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DDraceNetwork
Development / developer
Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.org/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet
Between 2023-10-07 00:00:00Z and 2023-10-08 00:00:00Z
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Neben
Hello, can someone tell me all the steps required to create a new vote category on ddnet, and define the according points per stars, please? To give the context, I'd like to add the supposed new solo and multi trials categories to ddnet, I got solid bases in c++ and I never actually coded on the ddnet source any tips is welcome giftee_green
Learath2 was pretty clear about this. We won't consider adding the new categories without prior discussion.
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murpi
Learath2 was pretty clear about this. We won't consider adding the new categories without prior discussion.
Hm, from who? Coz it seemed pretty clear to me that it was accepted. Pipou, Nehr and VéNa already have done all the work for it, the only thing missing is the code side (edited)
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@Ryozuki found another rusthead in the wild cursor is an entire moment to say "RUST IS THE BEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE" and the red dot is where he says "blazingly"
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the proper term is rustacean last i heard
04:54
and they are not hard to find
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Ewan
the proper term is rustacean last i heard
yeah but that involves me caring
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how does the proper term for something rely on you caring
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I still hate rust
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u seem to care alot tho since u tell me always
07:13
justatest
07:33
good morning ryozuki
07:33
how are you on this fine evening
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Now it will only disable practice when using kill, I only added this to SV_TEAM_FORCED_SOLO because it's already possible to keep practice on death in team by not touching the startline. Closes #7304 https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/assets/141338449/eb795d8f-0f37-4353-ae2e-79448b607150

Checklist

  • [x] Tested the change ingame
  • [x] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
  • [ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
  • [ ] Written a unit test (e...
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Ewan
how are you on this fine evening
Its 11am kek
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Ewan
how are you on this fine evening
quite good
08:07
and u
08:07
its morning tho
08:07
im closer to utc
08:07
the truth
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MilkeeyCat
Its 11am kek
I disagree
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Ryozuki
and u
doing alright
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apple user smh
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what else
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i dislike google
08:08
apple is the lesser of two evils
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I’m doubting your doubt rn
08:11
politics aside i like the iphone better. it’s just cool
08:12
awesome build quality and feel
08:12
runs mostly native software
08:12
ecosystem etc
08:12
i’ve used both and it’s the better experience imo
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Ryozuki
u seem to care alot tho since u tell me always
not really thinking about you when I said that
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i was not talking about u
08:15
my apology owo
08:17
Catxplosion
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nothing worked because of .sort() in my code pepeW
08:25
the funny thing is it has to compare as <=, if i remove = it will work on website but not in node, if i keep it it doesnt work in firefox but works in node
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TsFreddie
Catxplosion
owo
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MilkeeyCat
the funny thing is it has to compare as <=, if i remove = it will work on website but not in node, if i keep it it doesnt work in firefox but works in node
easiest fix in my life pepeW
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Ewan
awesome build quality and feel
Many brands make android phones, all have different build quality and feel
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MilkeeyCat
easiest fix in my life pepeW
i mean 3rd looks like the correct one
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Ryozuki
i mean 3rd looks like the correct one
why the hell did it even work before 😭
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MilkeeyCat
easiest fix in my life pepeW
This is such a js moment wtf
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returning 0 is for when they equal
09:20
but on the first 2 u dont return 0 never, so if a <= b it returns 1
09:20
but if b <= a it returns 1
09:20
if a == b
09:20
it returns 1
09:20
if b == a
09:20
it returns 1
09:20
do u see the bug
09:21
or well idk, i need a coffee
09:21
@Learath2 did u watch the anime baki
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It's actually allowed in some sorting algorithms, but I bet in js you require strict weak ordering
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is js sort stable?
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Ryozuki
@Learath2 did u watch the anime baki
Not yet, it's on my list of things to watch sometime after jjk
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Learath2
Not yet, it's on my list of things to watch sometime after jjk
its a rly bizarre anime
09:22
of strong men using bare first techniques fighting against strong men using whathever cheat they can
09:22
xd
09:23
well thats for the netflix show
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Ah js has even stricter requirements on the comparefn
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Ryozuki
is js sort stable?
