DDraceNetwork - developer

It must get tiring to ferociously defend the codebase for so long, I don't think I could do it

00:14

I agree with his side, the other guy should do more testing

the last night thing is crazy

ChillerDragon

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #9021 Fix hot_reload losing spectator state

Ewan

the last night thing is crazy

I think the actual patches are 2 weeks old but the commits were reformatted the night before. but still I would think for the kernel you'd want to have them in their final format for a while before shipping them

yeah

ChillerDragon

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #9130 Use .data() in mysql code for better readability

Fixes https://clang.llvm.org/extra/clang-tidy/checks/readability/container-data-pointer.html

ChillerDragon

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #9131 Fix empty vector element access in mysql prepare

If the sql statement does not contain placeholders NumParameters can be empty. In that case accessing the first element will cause an asan error: runtime error: reference binding to null pointer of type 'st_mysql_bind'

ddnet-maps

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

4018025 M Cryptic - ddnet-maps

good morning vietnam

3

Yo, I'm writing a "type checker" for my language and I wanted to ask if you know how to make the code better because what I made is... not the best code

pub fn check_sub(lhs: &Expr, rhs: &Expr, scope: &Scope) -> Result<()> {
    // This function has to check if subtract expression has valid operands
    // Rules:
    // `foo - 69` check if type of 69 is not bigger than type of foo
    // `69 - foo` check if type of 69 is not bigger than type of foo
    // `foo - bar` check if foo and bar of the same type
    // `ptr - offset` variable offset has to be either variable of type usize or immediate

    let left_type = lhs.type_(scope)?;
    let right_type = rhs.type_(scope)?;

    if left_type.ptr() {
        if !Expr::int_lit_only(rhs) {
            assert_eq!(right_type, Type::UInt(UintType::Usize));
        }
    }

    if left_type.int() && right_type.int() {
        match (Expr::int_lit_only(lhs), Expr::int_lit_only(rhs)) {
            (true, false) => {
                assert!(Type::common_type(left_type, right_type.clone()) < right_type);
            }
            (false, true) => {
                assert!(Type::common_type(left_type.clone(), right_type) < left_type);
            }
            (false, false) => assert_eq!(left_type, right_type),
            (true, true) => (),
        };
    }

    panic!("Invalid operands");
}

mornin

hi developa

4

hi

Hi

github-merge-queue[bot]

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

f7955a5 Fix empty vector element access in mysql prepare - ChillerDragon a9e52d2 Merge pull request #9131 from ChillerDragon/pr_fix_mysql_null_bind - def-

07:54

def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #9131 Fix empty vector element access in mysql prepare

why does rust implement std::ops::Shl/std::ops::Shr for all possible integer type combinations but not for addition / subtraction etc.? (edited)

maybe because the inputs to << and >> are treated differently

Teero

An atom is also just a model we use to describe nature. We have no idea if we are correct. It is just that it fits with everything we have seen so far

how would you even define "correct"?

heinrich5991

how would you even define "correct"?

"correct" would be a model that if simulated results in the exact same behaviour as real life in every case. But there is no way to know if smth is "correct" except observing things. I'm just ranting that people just accept the current models as correct.

in practice, all of the models I use are incorrect then, I think

1

08:54

but I find them much more useful than their more correct counterparts, because I can actually compute stuff with them and make useful predictions

ddnet physics are better than RL physics

08:57

no falldmg is just a selling argument

Pioooooo

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #9132 Hammer sounds disappear randomly

Mostly happens when I get a poor internet connection with the server, but this time I still have the hook sound. I can't remember if I had hook sounds before, but I will pay attention to it in the future. This video is too big. Try again with a file size less than 10MB.

Tater

I agree with his side, the other guy should do more testing

The other guy has to play by the release cycle rules. You don't blindside the maintainer with critical patches in rc...

Learath2

The other guy has to play by the release cycle rules. You don't blindside the maintainer with critical patches in rc...

