · tee...

I noticed a lack of sound options so I added them.

oh wow matricks has forked ddnet

19:36

I looked at the 0.7.6 milestone and a lot of issues just seem... half-fixed?

yeah, it's not a hard limit either

19:37

there isn't anything concrete barring a release, really

19:37

0.7.6 is a bit of a fuck you to mods who are going to try and update though

it's just kind of frustrating seeing issues half fixed with nothing being done to decide what should be the final solution to such problem...

Dune

0.7.6 is a bit of a fuck you to mods who are going to try and update though

what fuck you's have been given to mods besides an official number change to 0.7.6?

massive code refactorings

right

anyone trying to update their mod to 0.7.6 will feel discouraged and give up on their mod being up to date (some have already given up on trunk) (edited)

mooostly client side though... right?

I think everywhere?

19:39

not sure though

I know clients will feel the new font etc changes

19:39

the antiping is neat but off by default

19:39

wait. is antiping stuff in master or only on redix's PR?

but updating to 0.7.6 might be about as tough as updating to a hypothetical 0.8: you'd want to rewrite the mod on top of vanilla rather than merge in the changes

Stiopa

wait. is antiping stuff in master or only on redix's PR?

did it get merged? I didn't think so

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2725

oh nvm!

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2650

19:42

also

19:42

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2726

19:42

not sure if any of those is enabled by default

19:42

still a neat hypothetical feature

yeah, true, there are a few gems we could get to the general public

19:44

ideally we'd be prepared to redirect some dev effort to somewhere useful

19:44

because releases always proc some contributor interests (plus the "huh, oy's around?")

19:44

and it has some positive loopback mechanics

so what you're saying is that we need more releases?

we were trying to keep up a fast-paced release rate

19:45

that stopped when almost all the devs got discouraged

until dev interest fell after yeah

19:47

how much coordination does a release like 0.7.x require ?

not that much, it's just oy and I talking

19:48

it's good to have some promotional material but we don't always do

19:49

it's mostly me doing the work tbh, I can do that

19:51

the steam release is extra pain and I don't remember all the commands so that'll take some effort

19:51

and we need a volunteer for mac as well

Honestly, I think 0.7.6 would be neat entirely for the reason that it would probably lead to creation of fresh 0.7.7

(edited)

19:53

so, rather pragmatic reason

yeah I understand

19:54

but do we want a 0.7.7?

19:54

there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done in a 0.7.6/7 that can alter the course teeworlds has taken

also; my response to "people not wanting to update to 0.7.6" would be "give them a reason to" but obviously... manpower issues et al

Dune

there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done in a 0.7.6/7 that can alter the course teeworlds has taken

elaborate?

19:54

reverse its fate?

Stiopa

also; my response to "people not wanting to update to 0.7.6" would be "give them a reason to" but obviously... manpower issues et al

yeah, it chicken and eggs a bit with non-backwards changes

19:55

teeworlds is all about user content nowadays and has been since what, 0.5

I suppose 0.8 milestone doesn't help much

19:57

the official downloads being only from master servers

19:58

adding new gameplay features would be neat I suppose, but what if ddnet just merges that instead of updating

ddnet isn't going to "update" either way, it's pretty different software at this point (even if they wanted to)

I can probably help with the steam release. might also be able to bug someone for doing mac builds

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