Yes
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@Robyt3 refactoring the envelope points is gonna be a lot more work than i thought. So I want to make sure the new classes look decent before I actually do it 😄 What do you think of the following classes? They store the data in the normal mapitems to allow implementing the envelope accessor. c++ class CCurveInfo { enum class EType { LINEAR, STEP, } m_Type; vec2 GetBezierTangentOffsetStart() const; void SetBezierTangentOffsetStart(vec2 TangentOffset); vec2 GetBezierTangentOffsetEnd() const; void SetBezierTangentOffsetEnd(vec2 TangentOffset); private: CEnvPointBezier m_BezierInfo; }; struct CTransform { float OffsetX; float OffsetY; float Rotation; }; class CEnvelopePoint { public: float GetTime() const; void SetTime(float Time); float GetVolume() const; void SetVolume(float Volume); CTransform GetTransform() const; void SetTransform(const CTransform &Transform); ColorRGBA GetColor() const; void SetColor(const ColorRGBA &Color); std::array<float, 4> GetValues() const; void SetValues(const std::array<float, 4>& Values); CCurveInfo m_CurveInfo; private: // also store the points inheriting from CEditorObject in this class // std::vector<std::array<CEnvelopeEditorPoint, 4>> m_vEditorPoints; CEnvPoint m_PointInfo; };
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marmare_314
@Robyt3 refactoring the envelope points is gonna be a lot more work than i thought. So I want to make sure the new classes look decent before I actually do it 😄 What do you think of the following classes? They store the data in the normal mapitems to allow implementing the envelope accessor. c++ class CCurveInfo { enum class EType { LINEAR, STEP, } m_Type; vec2 GetBezierTangentOffsetStart() const; void SetBezierTangentOffsetStart(vec2 TangentOffset); vec2 GetBezierTangentOffsetEnd() const; void SetBezierTangentOffsetEnd(vec2 TangentOffset); private: CEnvPointBezier m_BezierInfo; }; struct CTransform { float OffsetX; float OffsetY; float Rotation; }; class CEnvelopePoint { public: float GetTime() const; void SetTime(float Time); float GetVolume() const; void SetVolume(float Volume); CTransform GetTransform() const; void SetTransform(const CTransform &Transform); ColorRGBA GetColor() const; void SetColor(const ColorRGBA &Color); std::array<float, 4> GetValues() const; void SetValues(const std::array<float, 4>& Values); CCurveInfo m_CurveInfo; private: // also store the points inheriting from CEditorObject in this class // std::vector<std::array<CEnvelopeEditorPoint, 4>> m_vEditorPoints; CEnvPoint m_PointInfo; };
So the idea is to add a wrapper class that makes access to the different kinds of envelope point values easier, hence the different getters and setters?
👍 1
09:35
I think we more or less settled on no Get prefix for getters
09:35
CCurveType::m_Type seems redundant since we already have constants in mapitems.h
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-10-07 09:48:01Z
Usually all things I search for only yield a few results. It’s not that big. Searching the code for keywords works super well
Replying to @Neben I mean, this is a big source code, I just wanted a first view on this
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Robyt3
I think we more or less settled on no Get prefix for getters
So it would be CEnvelopePoint::Time and CEnvelopePoint::SetTime?
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marmare_314
So it would be CEnvelopePoint::Time and CEnvelopePoint::SetTime?
yeah
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Robyt3
CCurveType::m_Type seems redundant since we already have constants in mapitems.h
I added them for the constructors. Since CCurveInfo(EType Type) is a bit nicer than CCurveInfo(int Type), but that doesnt really matter. Or I can also make them a seperate enum in mapitems and then use that
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Probably easier to use int Type with a comment for now, instead of changing mapitems.h
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Might be nice to go through the code sometime and use named scoped enums for many of these things
10:52
719b2bd add editor object class - Marmare314 093edb7 Merge pull request #7308 from Marmare314/add-editor-object - Robyt3
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It would be great if we could display clanmates in the navy blue shade, mirroring the color used for friendslist clanmates, in the server information. The motivation behind this request stems from the current issue where, after adding a clan to the friendslist and then selecting one of the clan members in the server info box, there is no visual feedback and the clan member is moved out of the clanmates list and into the friendslist.
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Oops, wrong repo
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It would be great if we could display clanmates in the navy blue shade, mirroring the color used for friendslist clanmates, in the server information. The motivation behind this request stems from the current issue where, after adding a clan to the friendslist and then selecting one of the clan members in the server info box, there is no visual feedback and the clan member is moved out of the clanmates list and into the friendslist.
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closes #7315 !serverinfo

Checklist

  • [x] Tested the change ingame
  • [x] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
  • [ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
  • [ ] Written a unit test (especially base/) or added coverage to integration test
  • [ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
  • [ ] Changed no physics that affect existing ...
