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Teeworlds
discord.gg/teeworlds / development
For discussions around the development of the official Teeworlds
Between 2022-06-28 00:00:00Z and 2022-06-29 00:00:00Z
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jxsl13 2022-06-28 07:01:02Z
insert sad emoji
👍 1
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ReiTW 2022-06-28 12:19:57Z
@heinrich5991 why so, Idk much but you seem to be the one that did so many things for this game
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ReiTW
@heinrich5991 why so, Idk much but you seem to be the one that did so many things for this game
heinrich5991 2022-06-28 12:25:19Z
https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=119740#p119740
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heinrich5991
https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=119740#p119740
Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:34:14Z
it's unfortunate and I think it is a totally understandable reasoning
12:35
I wouldn't pass my work onto someone not on the same page, if possible! that being said, I think that the inactivity might be hurting development way more
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 12:36:36Z
I didn't feel we weren't on the same page
12:37
I think he thought that I'd develop teeworlds the ddnet way, but I don't think this was a reasonable assumption going by my PRs etc. to teeworlds. also we never actually talked to each other about it…
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:37:52Z
it's not like talking to oy is easy
12:38
considering he... uh... disappears for months or end
12:38
and rarely enters bridge
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 12:38:17Z
that's basically the reason for the thread. and that was in 2016
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:38:33Z
I realize
12:38
not much haschanged
12:39
https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/3022
Maintaining teeworlds · Issue #3022 · teeworlds/teeworlds
Hey @oy, don't you want to give @Robyt3 a chance to maintain teeworlds, he's really activly pushing new prs and fixes stuff very quickly. I think this is a great chance for teeworld...
12:39
and this is still an active issue :)
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Stiopa
and rarely enters bridge
Dune 2022-06-28 12:42:55Z
he was regularly on IRC at that time, nowadays less so
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Stiopa
and this is still an active issue :)
Dune 2022-06-28 12:43:40Z
it's not really active, oy just doesn't close such issues
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Dune
it's not really active, oy just doesn't close such issues
Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:44:36Z
Fair enough. But I think it's still good to reflect on
12:44
seeing how... I feel like contributions nowadays are even more rare than before :)
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Dune 2022-06-28 12:45:38Z
the maintainer role requires a large set of skills that few people have anyway, it's a tough replacement
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Stiopa
seeing how... I feel like contributions nowadays are even more rare than before :)
Dune 2022-06-28 12:45:48Z
they are, it's a vicious circle of motivation
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:47:55Z
I recognize that. and I do agree that it is a vicious circle the circle needs a shakeup like a new version being released (0.7) temporarily got the development rolling
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Dune 2022-06-28 12:48:56Z
that's true, but that is also in part because it was really bad and needed a lot of quick fixes
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Dune
that's true, but that is also in part because it was really bad and needed a lot of quick fixes
Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:53:17Z
fair enough. That being said it seems like the 0.8 milestone has not moved one bit and won't be anytime soon?
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Dune 2022-06-28 12:53:24Z
yes
12:54
1. I don't see anyone around developing enough features to justify a major release (edited)
12:55
2. and there is a complete lack of directions regarding gameplay additions since matricks departure which make releases uninteresting for the general public, even when there is a large code diff (edited)
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:56:03Z
most certainly skin change was cool but not "woah!"
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Dune 2022-06-28 12:57:02Z
and that's the biggest woah most players had in 0.7, according to a bit of polling after release
12:57
doesn't justify throwing 7 years of mod content away
12:57
especially since it also throws 7 years of skin content..
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:57:35Z
which is why we see a magnitude of players in 0.6 :)
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Dune 2022-06-28 12:57:39Z
yes
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 12:58:39Z
https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/5403
Draft: Implement Ice Material by AssassinTee · Pull Request #5403 ·...
Implement Ice based on #5313 Ice skids: Should be visually equal to my video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WixRWjyqm1o Yes, this looks like a lot, but most comes from the base PR. Just Review ...
