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discord.gg/teeworlds / general
Teeworlds Discord Server.
Between 2020-04-13 00:00:00Z and 2020-04-14 00:00:00Z
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There used to be a wwiii server with vehicles long ago, is it gone now or is there a similar server around?
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there is a battlefield server on 0.6 if thats what u r asking about
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Might be, I'll check tomorrow
04:30
Thank you
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46.39.247.27:8315
04:31
idk who owns it
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private sources
06:21
no owner :D
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hi
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🤔 when do we get anticheat?
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in an open-source game?
15:53
check up nobys server
15:53
and olis
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make it close src in 0.8
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noby's server is closed source
16:05
if it was open source the anti cheat could potentially be breached
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ddnet in 0.6 is also running noby's anti bot without being closed source
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wanna see anticheat like VALORANT
16:05
pc starts already with anticheat software as admin
16:05
lmao
16:06
yeah
16:06
portable
16:06
2d game
16:06
will autolaunch (edited)
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@Learath2 sure? idk when that happened but ok
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for anticheat
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wait gonna look for the reddit thread
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im sure noby's server files are closed source, he may just got access to ddnet servers, but its still closed source
16:07
the word of "trust us" from Riot Games
16:07
can't be trusted at all 😂
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is valorant a game or an anticheat system for several games?
16:07
just game
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@Skayland it happened a month ago with https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/2081
Support for this feature is turned off by default. This feature allows to integrate with noby's anticheat feature.
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game but the anticheat that it uses
16:07
is really persistent
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it's really a breach of privacy, wtf
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vpn defend also opensource
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Riot Games is owned by Tencent
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@Learath2 but then its still closed source and loading it as a module, isnt it?
16:09
like an addon
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but anticheat feature - open
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the ddnet source code is also still open
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Yeah the antibot source itself isn't public but it's an example how a game can be open source but still have an antibot
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sounds good
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skayland: okey, i gonna break it
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i have noby's source
16:10
xd
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i dont need to break anything, and im not doing it
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what you can't have with open source is client side anticheat, whatever you do can be just mimic'd
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my point is: you cant have open source anticheat, or people will find a way around it (edited)
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@Learath2 doubt
16:12
I have an idea on how to implement it in a similar way as the ddnet anticheat
16:12
in a privacy-preserving way
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well we can't even verify that it's running our binary
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of course not
16:12
not directly, at least
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maybe using those flags used to prevent zoom in certain gametypes?
16:13
add them to the closed source module
16:13
a new kind of flag to check if the client has the anticheat or not
16:13
ban him?
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its not good
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why not
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the client can just send any assortment of flags it wants...
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but they dont know which flag is being used to check for anticheat because the flag checking/sending is being handled inside the closed anticheat files
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opensource
16:14
dont forget it
16:14
they will know everything
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you cant have opensource anticheat
16:15
we are talking about a closed source anticheat addon
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no addons on tee xd
16:15
scroll up
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even with a closed source antibot, they just need to check the flags on a server
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and see the github thing
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its just code module
16:16
not an addon
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but its still closed source anticheat
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the code there is just to implement it
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nobys server still private - yes (edited)
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you think noby's anticheat is only 400 lines? lmao
16:17
stop stop
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the open source side is doing calls to a closed source anticheat addon/module
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what do you mean at all
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thats what is happening
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i didnt understand u
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lemme do a draw for you
16:17
opensource side can send whatever it wants (edited)
16:18
or both sides - private
16:18
or no
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flags won't work because at the end of the day, the open source part of the client would be responsible to send the flag
16:19
you can just intercept that and send the same flags
16:19
i will do another drawing
16:20
@gerdoe this is happening
16:20
the anticheat is handled inside a closed environment, and only the falses and positives go out of it
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but if u sending flags to the closed source
16:21
u must or encrypt flags (edited)
16:21
or do another shit (edited)
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obfuscating the client does not work because of mitm attacks so you can have some black-box detection algorithms on the server, but meh
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encrypt*
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well there are ways to avoid mitm
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@Learath2 this is what i mean
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without encryption?
16:23
@Learath2
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client and server both would have a closed side for anticheat, and the flags for anticheat would be inside that closed side only
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how do you want implement closed source to the opensource
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heinrich already did it
16:24
did you see the github thing above? told you to scroll up
16:24
all you gotta do now is encrypt the anticheat flags
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well I don't really like talking about possible anticheat measures publicly
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@Dune do you think what i say is possible?
16:26
client and server both would have a closed side for anticheat, and the flags for anticheat would be inside that closed side only and flags are sent with encryption
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@Skayland how
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what you mean how?
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now antibot thing is opensource
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antibot is not opensource
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part of antibot
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not at all
16:28
its just calls
16:28
those 400 lines are just calls
16:28
you cant do much with just the name of some libs
16:29
you think noby would accept making his antibot open source? xddd
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where the lib? xd
16:33
did you even read the code?
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i read it (edited)
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I'd prefer to have teehistorian and some anti cheat models(ml) that can be passed around, which would not rely on any closed source stuff. It would allow to crowd source bot input data and also allow ML people to work with that data in order to create better detection models. I kind of doubt such models can be easily reverse engineered, as there might simply be too many variables to do so(not a ml person). :( give me the open source variant!
16:50
the trained model files could be "closed source" (edited)
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ugh. why do you even bother with anticheat crap?