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MilkeeyCat
easiest fix in my life pepeW
you could also do something like (a, b) => { return b.frequency - a.frequency; } because only the sign matters
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I am a simple man. If the docs say it has to return -1, 0 or 1. I make it to return those values
13:52
And hope it doesn't break one day justatest
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where da hell can i find code which is related to drawing stuff from demo
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アリヂン
you could also do something like (a, b) => { return b.frequency - a.frequency; } because only the sign matters
idk if i recommend that if they are floats
14:10
but i guess they arent xd
14:10
but again u have no types so ur never sure
14:10
safe coding in js requires millions of typeof checks
14:10
kek
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js wasnt made for safe coding justatest
14:12
To be precise, IEEE-754 floating point subtraction is functionally complete. That means you can construct any binary circuit using nothing but floating point subtraction.
14:12
xd
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MilkeeyCat
js wasnt made for safe coding justatest
ok i meant "defensive programming"
14:13
some people are definitly evil
14:14
Billionaire property developer Tim Gurner said in September that "We need to see unemployment rise. We need it to rise 40-50%. We need to see pain in the economy. We need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around."
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Ryozuki
ok i meant "defensive programming"
Defensive programming is a technique that helps programmers to write programs that are more resistant to bugs and vulnerabilities. These techniques are actually a set of programming guidelines and habits that will immeasurably improve your comprehension, quality and predictability.
14:15
justatest
14:15
Defensive programming is a form of defensive design intended to develop programs that are capable of detecting potential security abnormalities and make predetermined responses. It ensures the continuing function of a piece of software under unforeseen circumstances. Defensive programming practices are often used where high availability, safety,...
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bugs and vulnerabilities in ts? pff, as any is the safest thing in the world owo
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nice pfp
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i was expecting some weird stuff there, but no, rather simple use of sign bit
15:00
though the assembly code at the end is hilarious 😄
16:02
fc23f45 show clanmates in different color - dobrykafe 0838fd9 fix requested changes - dobrykafe a91374b Merge pull request #7316 from dobrykafe/pr-server-info-colors - Robyt3
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MilkeeyCat
nice pfp
owo
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The context menu should have a color field (like in the layer context-menu) instead of showing the value of the selected channel.
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@Neben holly cow, how big essay are you writing
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Can I get the dev role if I am a developer of a separate client and server type? Or is it mandatory to make a PR?
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murpi
Learath2 was pretty clear about this. We won't consider adding the new categories without prior discussion.
Hey, When is the discussion planned? Also, is it planned to be done with Pipou? I understand that you guys have to be the one to open the doors when it comes about new features, but as a testing leader, an experienced player and mapper, a hard-worker, his opinion is as important. I don't think that you guys have the rights to make such a WIP wait, especially when all the big parts have already been done. You just have to agree or disagree, as most of the discussion already have been covered with all the testers and more.
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MilkeeyCat
@Neben holly cow, how big essay are you writing
the small but thought one
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Neben
Hey, When is the discussion planned? Also, is it planned to be done with Pipou? I understand that you guys have to be the one to open the doors when it comes about new features, but as a testing leader, an experienced player and mapper, a hard-worker, his opinion is as important. I don't think that you guys have the rights to make such a WIP wait, especially when all the big parts have already been done. You just have to agree or disagree, as most of the discussion already have been covered with all the testers and more.
My apologies, I wasn't aware that the administrators responsible for overseeing the entire infrastructure are not involved in your decision-making process. Certainly, I will do what is necessary.
17:04
As for the discussion, We been waiting for over Pipou to speak up, since all the planning and discussions weren't done exclusively in the internal channels, but somewhere else.
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murpi
My apologies, I wasn't aware that the administrators responsible for overseeing the entire infrastructure are not involved in your decision-making process. Certainly, I will do what is necessary.
I understand you, but this is not meaningful as you could just allow those changes to be done without a prior discussion, if the charge is too big. Trust the actual people that worked on it.
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These changes are more than just minor adjustments. You're introducing two whole new categories, which seem to cater to a relatively niche audience.
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Learath2
Many brands make android phones, all have different build quality and feel
u think i don't know it?
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Introducing these new categories -as is- will have significant long-term repercussions. (edited)
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murpi
As for the discussion, We been waiting for over Pipou to speak up, since all the planning and discussions weren't done exclusively in the internal channels, but somewhere else.
I mean, from what I've heard, it has been done in the testing channel in messages where you were pinged. Also, I would just take every message and make a synthesis of the whole discussion with chatgpt, it's not like he hasn't done most of the work already.
