Teeworlds - bridge

theres a lot of fng maps actually

09:55

but only one that really gets played

lol tw is not only vanilla ddnet and fng Learath2 ur in a big ddnet bubble

I see a lot of unconverted maps around when joining servers in teeworlds

maybe a hard break is better than tiny incompatibilities, so people have to upgrade maps

that could make the update very unpopular though

12:31

is it worth the feature bonus?

if the server and editor included a converter, it wouldn't be a big deal the most important benefit would be extendability I think however, one could try to improve the current format to be more extendable as well

map compatibility break is best justified by a big selection of new standard maps and new map themes / tilesets

That doesn't break backwards compatibility

13:19

You can add new stuff without breaking old maps

Or have a converter when it does break

ChillerDragon oh I'm sorry I forgot about the 5 obscure mods with 1 map each. I wonder how they will ever use a map convert tool.

oof

It might even break their hands and their 10 players yearly might suffer

salty

@Dune It won't make the update unpopular except for a couple goofs trying to make a statement. If the major mods move along, so will the community. The players don't care what the map format is

that i agree

if we have in mind that whatever we do is fine as long as ddnet can keep up with it we might as well dev directly on the ddnet repo

15:42

even ddrace-like gametypes, or race. there are plenty of maps and some servers that just haven't (properly) converted them

15:43

even 1 year in I see graphical bugs due to the tileset changes

well also 1 year in nobody updated lol

what do you mean?

0.8 will already be network incompatible, so a map format upgrade would really not matter for the players. ddnet can break map compatibility right now if backwards compatibility wasn't a concern

16:51

Besides a converter being bad is not evidence that all converters are bad

16:52

Through proper testing, we could make a conveter that does not suffer from issues of the past

Again, seems reasonable. Maps for the most part are hosters concern. Also having a converter that deal with map version does sounds better than having both servers and clients to deal with versions.

16:53

I +1

@Learath2 you say that, yet tileset compatibility was a huge problem in 0.7, so unless there is a very accessible and visible solution to convert maps there is no reason 0.8 would be any different

Well I don't really know what you changed between 0.6 and 0.7 about the tilesets but the proposed changes to the map format would all be restructuring. As long as the client unpacks the thing correctly I don't see how any issue can occur

17:02

Besides any mistake we make will be quite obvious when ddnet migrates the hundreds of maps we have. We had tileset and quad issues too when making our 0.7 converter and it took like a week to iron out the mistakes. Community size really helps with testing

Isn't having the converter directly in server the point of being accessable? Just have the any version of map loaded and the server does the magic auto magically.

that'd be a solution yeah

@TsFreddie that's what I would propose if people not being able to use or find a converter is a legitimate concern

I'd just like this problem not to be ignored like it was for 0.7

conv always goes in weird ways.

people not being able to use or find a converter is a legitimate concern

17:04

as proven by the amount of chats and support requests I've had with server hosters

So is baking them into the server a solution for the concern or not.

I imagine that'd be a solution yeah

conv's hard man

Anyway, there is no proposal for a new map format yet. Maybe we can have the new layer extensions within the old format

17:06

(Though I think that would create more issues as people can load new maps with old servers)

Ye. If we does do a converter maybe drag 0.5 in as well just for good deed.

Are there 0.5 maps that aren't converted?

if it is not much difficult then why not. I don't know much about 0.5 format. If it is drastically different then probably don't.

No it's exactly the same as 0.6 iirc

Then it would be an extra tileset map data

There might have been minor changes as to where some data goes but that should be it

Well, we'll see.

envelopes support changed maybe?

So it is just me or do our conversation sometimes goes in circles where everyone is having the almost the same idea but still having an argument back and forth.

I don't feel that way

A converter that can load 0.6 maps can also handle 0.5 maps. The tilesets are the major issue. You don't know which one was used.

17:18

We definitely need versioning for external tilesets, then it's kindas easy to update the tile layers

17:18

it's just a index -> new index mapping

Do you mean a 0.6 map using a 0.5 tileset?

a real problem with 0.6 -> 0.7 is that many mods extend the map format in various ways