DDraceNetwork - mapping

yo guys, a quick question. do u think that releasing new novice and moderate maps are needed? imo there plenty of maps in these categories - for a new player all of these maps would be new and for players that have some amount of skills these maps are just there for grinding points. also if u completed all novices you should be good enough for moderate maps and if u completed them you should be able for brutal/dummy/etc. so we're currently releasing them just to have new content, no? so basically new maps in these difficulty doesnt really matter... what is your opinion about this? (not that we wanna change something rn, but i really wanna know what your opinion is) (edited)

imo we still need really easy maps

Patiga

imo we still need really easy maps

okay ye, ill see that. but what about maps which fits (lets say) novice 3* to moderate 3*

I think there are quite a lot of nice ones in the ~novice 3-4 territorium, but I don't really have an idea about the transition between novice and moderate

some people like to keep playing lower maps in a more chill way, i dont think its needed to completely close down a category

21:27

and also since the standards are higher now / more maps already released, a newer mod 2 should theoritically be better than a 5 years old one, so why prevent players from having this?

21:28

is there a negative impact of having "too many maps" as long as the quality is maintained?

for me the negative impact in novice maps are, that there is rarely somthing new that comes up. so the parts may be in some way different, but will teach you the same stuff a map will teach you that was released 1 year ago

21:30

in moderate you can play with a bit stuff here and there, but we already have 340 maps in moderate difficulty

What newly released hh maps teach you?

♂S1mple♂

What newly released hh maps teach you?

you absolutely can't see that as a comparison

I think it might be good to encourage maps which take higher-difficulty mechanics and make them easier in some way to introduce/teach them. for example hammerhit is a huge jump in difficulty, as are other mechanics.

Savalic

in moderate you can play with a bit stuff here and there, but we already have 340 maps in moderate difficulty

we also have 420 brutal maps

Savalic

you absolutely can't see that as a comparison

I wanna know why

21:33

They are also 70-90% non original

♂S1mple♂

I wanna know why

cause i asked for opinions about novice/moderate maps and not wanted to discuss my opinion now

i agree with the fact that there is no point releasing more and more maps if they're just redundant with each other (see a lot of "drag maps" in ddmax category), but that applies to every server type including brutal; why would it justify refraining/discouraging mappers from trying to make maps on a specific difficulty? (edited)

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I mostly think of novice maps as maps which introduce you to the basics of the game. drag parts in high-star-novice-difficulty have plenty of maps with creative parts. i see potential for many novice maps which focus on non-drag elements. (my point kinda being here that maybe(!) we should try to discourage more high-star novice drag maps, and not novice maps overall)

21:36

hm, my message above matches quite well with @snail 's message

snail

i agree with the fact that there is no point releasing more and more maps if they're just redundant with each other (see a lot of "drag maps" in ddmax category), but that applies to every server type including brutal; why would it justify refraining/discouraging mappers from trying to make maps on a specific difficulty? (edited)

This is probably more a matter of what the system is supposed to encourage as this could raise the average skill base of the community

If the maps are good It shouldn't be an issue

you can't please everyone, pros will rush through easy maps to grind points, and newbies will ignore hard maps. Each category should have plenty of good quality maps to choose from.

Patiga

I mostly think of novice maps as maps which introduce you to the basics of the game. drag parts in high-star-novice-difficulty have plenty of maps with creative parts. i see potential for many novice maps which focus on non-drag elements. (my point kinda being here that maybe(!) we should try to discourage more high-star novice drag maps, and not novice maps overall)

you just can't map novice with what they are trying to do with the rating system. Just look at open lane for example. it has some ""gore"", some hooks, NO HAMMER, and some really easy tech. So unless you make a map where the ONLY thing you do is walking, you just can't map novice withouth focusing on non drag.

Freezy

This is probably more a matter of what the system is supposed to encourage as this could raise the average skill base of the community

yes but not everyone plays to improve/wants to play challenging maps, as @ReD said to each his own so I think we should just encourage mappers to make what they like as long as the quality standards are maintained

Though I'd rather have far fewer maps that are of much higher quality rather than a million maps of the same mechanic or some poorly designed map

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Broso56

Though I'd rather have far fewer maps that are of much higher quality rather than a million maps of the same mechanic or some poorly designed map

i would actually +1 that

snail

yes but not everyone plays to improve/wants to play challenging maps, as @ReD said to each his own so I think we should just encourage mappers to make what they like as long as the quality standards are maintained

what about even higher quality standards for novice/moderate maps to still motivate people to get to brutal level but not completely closing a category then?

