Teeworlds - general

Teeworlds

discord.gg/teeworlds / general

Teeworlds Discord Server.

Between 2020-08-11 00:00:00Z and 2020-08-12 00:00:00Z

Now yea

well, I could not find your server, was sad, thought the final day had come.

05:04

but at some point it could be found again.

Final day is 16.10.20

Why is there an expiry date to your server?

i think he is tired of dealing with ddos shit

master 1-3 cant be spoofed, as they're also located at ovh as your server

why don't we just use signing with SSL to confirm that messages were originated from the right server? (edited)

14:39

@Mr_Anderson

like the tw servers, the masterservers use a custom udp protocol without any ssl/tls stuff

why don't we incorporate SSL signing into a protocol then? (edited)

the masterserver should just be based on https

it's just a matter of calling OpenSSL function to sign a packet and adding a signature field to a packet

14:44

that could be even better, right (edited)

14:45

but seems that adding a https transport for master server stalled right?

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/1703

HTTPS master · Issue #1703 · teeworlds/teeworlds

@heinrich5991 : HTTPS (definitely with S) for the master server list, preferably with all the server infos already (would also make the refresh faster) #1395

14:45

so far nobody implemented it

14:46

several people started i think, but none finished it

Are master server sources opensourced too?

reimplement in rust or go :0 if it's the master servers

14:46

they are in the tw source

so theoretically I can start my own teeworld network with my own master servers as a playground right?

14:47

with just teeworlds souces

yes, I think persians are doing that?

nice. Why rust and go?

14:48

I though that all sources in tw are plain C++?

easier, I'd bet

14:48

they are.

14:50

well, client would need that as well, so I guess there should be some shared source code in c++ for that anyway :'/

are there any design docs on how master servers work? or everything are just in sources?

14:50

yeah, client could do usual REST API call

14:51

why is master 4 so special? is it located in other datacenter for reliability sake? (edited)

14:52

ah... game servers not hosted where 1-3 are vulnerable to master server spoofing too hm

14:52

nevermind

"design docs" xD

14:54

the source code are the design docs

ah right

14:54

I've just came from another world it seems

from a better world maybe ;D

yeah, where knowledge sharing is one of vital elements of develplent

14:55

and also (some) planning is

preferrable https://msgpack.org/?

14:56

?

dunno, I don't think it matter honestly

14:56

even plain JSON could be ok

14:58

from my perspective game servers <-> master servers interchange are not time sensitive and do not produce a lot of traffic

that's why a lot of stuff should be redone starting with some concept document

14:59

people want the master servers to also hold the server information like current playercount

15:00

so you do not ask the masters for a list of IPs only, but also all that info you'd fetch from the individual servers

what master servers currently do? are they just a directory of game servers which store a basic server info and state like name, game type, current player count, slots, version, restrictions?

that would require a rather high update rate =\

they give you a list of ips

that would require a rather high update rate =\

how high? once a sec? it's not a highload

the servers need to report their current status to the master

and could be done via websocket instead of rest

every 10 secs or so

yeah 10 sec would be max

i think that's the server heartbeat

they could just open websocket connection and leave it opened and use it as a message bus

15:02

bidirectional one

c++ implementation :D

just requires additional libs on server side

that way https://stats.resamvi.io/#/ works

15:02

which is overkill for resavmi though

switch to rust?

15:03

better package management :D

one in 10 sec is doable with REST API though it will have some neglectable overhead

or rather dependency management

we don't need websocket much, it was just an idea (edited)

problem: realtime player count

15:05

instead of periodically exchanging info, the masters would prederrably request that just in time.

is realtime player count already in udp proto? (edited)

yes, you request that from the infividual server yourself, tho

15:05

individual

are you serious?

yes

u mean that a client fetches from master servers a lot of info but not client count?

right now it only fetches the ips

you fetch the IP list from master and ask every server for playercount etc (edited)

oh

everything you see in the severbrowser comes from the servers itself

so master servers don't even search?

no

they just like giving a list of ips?

yes

ok

well, you need to fetch from every master server, as each holds like 75 IPs and all of those IPs are not shared between the masters

oh

kind of balancing

ok

15:08

I thought master servers are for redundancy

15:08

but they're more like sharding

yes

so disrupting any server immediately affects the whole system?

redundancy would be cool if the masters were located all over the globe

15:09

not really

15:10

it just affects the one masterserver if you meant masterserver (edited)

yeah I got that

15:10

so technicaly we don't have any redundancy now?

no

15:11

not that I know of, other might know way more than I do.

who was the latest person trying to implement a secondary protocol?

15:11

and was it in 2018 too?

Inthink there might be some prototypes for different master server approaches

I could implement serverside in ruby in like 3 days.

15:12

but that's ruby, I just know it well

15:12

it's slow compared to go

Oh Yeah! Go is awesome xD

15:13

and fun! (edited)

it is. Just I know ruby much better

for the masterserver people already did prototypes in python, go and probably some other languages =\

@redix don't you remember someone who did it?

ryozuki did a go version, iirc

15:15

heinrich in rust? or am I mistaken?