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12:59
if these ddnet pull requests go forward I think that main teeworlds will essentially be nailed in the coffin
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Dune 2022-06-28 12:59:37Z
"main teeworlds" has been like that for years and nothing will change
12:59
it costs too much to break compatibility
13:00
we'd need too much dev power
13:00
0.7 attracted a lot of vanilla players but they all left after getting smashed by old players, that's the curse of old games
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:01:39Z
I can confirm. There is about a few hours of full ctf5 game everyday and new players get destroyed
13:01
at least in the past the old and new players would not mix together that much :)
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:01:57Z
yeah, not much to do short of a matchmaking system that we don't have the playerbase for
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:02:00Z
because there was a variety
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:02:09Z
yes, but that's not a misdesign of sorts
13:02
it's just the game aging
13:02
same issue happens in old WoW
13:02
the lower level worlds would be empty because 95% of the population would be max lvl
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Zatline 2022-06-28 13:04:06Z
why are we not trying to make dev meetings and get new people involved like Stiopa, Assa and Robyt3 as part of the team making decisions working on goals together .. wouldn't that be a start? I would be so motivated to make new maps for 0.8 do graphics and all that but I need assurance that shit is happening else I'm not motivated as I'm feeling I'm wasting my time
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:05:03Z
That is fair enough, the aging part is independent but the game failing to attract and keep new playerbase in the first place is also part of the problem were there more servers in the first place for new players, there could be less stark contrast? Also, to add onto the mod argument: mods helped alleviate the "skill issue". When I was a new I would play tons of 0.6 mods where I wouldn't be destroyed by the hardline vanilla pros
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Zatline
why are we not trying to make dev meetings and get new people involved like Stiopa, Assa and Robyt3 as part of the team making decisions working on goals together .. wouldn't that be a start? I would be so motivated to make new maps for 0.8 do graphics and all that but I need assurance that shit is happening else I'm not motivated as I'm feeling I'm wasting my time
Dune 2022-06-28 13:05:11Z
not enough dev power
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:06:02Z
to justify getting a meeting
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Stiopa
That is fair enough, the aging part is independent but the game failing to attract and keep new playerbase in the first place is also part of the problem were there more servers in the first place for new players, there could be less stark contrast? Also, to add onto the mod argument: mods helped alleviate the "skill issue". When I was a new I would play tons of 0.6 mods where I wouldn't be destroyed by the hardline vanilla pros
Dune 2022-06-28 13:06:05Z
the game attracted a lot of new players/newbies back during 0.7 release, it just didn't keep them because they got smashed by a very aged population
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:06:42Z
I wonder whether the game had mods for 0.7 then, would more players had been kept
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:06:46Z
and yeah even 10 years ago vanilla/instagib was still rough on newbies who already deserted it for more casual mods
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Stiopa
I wonder whether the game had mods for 0.7 then, would more players had been kept
Dune 2022-06-28 13:07:08Z
well, yes if you could magically keep the 0.6 mods
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Dune
not enough dev power
Zatline 2022-06-28 13:07:15Z
that's why it's important to reecruit new devs that are motivated as the names I mentioned
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Zatline
that's why it's important to reecruit new devs that are motivated as the names I mentioned
Dune 2022-06-28 13:07:35Z
still not enough to make the required large features
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:07:57Z
the 0.8 milestone is daunting
13:08
and how would the 0.8 features be implemented even? on the master branch or on separate branch?
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 13:08:59Z
I think adding more devs would help in getting more devs
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Stiopa
I wonder whether the game had mods for 0.7 then, would more players had been kept
Dune 2022-06-28 13:09:22Z
0.7 would not be nearly as successful as it was (and by all accounts, not much) without the large efforts to port some client and server mods
13:09
I doubt we'd have people to do that all over again
13:09
and even then we lost most of the content
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Stiopa
and how would the 0.8 features be implemented even? on the master branch or on separate branch?
Dune 2022-06-28 13:10:18Z
that's trivial, just two branches
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:10:33Z
sounds good
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:11:07Z
it took like a year to recreate some of the basic high-demand content to make 0.7 bearable
13:11
from chiller, fokko, redix, myself and more
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heinrich5991
I think adding more devs would help in getting more devs
Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:11:28Z
I feel like having a reliable way of contacting the maintainer would be a huge step forward already...