i think it kinda was already the case

Broso56

Though I'd rather have far fewer maps that are of much higher quality rather than a million maps of the same mechanic or some poorly designed map

oh it's basically the same as this, sorry xD

i remember jao declining a lot of novice maps coz they weren't bringing anything new

21:41

and now there are so few novice maps being submitted anyway

Freezy

oh it's basically the same as this, sorry xD

I'm more talking in general, not just for easier maps in my point

imo novice maps are the first maps that a new players sees, so these maps needs to have the highest rules in terms of gameplay and design

Freezy

what about even higher quality standards for novice/moderate maps to still motivate people to get to brutal level but not completely closing a category then?

Have you seen novice testing channels recently? They declined a map that imo was pretty good for this so called "highed quality standards", so I guess this has already been the case for a while now. these quality standards apparently are just hard to apply everywhere...

Devinci

you just can't map novice with what they are trying to do with the rating system. Just look at open lane for example. it has some ""gore"", some hooks, NO HAMMER, and some really easy tech. So unless you make a map where the ONLY thing you do is walking, you just can't map novice withouth focusing on non drag.

fair, I guess most would fit better into moderate. though this discussion is also about moderate maps

Freezy

what about even higher quality standards for novice/moderate maps to still motivate people to get to brutal level but not completely closing a category then?

but yes i agree with that too, novice/mod is more limited than brutal/insane obviously, so having a higher quality map is harder than on brutal since you can't just rely on doing mechanically hard parts

Would be nice to have some separation for more lenient/lesser quality maps and good high quality maps that are fun (to most)

Savalic

imo novice maps are the first maps that a new players sees, so these maps needs to have the highest rules in terms of gameplay and design

This is also very important, a new player could load sketch and think every map makes you wait like that

Broso56

Would be nice to have some separation for more lenient/lesser quality maps and good high quality maps that are fun (to most)

Yeah, and then you'll say to the mapper: "Your map goes to shit category", have fun uploading it... :/ Now seriously, that separation is already kinda being done between oldschool and "normal" categories

Imagine new player hops on skillz

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Devinci

Yeah, and then you'll say to the mapper: "Your map goes to shit category", have fun uploading it... :/ Now seriously, that separation is already kinda being done between oldschool and "normal" categories

Doesn't necessarily have to be like that, it could be similar to the skins separation of normal vs community kind of

then you have ddrock, even tho that is not related to ddnet (edited)

It's still nice to have a place to host the maps and get people to play it

Devinci

Yeah, and then you'll say to the mapper: "Your map goes to shit category", have fun uploading it... :/ Now seriously, that separation is already kinda being done between oldschool and "normal" categories

Not really, oldschool maps are made <2014

yeah, and are still somehow being published constantly

21:45

I wonder how

People have maps saved

Devinci

yeah, and are still somehow being published constantly

Cause they are initially made before

can we go back to novice/moderate? xd

Yea don't close category ples, my opinion (edited)

nobody said that we wanna do that

What are opinions for then

to consider if we should change something

21:47

thats why i asked

I personally don't care how many maps we have in said categories. I personally view map releases as a constant stream of new content. I'm perfectly fine with playing easy maps. Playing with new players newly released novice maps is pretty fun too. (edited)

Patiga

imo we still need really easy maps

what do u think about this @murpi

21:49

cause thats imo definitly the case

increasing novice quality standards over the years could lead to the problem that you cut off new mappers. So maybe slightly or moderately increasing the target quality level for repeated maps from the same mapper could make sense, and less severe for new mappers.

1

For novice it is very important to make sure new players can find good (and easy) maps, as it's their very first impression of the game

Savalic

can we go back to novice/moderate? xd

Discouraging players to map novice UNLESS they got an actual ORIGINAL idea? why not. on moderate well, I think there's still plenty of ideas to explore. Just mappers liking to map the exact same thing but in a better/worse way. I do not think maps should be rejected for that reason tho. Once a map is submitted it shouldn't get rejected because "oh well, you are the 239th player with the same concept, unlucky"

Just having a few maps players can use as a "standard" for each category would be beneficial

21:51

Or at least novice/mod

ReD

increasing novice quality standards over the years could lead to the problem that you cut off new mappers. So maybe slightly or moderately increasing the target quality level for repeated maps from the same mapper could make sense, and less severe for new mappers.

but doing that, these players will only see this high standard maps and get a feeling for that what is expected to be released. so the amount of declinings could be lower