15:16

I mean go does http out of the box and with some package also https via let's encrypt

the problematic thing isn't the server side, it's the client side

15:17

and the game server side

but i think they all missed dual stack support (glue ipv4 and ipv6 addresses together via a token) and backward compatibility for the old udp stuff

the master server side was like a 100 line python script

15:18

@redix the game servers would probably continuously update their info with the master servers

master can be an ez peaz language, server and client will have to be c++

so that those always have up-to-date info

how often?

via the heartbeat

15:18

15s, or on change, ratelimited to 1s

15:18

is what I thought

yeah that might be okay

interesting questions: how are favorites handled? how are LAN requests handled?

ehm, concept paper?

15:20

for people to add their mustard (hehe)

Ok, I've started to organize info. Behold the first teeworlds docs on master servers https://www.notion.so/influck/teeworlds-master-servers-ffd3a83022e345e6a0eb8303accba440

as long as we dont want another compatibility break the server needs to support the old info requests anyway

1

having multiple masters is a redundancy way (edited)

0.8 be protocol rework

why break compatibility if you don't have to?

^

I feel like 0.7 protocol had quite some issues, that were(?) resolved. like the snap issue with lots of players being online?

15:24

making it look broken from the get go in 0.7

@redix I'd want to have favorites use the https masters, too: they load instantly and don't need to pinged one-by-one

about having the server info on the master... this moves away from the decentralized character of the game. i would be okay with that but would Oy?

it would make the server list load instantly

15:26

it's a bit bad that we still have only one person allowed to accept code

15:26

(btw, sorry, offtopic)

hot to get server info without master

15:26

how

ping each server individually, with the list you got from the masters

why ping

15:27

but it is almost the current state of things isn't it?

how to get info WITHOUT masters xD?

you don't

lan broken

it's the bootstrap problem of peer to peer networks

15:28

all solutions are bandaid

15:28

lan is broadcast

hosting a server depends on having an internet connection and a connection to the masters

15:28

single point of failure

15:28

masters

15:28

down

15:28

all servers down

anyone can still just connect to any IP from a client right?

if all masters are down, then yes

and fav it even if that's a lan IP address

15:29

I mean intranet one

cannot handle favorites

just one note: the 0.7 masterserver protocol uses tokens to prevent spoofing

as they deoend in master servers

15:29

well, the uodates do, my bad

15:30

uodates

15:30

rip

@jxsl13 I'm not sure what you're doing. yes, we need a solution for servers not registered with the masters, that's obvious

15:30

is it just you trying to point that out?

@redix still it's udp

or is it something different?

some hosts like ovh would filter tcp attacks way before it reaches the server @redix

it's that for the most part

quic from google is udp aswell

!!!

we've started this discussion trying to solve spoofing problem right?

did quic make having that whole let's encrypt certification stuff obsolete?

@jxsl13 no

15:32

@Deleted User that's already solved in 0.7

there is no spoofing problem?

15:32

hm k

really?

yes

oh

but a lot of people still use 0.6, which does have that problem

EastByte 2k15 zCatch patch, never forget.

0.6 state

feelspepoman

Image attachment

15:34

omg what is using 200 Mbps of incoming bandwidth?

15:34

teeworlds DoS

you got 500 concurrent players?

vali is back, but no lags

15:35

:v

@Deleted User what is that program?

nload

EastByte was the first one to add the token stuff, never forget! :D

master4 is for 0.6 only?

15:37

@Deleted User status.tw

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/986 @jxsl13 I see 2012

Added tokens to the network and refactored master server code (plea...

Summary Prevents ip spoofing of (hopefully) any kind: master server attack (see mailinglist) server flood attack session hijacking faking server info Protocol change The new network protocol head...

lol wut

15:37

Image attachment

15:37

master4 having issues?

15:38

so... it's not the fokkonaut's server is DoS'ed but master servers

oof, my life is a lie

fokkonaut's server registers on 0.6 masters

15:39

that's where his problems are

man, I remember, weren't 0.6 masters like vulnerable to DoS?

yes, trivially

@fokkonaut is that it?

backwards compatibility ftw :0

I also sure he also have DoS on his server too

15:40

I've wanted to implement some system to mitigate that on serverside today

how would one do that :0?

15:41

mind explaining?

you won't be able to do that much on 0.6 side

the mitigation that is

I was going to make a separate web auth system which pushes authed user ip to a db linux server on which game server is hosted could fetch that ip to temporaly whitelist it repeat the process of fetching ips in cronjob -> iptables -> profit (edited)

that would probably work, but wouldn't really be compatible

15:43

in that system, it's hard to discover your server

oh

15:44

client still needed to fetch a info from the game server right?