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:11:38Z
it would be a huge step forward, but not sufficient
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Dune
it would be a huge step forward, but not sufficient
heinrich5991 2022-06-28 13:11:56Z
do you want to imply that it shouldn't be done because it's not sufficient?
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:12:09Z
yes
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 13:12:33Z
that strategy sounds stupid
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heinrich5991
that strategy sounds stupid
Zatline 2022-06-28 13:12:57Z
have to agree
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:12:58Z
overcoming one issue with no plans to overcome the others sounds more stupid to me
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:13:37Z
well overcoming one issue could help to overcome the others
13:13
no guarantee, of course :)
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Stiopa
well overcoming one issue could help to overcome the others
Zatline 2022-06-28 13:14:11Z
well that's how you tackle a problem usually u work it out step by step
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:15:31Z
well it depends on the issues
13:15
Dune is right that the other issues are seemingly impossible to tackle
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:15:47Z
I was all for overcoming the maintainer issue back when the rest seemed like it could be overcome, but now I don't feel that way again.
13:17
we could release 0.7.6 with the years of stuff we have. most likely little to no client/server mods will bear with the huge code diff and update
13:17
people using default client or server will enjoy the improvements
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:18:02Z
Let's say we get some really cool features for 0.8 Unless we actually have the mods (or at least ddnet's guarantee for some compatibility?) then the version would die faster than 0.7 (and good luck getting ddnet to support 0.8 with the code diff)
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Stiopa
Let's say we get some really cool features for 0.8 Unless we actually have the mods (or at least ddnet's guarantee for some compatibility?) then the version would die faster than 0.7 (and good luck getting ddnet to support 0.8 with the code diff)
Dune 2022-06-28 13:18:11Z
exactly
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:20:45Z
now I did say good luck. But I do not find it impossible (even now after posting the PR on the ddnet git) (edited)
13:22
stuff can be speculated but speculations are just that - speculations I don't think anybody speculated among us becoming a hit 😆 The issues of a potential 0.8 seem unable to be overcome from current perspective
13:23
but assuming there is more contact between the contributors and the maintainer could revive the hopes not just in the contributors, but also in the eyes of the mod makers
13:24
If mod-makers see that the game is moving forward once again, perhaps they would reconsider once again "chasing the vanilla code-base"
13:25
for 0.6->0.7 it was a silly thing to consider. no gameplay changes, who would want to continue updating if everything was working right?
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:25:53Z
ah, yes, you could suppose if you just make a super shiny great feature-rich 0.8, content creators will flock, create and port content
13:26
I find that overly optimistic, but that's not impossible indeed
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:27:32Z
Personally I do not believe that it would happen, at least not in some grander scheme I kind of believe in the middle, where the game could just move forward without dying
13:28
and I would hope the "moving forward" part could attract people to actually tackle the issues that are currently sitting dormant
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:29:21Z
getting the minimal content out at 0.7 release so people don't just nope out was a crapton of effort I remember
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:30:37Z
sadly I cannot speak on that
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:30:48Z
the first dummydrag races we had on releases with buzzing activity of non-ddneters were a ton of fun though 🙂
13:31
(by non-ddneters I mean, we were all newbies on the first map, it's not a jab or something)
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:32:10Z
when 0.7.1 was released I was in the middle of developing my project for another game so I had no idea of what was happening over here xD
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:32:19Z
Image attachment
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:32:37Z
that being said I'd rather try to get the ball rolling than let the game wither away
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:32:37Z
Image attachment
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Dune
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:33:13Z
the rare chance of Oy being on a server? definitely screenshot worthy!
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Stiopa
when 0.7.1 was released I was in the middle of developing my project for another game so I had no idea of what was happening over here xD
Dune 2022-06-28 13:33:14Z
np man 🙂
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Stiopa
the rare chance of Oy being on a server? definitely screenshot worthy!
Dune 2022-06-28 13:33:28Z
Oy made that map lol
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:34:12Z
ohhh yeah I think I remember that!
13:34
something something xyz, right?
