DDraceNetwork - mapping

got a question about Time CPs. if I put them into my map do I need to add all 1-25 in one map and second what if you got a skip in your map that would skip a CP. would that be a problem if a tee goes through CP 3 then 6 because of skipping 4 and 5. would it still work or do I need to insert 4 and 5 on the skip also. hope someone can help me

All tees has to pass/touch TimeCPs so you need to place them in correct spots, if there is a cheat then either place it after the cheat or before (depending how you distribute your TimeCP). You don't need all 25. Just spread them throughout the whole map evenly until you reach finish.

1

if someone skips a time cp they just dont have a time cp for those parts

03:25

you can see an example of this on polarity using ddstats

03:25

so that means ok first I can do it with less CP got that. and second yes you can skip cps and it would not "crash" the system. if polarity is still working. so you could add cps 1-3 before the skip then on the normal way cp4 and after the skip cp5. and one tee who goes through the shortcut would just get no time for cp4 but it still works after that.

yes

thank you both

1

playing around with gradients

07:59

some really interesting stuff comes out

heres some other examples (edited)

4

meloƞ

the day ddnet-rs's editor works as planned i'll explicitly use it's editor - i'm hyped about co-op mapping the most

The easiest is if someone tests it out and gives feedback. The network feature is already in ^^

Jupstar ✪

The easiest is if someone tests it out and gives feedback. The network feature is already in ^^

:o Excessive use incoming! Who is working on it? (Where do I provide feedback)

catseyenebulous

:o Excessive use incoming! Who is working on it? (Where do I provide feedback)

Currently only I am working on it. But if someone is using it I might be more motivated to take it more seriously

Feedback can be provided to me directly or create an issue on https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-rs

Jupstar ✪

Currently only I am working on it. But if someone is using it I might be more motivated to take it more seriously

Feedback can be provided to me directly or create an issue on https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-rs

Great, I’ll try it out when I’m home!

catseyenebulous

Great, I’ll try it out when I’m home!

I'm home in like 5 hours, hit me up we can test the dual mapping together owo

We can't create threads in this channel, can we?

2

10:24

^ Gives a very quick tut how to host & join.

10:25

There are lot of small nits you'll find, just saving a map twice I already noticed the file explorer always resets which is a bit annoying. But you can give me all kinds of feedback, even such small things, then we can collect them and fix it.

meloƞ

I'm home in like 5 hours, hit me up we can test the dual mapping together owo

Roger that. owo

Wait an ingame dual mapping tool? poggers2

Sadly no, the ddnet physics are not finished, so I didn't invest time connecting the editor ingame yet. The editor simply fixes smth no other editor fixes: You can zoom out far and modify huge chunks of the map at once

Ah okay. But nontheless i would root for a dual/teammapping ingame. Hanging out together, exchanging ideas. Huge motivation boost (edited)

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/7666 is the first step in smth like that

Add netmessage to update tiles in the map · Issue #7666 · ddnet/ddn...

Not sure how exactly it should look like. I quickly came up with a poc that looks like this NetMessageEx("Sv_ModifyTile", "modify-tile@netmsg.ddnet.org", [ NetIntAny("m_X&q...

Souly

heres some other examples (edited)

these are awesome

1

louis

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/7666 is the first step in smth like that

ddnet is slowly transforming into minecraft

As cool as it sounds, a robust multi user editor is really really not as trivial as it might sound. If one user modifies a layer while a second changes it size you have to cleanly check if all the actions are still valid and do not create out of bounds actions. E.g. I tried to never use any function that can panic in rust, and handle all cases but even now I could not 100% guarantee it's perfect ^^

louis

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/7666 is the first step in smth like that

I guess if you'd split the map into chunks you could update loaded chunks with reliable in-order packets. and if a new chunk is loaded the server must check if e.g. the chunk hash matches. However neither ddnet rendering nor the network is build for this at all

Jupstar ✪

As cool as it sounds, a robust multi user editor is really really not as trivial as it might sound. If one user modifies a layer while a second changes it size you have to cleanly check if all the actions are still valid and do not create out of bounds actions. E.g. I tried to never use any function that can panic in rust, and handle all cases but even now I could not 100% guarantee it's perfect ^^

ye i can imagine xd

i would just lock the entire layer while properties tab is opened by someone

louis

i would just lock the entire layer while properties tab is opened by someone

Sure, but what if i delete a layer? what if i have a ping of 300 and don't know yet that the layer is locked and my client still sends a modify action. What you suggest is defs nice to give the mappers visually a feedback that the action is not good at that moment, but in code u still have to make sure all actions are properly handled

13:40

I am also interested in the performance on weaker computers. E.g. here i use a tile brush on the game layer with size 4000x1000. And as can be seen I get to the limitations of what is possible with that. Copying and updating the VRAM with so huge buffers is simply not much faster. Even if I could still improve it a bit probably. E.g. i compared it to krita & gimp and they also don't perform much better with huge pixel count. Tho i doubt u ever modify so many tiles at once realistically. But yeah

Jupstar ✪

Sure, but what if i delete a layer? what if i have a ping of 300 and don't know yet that the layer is locked and my client still sends a modify action. What you suggest is defs nice to give the mappers visually a feedback that the action is not good at that moment, but in code u still have to make sure all actions are properly handled

What if a layer is locked for others as long as someone is working on it / has it selected?

15:21

@meloƞ Let me know when you are here!

catseyenebulous

What if a layer is locked for others as long as someone is working on it / has it selected?

Let's do some worst case: You have a massive lag and have no internet for 20 seconds. The other player resized the layer to 1x1 and then closed the window again. Your client doesn't know about it Your lag makes your client think you still have a 4000x4000 layer and you would modify out of bounds because your client simply sends your action after the lag (edited)

1

15:24

I mean modifying a map is always racy. if two ppl modify the same layer they might overwrite the other's person change

15:25

So a robust implementation is a good start and other features, like locking, can build on top of it

catseyenebulous

@meloƞ Let me know when you are here!

soon! just need to inhale that godsent of a dürüm

1

ok i should be ready in like 10-15 minutes @catseyenebulous

1

15:40

ah shoot i need to set a free port (edited)

Jupstar ✪

Let's do some worst case: You have a massive lag and have no internet for 20 seconds. The other player resized the layer to 1x1 and then closed the window again. Your client doesn't know about it Your lag makes your client think you still have a 4000x4000 layer and you would modify out of bounds because your client simply sends your action after the lag (edited)

what about asking/recieving data that shows when was the last ping, if it was a long time ago it wont let you do x

Cammodude

what about asking/recieving data that shows when was the last ping, if it was a long time ago it wont let you do x

You can also break down this worst case to only 1 second if someone has fast fingers

well its adjustable

15:47

send many pings, or send only a few

15:47

i dont know enough networking to guess how it should be done

In any way, my point is simply that it's super hard to rely on concepts like locking

or both clients can have a local copy, if someone regains connection the copies are compared and depending on the changes they go trough or are stopped

Realistically you have to deal with actions that are not valid

Cammodude

or both clients can have a local copy, if someone regains connection the copies are compared and depending on the changes they go trough or are stopped

That is not trivially either, esp. with bigger maps

not individual tiles

15:49

but for big actions like resizing a layer

15:50

obviously the best solution would probably be a combination of all of this

does it not have a single ground truth server/map hoster?

yes, but if the client says: modify the tiles with offset (x,y) - (w,h) what should that server do?

15:59

just apply the action ?

15:59

Without networking I'd say yes.. bcs the action is not invalid