15:44

before authenticating

15:44

right

and new clients need to be able to connect

true. or they wouldn't be able to know what they're missing and how to connect

15:44

but that info could be in server description

15:45

but still server should answer to user fetch server request you're right

15:45

thanks a lot, I've missed that

would be interessierng to use the server password instead a web UI for that, but that would be on game server level, not on the linux iptables level. one confirmation per 24h

several hosts also provide firewalls on their network level. if you update these rules depending on the established connections that would be even better. but no new clients then

rei the 200mbits doesnt look like much

15:46

but when u consider that were getting half a million packets every second

well still better than what others receive :v

that kinda puts it into perspective

15:47

the funny part is that it doesnt lag atall xd

receives player traffic only

xD

isnt it spoofed connection/info requests

both

ye

still i'm not sure about inforeq, wouldn't it have outgoing traffic?

15:48

didn't check the in traff

rx: 216.44 Mbit/s 450569 p/s tx: 4.17 Mbit/s 4925 p/s

15:48

yea i guess not info

4.17 is normal

info requests use tokens?

not sure on ddnet side

its a tiny bit higher than normal

15:48

but not much

in 0.7 yes

0.6 ddnet?

bombay is 0.6 server

hm k

we're vanilla based but with ddnet based netcode

i fixed it last night lol

now you are ddnet based?

the netcode is

xD

some part yes xD

15:49

I mean, it's still vanilla source, noby only took some code from ddnet

ye

I mean niby sneakily replacing everything with ddnet code

15:49

niby

feelsamazingman

niby

noby

15:50

onbgy is easier to write

@noby is your server dual protocol like fokkonaut's? (edited)

:p

my server started out as 10.8.6 ddnet (so .6) and i patched in 0.7 support mostly from timakros code on unique race server

or is it 0.6 with some DDNet countermeasures like token?

and fng code ofc

@Deleted User bombay = 0.6 only and supports 256p

no it IS ddnet

15:50

that i turned back into fng (edited)

(splitted into multiple maps)

wat, that many :o

dunno what bombay is

0.7 when?

yep, we have multimap, 64p per map, and 256p max

15:51

@Deleted User the big v3 server on 0.6

bombay is reis server

15:51

ye blmap v3 royal map

is it located in bombay?

yes everyone has 500 ping

no lmao

wasted potential

lol

Mumbai

bombay = ovh strasbourg

1

false advertising

no u

i only know a few tw players from india

look at the avatars

meanwhile theres like a million from germany

wait, there are tw players from india?

not many but ye

huh. interesting

that has a reason

15:53

dating back to like 2009

tw is everywehere

15:53

there were a couple ppl from nigeria playing yday on my server lol

would be great if tw was everywhere with sizeable player amounts

true

I've seen from people nigeria too (edited)

15:55

too bad we will not see ppl from Belarus for some time

rip

is on fire there?

they shutdown the inet

lol

cus corrupt and trying to fuck over the election or something

15:55

i think

they're almost shutted down, there is like civil war

might be exactly that

police and army is there just hitting and shooting innocent civilians on the streets (edited)

15:56

today I think they will shut down internet completely cause civilians are coordinating trough it)

I think nowadays getting cut off from the internet is one of few reason for people to riot.

no, it was the opposite way this time

it will only get worse if they are cut off from the internet

yes, it's scary

15:58

to have a dictator fighting his own ppl with army is one thiung

as more people will fo outside

15:58

go

and no internet to tell anybody about is worse

rip..

worst of all

16:00

no teeworlds for them

they have infection mod on streets though

16:03

or a TDM one... (edited)

where one side has control over the map, shotguns, guns and the other only hammers

has anyone here ever checked the issues with the version server? it does not even send a token back =\

oh... if a master servers don't have info about player count, how status.tw knows it? (edited)

16:22

does it have a separate service to fetch info from servers @jxsl13 ? (edited)

protocol problems, classic.

16:31

status.tw periodically, like every 5 minutes, fetches server data from the whole serverlist (edited)

16:32

if many ppl do that that's bad. (edited)

16:32

getting a ton of traffic

someone probably reported this but half the U.S players can't see U.S servers and can't load the DDnet website

16:37

but I could do both these things when I changed my IP to a german IP

lol, aren't there like US based ddnet servers

mhm but half the players that play on those U.S servers only see the IP and 999 ping

16:39

and can't connect

16:39

when you refresh it stops at 72%

udp problems, classic

16:40

would ask heinrich

ok thx

meaning: ask @heinrich5991 xD, np

Why is there an expiry date to your server?

@Learath2 Noby said it, i'm done with dealing ddos attacks and have not enough motivation/time to host servers

meh, multimap is down, @Trafalgar Law :'c

Nah just the mastersrvs are under ddos @jxsl13

19:31

laws-server.de:8310

0.7 masters?

19:35

did you open your server for 0.6 crap?

19:35

rip

Its 0.6 + 0.7 yea

19:42

Bridge to 0.7

so they have 0.6 vulnerabilities

but does loosing 0.6 master mean loosing 0.7 as well?

19:45

why

19:45

whyyyyyyyy

server being ddosed meh

20:05

whyyyyyyyyyy

playing teeworlds with 20% packet loss is fun, fuck vodafone

tried non-chillerdragon servers?

xd

i measured my package loss with "ping 8.8.8.8 -n 999"

20:29

if I can't reach google, I don't believe it's googles fault (ever)

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