What is the sense of rc then?

Rcs are release candidates, they are for minor touchups if needed, not critical patches that have been held for 2 weeks because mr man didn't feel like putting it up before the rc

Learath2

Rcs are release candidates, they are for minor touchups if needed, not critical patches that have been held for 2 weeks because mr man didn't feel like putting it up before the rc

And now? How can you tell the patches were ready 2 weeks ago?

He said they were ready 2 weeks ago

And how did Linus not notice it when he prepared the rc?

Jupstar ✪

And how did Linus not notice it when he prepared the rc?

Because he didn't say it 2 weeks ago. He said in that mail chain when submitting the patches

11:07

When accused of pushing untested commits into an rc the night before it's release, he said he had been testing the changes in his tree for 2 weeks now

11:07

The kernel has a way of doing release cycles, you just have to play by the rules. It's non-negotiable, everyone else has no issue pushing their changes in time

I dunno I read the dialog a bit and to me it sounds like both sides are at fault. But I am not so much in the material

If you don't want to play by the rules, you can ship your thing as a kernel module

Jupstar ✪

I dunno I read the dialog a bit and to me it sounds like both sides are at fault. But I am not so much in the material

The only context you need to know is that idk any other mainline project that is having this issue of not putting up their patches in time

11:10

Mr Kent thinks his project needs special treatment

Learath2

The only context you need to know is that idk any other mainline project that is having this issue of not putting up their patches in time

Ok sure. But the question I have is, why did Linus then pull his tree at all. Did the other maintainer say he wants "this" for the RC? Like is there no communication or smth

11:12

Sounds all so random lmao

11:13

They should just switch to a proper git and do pull requests properly lmao

Jupstar ✪

Ok sure. But the question I have is, why did Linus then pull his tree at all. Did the other maintainer say he wants "this" for the RC? Like is there no communication or smth

Idk why Linus still let these patches in because last rc when Kent tried to pull the same shit he didn't let them in. My guess would be that these ones are actually critical unlike the last ones

11:16

Also his jabs towards btrfs throughout his mails were a little disgusting ngl. I wouldn't tolerate that attitude

tja, 2 egos hit each others xd

@Learath2 do u know where to find gcc docs on weakref attribute?

11:18

extern uint64_t* X;

int main()
{
    X = ...;
    return 0;
}

if i have a static lib .a that defines a global like this, and define in a C file this global with extern, it will modify it right?

Ryozuki

@Learath2 do u know where to find gcc docs on weakref attribute?

I only know this https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.2.4/gcc/Function-Attributes.html

Function Attributes - Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC)

Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC)

xd

Idk if there is anything more detailed about weakref specifically

@Learath2 have you ever contributed to a project that uses mailing lists btw?

Jupstar ✪

@Learath2 have you ever contributed to a project that uses mailing lists btw?

Not yet, I always wanted to get something into the kernel but never found what to do

Ryozuki

extern uint64_t* X;

int main()
{
    X = ...;
    return 0;
}

if i have a static lib .a that defines a global like this, and define in a C file this global with extern, it will modify it right?

Yes, if I understood you correctly

Learath2

Not yet, I always wanted to get something into the kernel but never found what to do

I see. I always wonder if these older than oldschool projects are unattractive for young ppl

Learath2

Yes, if I understood you correctly

if the global is a pointer the extern should be a double ptr?

11:21

xd

I once contributed to an SVN project, and it was really annoying how they did things xD

Jupstar ✪

I see. I always wonder if these older than oldschool projects are unattractive for young ppl

The barrier to entry is just too high I guess. When contributing something to a git project on github it's a breeze

Ryozuki

if the global is a pointer the extern should be a double ptr?