Broso56

For novice it is very important to make sure new players can find good (and easy) maps, as it's their very first impression of the game

When i first loaded the game i just hoped on the most popular server which was, easy to guess, multeasymap

21:52

I bet some new players do the same (edited)

Broso56

Just having a few maps players can use as a "standard" for each category would be beneficial

No? I mean, that's for me the same thing as limiting the originality of new maps even more. With the amount of same maps we are getting, it should be the contrary. "Do not do maps like these: (insert standard)" (edited)

Broso56

Just having a few maps players can use as a "standard" for each category would be beneficial

"look at a newly released maps" is a thing

I moreso mean a good starting point, so new players aren't lead to the game/new category thinking every map is as bad as x

21:54

Maps that you'd recommend to a player if they were to ask

Savalic

but doing that, these players will only see this high standard maps and get a feeling for that what is expected to be released. so the amount of declinings could be lower

If I was a new mapper I would like to see good maps to know what I am aiming for. As long as there is a discussion with the testers that guide me in the right direction, I don't see a major problem here. I also think you shouldn't raise the standard by too much at once.

♂S1mple♂

"look at a newly released maps" is a thing

then this is already a thing, it's what most testers say to declined maps

‍♂️

Broso56

I moreso mean a good starting point, so new players aren't lead to the game/new category thinking every map is as bad as x

to avoid this you only can create a new difficulty "Beginner" with absolutly easy gameplay and banger designs

Devinci

then this is already a thing, it's what most testers say to declined maps

‍♂️

Exactly

but dont forget that we are all doing that in our freetime, and have to say a few times a week. i dont wanna explain every 2 days someone how to map

Savalic

to avoid this you only can create a new difficulty "Beginner" with absolutly easy gameplay and banger designs

If the whole category/point system got a rework this would fit in nicely, but I'm not sure how many points beginner maps would be

Broso56

If the whole category/point system got a rework this would fit in nicely, but I'm not sure how many points beginner maps would be

there is no other option than 0-1 point

0 is fun, so only 1 is left ^^

"You got 0 points for completing a map!"

Devinci

0 is fun, so only 1 is left ^^

There's 0* race maps, which give no points

21:58

I'm pretty sure anyway

♂S1mple♂

"You got 0 points for completing a map!"

change this sentence to "Congratulations, you finished your first map!" or something like that

There's also a few weirdly rated maps like a 0* mod which is = to a 5* novice

Savalic

change this sentence to "Congratulations, you finished your first map!" or something like that

I'll be so happy to get that message when finishing my first 0 points beginner map trollet

1

I'd just remove that message entirely/change it for beginner category

"You finished the map!"

Broso56

There's 0* race maps, which give no points

okay yeah, I just went to see what maps are qualified as 0 points maps. They are literally straight lines/45 seconds maps at most. So I doubt it could fit nicely in novice/easier

NUT_short_race3 is 0 stars DDMaX, too

Broso56

There's also a few weirdly rated maps like a 0* mod which is = to a 5* novice

started re rating but lost motivation on it

selected-novice-maps-proposal-patiga.txt

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Sure, I just mean ddnet has 0 points maps in other categories

1 point for beginner map is good i think

Cøke

started re rating but lost motivation on it

Imo that's not something anyone should do alone. 1. it's a lot of work. 2. It's wayyy too subjective

check it and check the maps to see how its done? :

I've just seen goo and dark moon as mod 1. When imo goo is already harder than dark moon by a margin, so yeah

22:08

And why would I. You do not care about my opinion, and we both know I disagree with most of your ratings

‍♂️

you should find out the answer for yourself, i already know it as i said

22:09

it's more about understanding the game and game mechanics that new players simply don't know

♂S1mple♂

What newly released hh maps teach you?

to answer this now... imo hammerhit is a category on its own (like moderate to brutal or kog to ddnet)

Why not improving on the voting system and map finder instead of not releasing maps for a certain category? We could have a much cleaner and organized map finder which allows us to move maps on a certain sections. Right now is just all over the place xD (imo) and novice players wont even know how to change map only if they start clicking on stuff, there is no guidance or section that says "Maps" or smth that tells you "hey you can vote maps here on an empty server of DDnet" you have to go in "Call Votes" (which is also bad titled). Also when scrolling down the titles/divided sections are weird. There is a "oldschool" section in brutal? (edited)

23:06

We have some weird titles like, "old but gold" or "Selected maps" "oldschool (for no reason)" and then "other maps" xD its all over the place

we have still "oldschool maps" in brutal voting with one new map in it