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because it's not fun to play with people zooming around using aimbot?
16:54
also it's fun to think about theoretically
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@jxsl13 why do you think ML is well-suited for this anticheat problem domain?
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well, I'm used to check manually against bots. If I see something weird those people simple get a ban. less work than an antibot system.
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it's easy to spot a bad bot, that's not the case with better engineered ones
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they are relative rare in teeworlds. but if you begin with any kind of antibot, you will start a race... (edited)
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yup
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maybe on 0.7 it's rare
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yup @ starting a race
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we should ask noby how many bots he finds in a day on his fng server
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noby calls everything a bot
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in his fng server you can find a feed of the kicks
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Trafalgar Law 2020-04-13 16:59:05Z
@noby nobytroll
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even dyncam players
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or if we ever get to analyze the terabyte of teehistorian data i'd love to see how many people replaybot on ddnet
17:00
@heinrich5991 ML might be useful in analyzing the actual input data, a model might be able to spot the bottiness of the movement
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ML is good at spotting known categories
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(or how human an input is)
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so you might train it on an actual bot, I guess
17:01
and ML is also a lot about what false positive rate is acceptable
17:01
and for antibots this is very close to 0
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we could train it on actual human data instead
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it's possible to use both, human input and bit input.
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When one mentions ML I always see bright stars in people's eyes about what it might do, and it tends ends up doing a very limited subset of that
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Usually cheat creators operate as individuals, currently noby also operates as an individual. if we have another 0.6 bot endgame, i'd guess it's too much work for one individual to "fight" against multiple small teams or individuals, thus the crowdsourcing idea. whole community providing data (should be confirmed by people in any case) in a fight against individuals creating cheats. if there would be an interchangable default way for such data to be exchanged, this would imo help.
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@heinrich5991 the false positive rate is only close to 0 if you'll actually take action with the antibot, you could just use it as an aid
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current workflow is, I'd guess noby looking manually through data, tweaking parameters himself, for every bot that has been found.
17:09
calculating some thresholds (edited)
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tbh, noby could release his source and no bot maker would be dedicated enough to read it, let alone work around it
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there are always individuals.
17:10
depends on whether those individuals actually share their cheats.
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siO would probably be dedicated enough to workaround it if noby pissed him off enough (edited)
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if you wanna know how many bots noby finds daily just join the discord and check the #bots channel
17:16
i think there is also a list somewhere with "known bots" and other stats
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There is a bunch of 0.6 bots openly available, that people use. it's not like everyone still playing on 0.6 creates their own bot to bypass that detection. (edited)
17:17
some people might be not that bright to attempt to use the same bot again, even tho they were banned previously.
17:19
laying out the groundwork to prevent a 0.6 endgame, might help on the long run with 0.7 (edited)
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[11:59 AM] Kaisi: even dyncam players wtf i play with dyncam what
20:24
and yes there is no such thing as a perfect antibot
20:25
everything can be bypassed in theory
20:25
its just a fun project and at the very least reduces how powerful the bots can be
20:26
and the arms race is always gonna be a thing even if there is no automated system
20:26
replace "server side antibot" with "admin watching the server" and the same idea could apply where people try to make better bots that the admin wont see
20:27
no perfect antibot in theory
20:27
but perfect bots are
20:27
xd
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no i think
20:28
a "perfect" bot isnt the problem here
20:28
more like a bot thats just as good as the best human player
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noby = bot
20:29
ok
20:29
hm
20:30
inputs can be "like bot input"
20:30
and no
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i dont think theres any one input alone that could be called botlike
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u have to look at sequences of their inputs or shots or whatever else and look for patterns
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heyho jxsl13 (edited)
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I am a living false positive.
20:32
yes
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cus the way u play
20:32
it doesnt like it
20:33
if i were to rewrite the whole system today id probably pick a smarter approach
20:33
where the detects have to go thru a human
20:33
to evaluate if its false or not
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what do you think about crowd sourcing data?
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in wat way
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teehistorian (edited)
20:34
user inputs.
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could be useful yea
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client input logs? (edited)
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preferrably with meta data indicating whether someone was detected as a bit by an admin.
20:35
yes, client input log format of heinrich
20:35
super compressible, super light weight (edited)
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im sure there are better ways to make antibot than what i have on my servers
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something using all the teehist data is probably one of them
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Hooe there will be teehistorian in vanilla one day :'(
20:36
hope
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lmfao (edited)
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that would be cool
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are there ways to open fucking teesouces folder in vs2015
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psshhh, ping heinrich an annoy him to make this a reality.
20:39
psshh end
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there is
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"install vs2019"
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you use cmake to generate a crap ass visual studio project from the source code
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holy shit
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and ooen the project
20:40
open
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that way only?
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I guess, that's the best way
20:41
okey (edited)
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I am working on an open source C++ project, for code that compiles on Linux and Windows. I use CMake to build the code on Linux. For ease of development setup and political reasons, I must stick to
20:42
@gerdoe (aka Satan Mama Cat)
20:42
thanks
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@gerdoe what alternative did you have in mind?
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for what?
20:44
are there ways to open teesouces folder in vs2015
20:44
here?
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cmake is perfectly capable of creating vs projects, what else do you want? (edited)
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use neovim with coc.nvim and coc-clangd
🐛 2
21:18
and vim-cmake
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use a gun.
21:19
beutiful
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r.i.p. :D
Exported 262 message(s)