No not like that

ok

Learath2

The barrier to entry is just too high I guess. When contributing something to a git project on github it's a breeze

Yeah but also depends on the project. I doubt I want to pr smth to rust upstream again. Overloaded maintainers with no idea what they want

@gdin hi

I guess maintaining is always a annoying job xD You have to deal with so many different ppl of different skill sets & language

zhn

@gdin hi

You alive bro

Ryozuki

ok

Sorry had to step away for a second. Think of it like the names directly aliasing eachother

ye it worked

Jupstar ✪

Yeah but also depends on the project. I doubt I want to pr smth to rust upstream again. Overloaded maintainers with no idea what they want

Rust imo also has a governance issue.

11:37

There are features and proposals that have been just waiting around for yeaaaars now

Learath2

There are features and proposals that have been just waiting around for yeaaaars now

Yep true. It's also a very divisive topic ig. Some ppl work a lot with rust, so any cool feature makes the life easier. And then there are ppl that want the language to stay clean and not too overpowered. Yeah dunno, where are my AI friends hhehehe

It seems after a language gets to a certain level of adoption, things just grind to a halt because of all the politics and expectations involved

11:40

Atleast rust has the mechanism of editions to let them break stuff

Learath2

Atleast rust has the mechanism of editions to let them break stuff

But I feel likey they don't do that

11:40

Like really breaking stuff

11:40

Just like cpp would never do

Yeah, it feels underused. Is a 6 year discussion worth not breaking stuff when we have a mechanism that explicitly allows us to get out of this stalemate?

Learath2

It seems after a language gets to a certain level of adoption, things just grind to a halt because of all the politics and expectations involved

But I still find that interesting. It seems like almost all projects suffer from that, and in the end there is smth new that simply replaces it until it suffers the same fate

I wonder if a scheduled edition break every 2 years would help with these projects. If breakage is inevitable maybe the maintainers would become less conservative

Maybe the problem is also simply that maintainers are not replaced. To not sound unfair. ofc the old maintainers have much more experience and probably carry that a project stays stable. But I guess humans are simply not motivated over years to come

Jupstar ✪

Maybe the problem is also simply that maintainers are not replaced. To not sound unfair. ofc the old maintainers have much more experience and probably carry that a project stays stable. But I guess humans are simply not motivated over years to come

This is also an issue yeah. Term limits for maintainers when?

I guess the issue is the caliber of individual required to be a maintainer of something like rust. You can't just pick any random programmer for the job. So maybe it's not even easy to replace them even if you wanted

Yeah true

I think Rust suffers from being designed by committee, similar to C++. Languages like that end up adding a lot of features, which makes it extremely hard to become proficient in the language

deen

I think Rust suffers from being designed by committee, similar to C++. Languages like that end up adding a lot of features, which makes it extremely hard to become proficient in the language

Hm, perhaps you do have a point. The standard libraries of both are huuuge and they have many tools available for the same job. What do you think is a viable alternative? A language designed by a BDFL?

11:52

Useless English word of the day: loquacious, means talkative

And what does talkative mean

11:53

Well I translated it now, so you don't need to answer anymore xd

Learath2

Hm, perhaps you do have a point. The standard libraries of both are huuuge and they have many tools available for the same job. What do you think is a viable alternative? A language designed by a BDFL?

Strongly opinionated BDFL who doesn't approve most ideas (Python), or just a small team that develops the product without accepting any outside contributions (SQLite)

11:55

but there has to be a vision, and it's usually easier for a person to have that vision compared to an organization/committee

11:56

(DDNet also suffers from this, we just merge a lot of stuff)

I have a vision about ddnet too

deen

Strongly opinionated BDFL who doesn't approve most ideas (Python), or just a small team that develops the product without accepting any outside contributions (SQLite)

Given I'm not a huge fan of either, I'm unsure whether I agree that's a good way to run a project. But given their success in the market it's hard to deny that their approach delivers a decent product

I wanted to fix something in SQLite and that's when I found out you can't contribute at all

deen

(DDNet also suffers from this, we just merge a lot of stuff)