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:34:33Z
yes
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Chairn 2022-06-28 13:34:59Z
xyz_ddrace2
👍 2
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heinrich5991
that strategy sounds stupid
Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:35:38Z
that being said, I can definitely reflect this notion. Not doing anything to fix the current issues just seems like a bad idea
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:35:51Z
yes, not doing anything will not achieve anything
13:36
it's not a winning strategy, it's a low-effort losing strategy
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:39:38Z
not a fan of that :P but can't blame anyone for such strategy with the current activity either.
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Dune 2022-06-28 13:41:10Z
I don't personally foresee a path to a solution. If I would I would be doing it
13:41
others can disagree
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:43:16Z
doesn't hurt to theorize though of course
13:49
and when I started developing my own little water project I was hoping either two things would happen: 1. it would garner some interest, there would be a clear sentiment of "I like this", and with this greenlight and interest somebody more experienced would take over and perhaps redo it much better than I ever could 2. Would be deemed too gamechanging and simply rejected instead it is left in a third option: nobody knows if it could be 1. or it could be 2. perhaps the worst fate of all :) (edited)
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Zatline
why are we not trying to make dev meetings and get new people involved like Stiopa, Assa and Robyt3 as part of the team making decisions working on goals together .. wouldn't that be a start? I would be so motivated to make new maps for 0.8 do graphics and all that but I need assurance that shit is happening else I'm not motivated as I'm feeling I'm wasting my time
Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:54:21Z
and I must agree with this, at least partially like any point of a common forum with a meeting and stuff would be much more preferable to the current status quo
13:55
(I say partially because I am not sure if I want to get involved in anything more than I am in right now 😛 )
13:55
not sure whether Assa and Robyt would want to get more involved 😉
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heinrich5991
I didn't feel we weren't on the same page
Stiopa 2022-06-28 13:58:57Z
and this message gives me a notion that, providing there had been more communication, there was a non-zero chance an agreement could be reached (edited)
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Dune 2022-06-28 14:12:56Z
I don't think Oy trusts heinrich enough for that
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Chairn 2022-06-28 14:20:28Z
does he trust anyone ?
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Dune 2022-06-28 14:22:53Z
various people with various responsibilities
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 14:30:25Z
I'm not interested in maintaining teeworlds currently. can barely keep up with ddnet
14:31
however, I don't understand what kind of trust is missing. people get added to ddnet regularly. if they do something that's bad they're told to stop. why would that not work for teeworlds?
14:31
i.e. basically anyone with some base trust from the community should be good
14:32
let it be Dune (long-term community member) or Robyt3 (recent new developer)
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Dune 2022-06-28 15:01:07Z
if that would happen this would not include a change in politics/design so it would not encompass 1. any design decision PR 2. any technically complex PR as neither of us have enough experience for that so it would only fasten the process with small PRs and bugfixes. I agree it would be an improvement and motivate more devs, but it does not really help with the bulk of large PRs, for which people can already contribute to the accepting process without write access with reviews etc. Very few do. Also, Oy was very responsive after 0.7 release even with small bug reports, so getting Oy motivated to do it himself is also an alternative.
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 15:10:28Z
well even with extra maintainers doing small PRs could maybe free Oy to tackle some of the larger ones
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ReiTW 2022-06-28 16:26:08Z
lets find magnus & ask him to talk to Oy
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Dune 2022-06-28 16:26:58Z
that will achieve nothing, matricks fully respects Oy decisions and will decidedly not interfere with any
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 17:23:54Z
after all Matricks selected Oy (edited)
17:24
but I would definitely want magnus to take a look at Ice and Water PRs. at least for his thoughts on that :)
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Dune 2022-06-28 17:25:28Z
pretty sure he really wants not to be part of the process
17:25
but I also think he would like it ;)
17:25
he loved mmotee
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Stiopa 2022-06-28 17:39:16Z
well. I just want his thoughts, not to make him part of the process
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Deleted User 2022-06-28 21:09:53Z
can someone link the teeworlds repo for me?
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 21:20:05Z
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=teeworlds+repo (edited)
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Deleted User 2022-06-28 21:36:06Z
Thanks
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heinrich5991
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=teeworlds+repo (edited)
Dune 2022-06-28 21:48:42Z
doesn't work for me (fwiw) (edited)
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heinrich5991 2022-06-28 21:50:27Z
fixed
Exported 142 message(s)