We are faar too soft indeed, we should really stop accepting anything that hasn't gone through a discussion and pre-approved

11:59

We just end up merging because someone put in the time to develop something, but that's not a great reason

I think our problem is somewhere else. We want to be mod friendly and have backward compatiblity and compatible to all versions of teeworlds and motivate people to contribute their ideas to ddnet and want to be stable xD (edited)

Jupstar ✪

I think our problem is somewhere else. We want to be mod friendly and have backward compatiblity and compatible to all versions of teeworlds and motivate people to contribute their ideas to ddnet and want to be stable xD (edited)

Yeah and the solution is so obvious actually

12:02

All this crud has to be chopped off. Plugin support, downloadable gamecore, separate backwards compatibility layer

Well I defs have ideas to solve some of our problems, but defs not all xD

Learath2

All this crud has to be chopped off. Plugin support, downloadable gamecore, separate backwards compatibility layer

E.g. I'd NEVER accept plugin support for ddnet

12:02

Just as modloaders for minecraft don't upstream their stuff

Russia and Turkey banned discord

What I'd accept is to replace components in total (at once) where the interface is clear

12:03

That is also what the idea of dd-pg is. You can replace ingame rendering and physics

12:03

But you cannot load a plugin that only changes 1 line of code

deen

I wanted to fix something in SQLite and that's when I found out you can't contribute at all

That is a thing I'm not a huge fan of. But I do understand why they do it. It's really hard to ensure outside contributions quality. People hate their code getting reviewed and get argumentative

fokkonaut

Russia and Turkey banned discord

:c

Jupstar ✪

Yeah but also depends on the project. I doubt I want to pr smth to rust upstream again. Overloaded maintainers with no idea what they want

rust is relatively easy to contribute to IME

Learath2, how are you here? VPN? xd

Learath2

There are features and proposals that have been just waiting around for yeaaaars now

well, it's good that not everything is accepted. I guess it needs more explicit rejections though

heinrich5991

rust is relatively easy to contribute to IME

Mh maybe u got a better experience then xD. I literally felt the burn out of rust maintainers

Jupstar ✪

E.g. I'd NEVER accept plugin support for ddnet

You just don't want to make any API promises? Idk I think if we had an easy way for people to modify their clients and servers we wouldn't get so many complaints

Learath2

You just don't want to make any API promises? Idk I think if we had an easy way for people to modify their clients and servers we wouldn't get so many complaints

Yes, that is allowed, but not as plugin system. Well depends on the definition of plugin maybe

Learath2

Hm, perhaps you do have a point. The standard libraries of both are huuuge and they have many tools available for the same job. What do you think is a viable alternative? A language designed by a BDFL?

yesterday I read something on reddit, people complaining about the rust stdlib being way too small

heinrich5991

yesterday I read something on reddit, people complaining about the rust stdlib being way too small

Huh, what are they missing even lol

I wouldn't want to allow "small" lua scripts for example. I prefer it to see it like mc, there can be a mod loader that replaces the whole physics system and add their lua support

12:06

That is the reason I chose WASM

Jupstar ✪

I wouldn't want to allow "small" lua scripts for example. I prefer it to see it like mc, there can be a mod loader that replaces the whole physics system and add their lua support

So less granular hooks

Learath2

So less granular hooks

Yeah exactly

But the less granular your hooks the harder it is to make a mod/plugin

I feel like upstream code with call_lua_this call_lua_that will just be a pain But that's my opinion

Learath2

But the less granular your hooks the harder it is to make a mod/plugin

Well the mod loader has to deal with it

I think @GutZuFusss made a nice lua client that shows how it could work

Yes, but not upstream

Jupstar ✪

Well the mod loader has to deal with it

With C++ it's much harder, you can't really replace entire classes on the go like with Java

btw, I actually didn't think that rust's stdlib is too large. what makes you feel that way? @Learath2

Learath2

With C++ it's much harder, you can't really replace entire classes on the go like with Java

Yeah, so if you want it like java, compile your java runtime to wasm xDDD

heinrich5991

btw, I actually didn't think that rust's stdlib is too large. what makes you feel that way? @Learath2

I feel every type has so many methods available. E.g. just check the doc page for Vec

I feel like that isn't a problem

12:12

at least that in particular: vec having many methods

heinrich5991

I feel like that isn't a problem

It isn't a problem per se, but it makes it harder to be proficient

I have a v8 client aswell

GutZuFusss

I have a v8 client aswell

So javascript

that could be merged with upstream

Jupstar ✪

So javascript

and WASM so virtually any programming language

Yeah but not wasm only

E.g. in Python, List has like 6-7 methods. It's usually obvious how to use a List properly

I assume this: https://github.com/AllTheHaxx/CDXX

GitHub - AllTheHaxx/CDXX: Teeworlds 0.7 with V8 scripting engine. D...

Teeworlds 0.7 with V8 scripting engine. Developement will be slow, but steady™. - AllTheHaxx/CDXX

yes

12:15

it just has console.print bound iirc

How do you share memory with your v8 engine? Is it uploaded on fly for single functions? E.g. let's say you have a OnClientJoin, how would that look like?

Jupstar ✪

I feel like upstream code with call_lua_this call_lua_that will just be a pain But that's my opinion

Once upon a time, I imagined a future where this worked in a layered way. Only level of abstraction "upstream" would be aware of would be a CPluginManager which would load a .so file and just call hooks in it, nothing more. Then one could implement a python or lua or whatever loader plugin

Jupstar ✪

How do you share memory with your v8 engine? Is it uploaded on fly for single functions? E.g. let's say you have a OnClientJoin, how would that look like?

you can just bind variables and callbacks as you said

GutZuFusss

you can just bind variables and callbacks as you said

So the c++ object gets transformed into what?

I did not spend a lot of thought on how to approach that

Oh ok

Jupstar ✪

So the c++ object gets transformed into what?

javascript objects

GutZuFusss

javascript objects

Is there any limitations? U have no raw pointers at least ig :d

Learath2

It isn't a problem per se, but it makes it harder to be proficient

extract_if, pop_if, into_flattened are the methods that I didn't know from just their names. after looking at the methods, I feel like this is okay

Jupstar ✪

You alive bro

not really

1

12:18

discord refuses to work at times

Learath2

E.g. in Python, List has like 6-7 methods. It's usually obvious how to use a List properly

I think it makes sense that rust has a lot more functions on a vector since it wants to have performant ways to manipulate it

Jupstar ✪

Is there any limitations? U have no raw pointers at least ig :d

Additionally how is the performance if an object needs to be translated to js object every frame

@Jupstar ✪ do you share your host memory directly with wasm?

@heinrich5991 I'd really like to see how you want to integrate lua in a sane matter and also deliver a good amount of customization. I mean it's not like I never thought about not doing the approach I do rn. But just bcs factario uses LUA, I don't think that this is generally a good approach. It depends on what your goal is ig^^ So I am seriously interested, also about how much complexity is added with such an approach

12:22

I literally stopped it when I noticed that switching to a wasm runtime all the time is annoying and also not that fast

Learath2

@Jupstar ✪ do you share your host memory directly with wasm?

Ofc not, that's not even possible

12:22

I serialize and deserailize it

12:22

That is also costly btw, but apparently not my bottleneck

12:23

Since it happens on low rates currently

Jupstar ✪

Ofc not, that's not even possible

It would be cool if you could expose parts of host memory directly

wdym, directly?

12:23

share a byte array with the VM, that the VM has bounds-checked access to?

12:23

sounds doable

heinrich5991

share a byte array with the VM, that the VM has bounds-checked access to?

Yes

I want to support complex types tho

Jupstar ✪

@heinrich5991 I'd really like to see how you want to integrate lua in a sane matter and also deliver a good amount of customization. I mean it's not like I never thought about not doing the approach I do rn. But just bcs factario uses LUA, I don't think that this is generally a good approach. It depends on what your goal is ig^^ So I am seriously interested, also about how much complexity is added with such an approach

factorio for example implements much of the game logic in lua, in a sense, the actual game is just a mod as well

But complex types are only a composition of primitive types. As long as you can ensure the layout is the same, you could share data that way. Pointers are probably the biggest issue in there. Idk how one would keep that safe

I'd probably go with a similar approach for ddnet

heinrich5991

factorio for example implements much of the game logic in lua, in a sense, the actual game is just a mod as well

Ah yeah, that is what I do with wasm too then, and can still support lua I just don't get why lua instead of wasm

wasm is good if you want to have first-class support for C/C++/Rust

Jupstar ✪

Ah yeah, that is what I do with wasm too then, and can still support lua I just don't get why lua instead of wasm

3 letter word is quicker to type than 4 letter word, it's obvious

lua is good if you want first-class support for lua

heinrich5991

wasm is good if you want to have first-class support for C/C++/Rust

And the lua interpreter compiles to wasm, since it's in c

12:27

and thus u have lua support

12:27

without upstreaming it

I would guess, but would be happy to be convinced otherwise, that the lua support is not going to be first class

12:27

i.e. that you need a lot of tinkering to make it work — but I'd like for anyone with a text editor to be able to make a mod, that'd be amazing

Actually I wonder if anyone wrote a lua to wasm compiler

heinrich5991

I would guess, but would be happy to be convinced otherwise, that the lua support is not going to be first class

But why.. If you add lua support in your rust library or if you add lua support to your rust library that compiles to wasm

12:28

where is the difference xD

heinrich5991

i.e. that you need a lot of tinkering to make it work — but I'd like for anyone with a text editor to be able to make a mod, that'd be amazing

Yes but that is required anyway

12:28

WASM is just an additional layer

it's not a given that a lot of tinkering is required

I could also say it differently. You don't even notice dd-pg has WASM

12:29

Since the code is the same rust code

while trying to cross-compile client on windows to .exe file, it just won't open for some reason... any ideas?

heinrich5991

i.e. that you need a lot of tinkering to make it work — but I'd like for anyone with a text editor to be able to make a mod, that'd be amazing

This is probably the most important thing. The ability to mod with just a text editor is great for so many games

Learath2

This is probably the most important thing. The ability to mod with just a text editor is great for so many games

But I don't see how wasm isntead of lua stops that. Your lua stuff can be hot reloaded too in a wasm module

12:30

it's literally like you code native minus some stuff like threading

Jupstar ✪

But I don't see how wasm isntead of lua stops that. Your lua stuff can be hot reloaded too in a wasm module

You are saying someone develops and maintains a wasm-lua-loader layer that handles this?

Learath2

You are saying someone develops and maintains a wasm-lua-loader layer that handles this?

Apparently there is an interest for that

12:30

I mean someone has to maintain the lua part

12:30

and that's what he ends up doing

StormA

while trying to cross-compile client on windows to .exe file, it just won't open for some reason... any ideas?

i've used a ddnet documentation for cross compile from -> https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet

StormA

while trying to cross-compile client on windows to .exe file, it just won't open for some reason... any ideas?

my russian isn't good enough, could you help me?

he doesn't care about WASM

12:31

he doesn't need to care about WASM

heinrich5991

my russian isn't good enough, could you help me?

impossible to launch this application on this pc (edited)

do you know which CPU architecture the binary is for and which CPU architecture your computer has? there's probably some way to find out what the actual error in launching was, too…

Jupstar ✪

I mean someone has to maintain the lua part

and that's where I think a standardized language might be superior, be it lua or javascript

heinrich5991

and that's where I think a standardized language might be superior, be it lua or javascript

But that makes no sense xD