17:16
It is also available in #📌info
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murpi
Introducing these new categories -as is- will have significant long-term repercussions. (edited)
Such a thing has been done already, with the new hammer feature where you can hold in freeze. Heinrich developed it and released it without discussing it with the testers and players.
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Okey, let's just go back for a moment. What's ddnet testing to you?
17:21
Or rather, what exactly is the purpose of testing here on ddnet?
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People trusted for their opinion about mapping, playing, and game design
17:22
Also I'd rather not have this discussion since it's taking time on what we actually want
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Ewan
u think i don't know it?
Unless your claim is no android device has comparable build quality, yes that's what your statement would imply
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murpi
Or rather, what exactly is the purpose of testing here on ddnet?
Allow or disallow changes on the game, in the maps section, by accepting or declining new maps (edited)
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Neben
Allow or disallow changes on the game, in the maps section, by accepting or declining new maps (edited)
That is not how we envisioned testing, and those things are far beyond the scope of duties we entrusted to this group of testers (and all previous tester groups actually). Therein lies the concern. It's like your local police making their own laws.
17:27
Not like we aren't open to change, we are just saying it needs proper discussion with not just testers
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Neben
Also I'd rather not have this discussion since it's taking time on what we actually want
Indeed, that's the core problem we're currently working to address, rather than engaging in a discussion, we're simply being told what to do. "From what I've heard" is telling me how out of touch all people seem in our testing staff.
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Learath2
That is not how we envisioned testing, and those things are far beyond the scope of duties we entrusted to this group of testers (and all previous tester groups actually). Therein lies the concern. It's like your local police making their own laws.
You never actually had a word about it tho, since you never said anything about maps being released, so you entrusted those people opinions
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You edited that message btw. They are free to accept and decline whatever they want and use whatever means necessary to facilitate that. What maps get released is technically solely up to Pipou. That's the scope of the testing team. Deciding what maps get released
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Learath2
Not like we aren't open to change, we are just saying it needs proper discussion with not just testers
I agree everyone's opinion is important, but tbh but this logic doesnt apply since developers kinda do what they want on the game. Maps have been destroyed, 2 of Pipou's maps, or Pulsars maps, because of changes they made.
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What is not solely up to them is to just introduce completely new points structures, seasonal maps, new categories. These kinds of larger changes we'd like to have input on if you'll allow us that courtesy
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murpi
Indeed, that's the core problem we're currently working to address, rather than engaging in a discussion, we're simply being told what to do. "From what I've heard" is telling me how out of touch all people seem in our testing staff.
I don't think so, since you have the last word about it, and you actually choose new features by yourselves without discussing with others important opinions. Indeed, this is the core of the problem, since you only trust admin's opinions, admins that mostly dont even play the game anymore
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Neben
I agree everyone's opinion is important, but tbh but this logic doesnt apply since developers kinda do what they want on the game. Maps have been destroyed, 2 of Pipou's maps, or Pulsars maps, because of changes they made.
You're doing the exact same. Your last sentence here implies that developers responsible for maintaining the game client are deliberately causing issues with people's maps, which is obviously not the case.
17:34
admins that mostly dont even play the game anymore
This also has no relevancy and is in fact false.
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Learath2
What is not solely up to them is to just introduce completely new points structures, seasonal maps, new categories. These kinds of larger changes we'd like to have input on if you'll allow us that courtesy
I agree, it's not solely up to them. Thats why I've been asking for more transparency about the needed discussion
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murpi
You're doing the exact same. Your last sentence here implies that developers responsible for maintaining the game client are deliberately causing issues with people's maps, which is obviously not the case.
I'm saying that they're taking important decisions without prior discussions. (edited)
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Neben
I don't think so, since you have the last word about it, and you actually choose new features by yourselves without discussing with others important opinions. Indeed, this is the core of the problem, since you only trust admin's opinions, admins that mostly dont even play the game anymore
I don't get what relevance this has. The only way I can make any sense of it is if you are implying we should just not do anything and replace ourselves with the testers
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murpi
admins that mostly dont even play the game anymore
This also has no relevancy and is in fact false.
It is relevant, since they dont actually play the maps that need to be move in the new categories, and understand in a tangible way why it is important to have them, as they might not have a gamer perspective (edited)
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This is entirely irrelevant to the issue we're attempting to address.
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Learath2
I don't get what relevance this has. The only way I can make any sense of it is if you are implying we should just not do anything and replace ourselves with the testers
It is relevant that testers opinions, especially the lead tester, are important too in the decision making process
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Neben
It is relevant that testers opinions, especially the lead tester, are important too in the decision making process
What part of the decision making process. The process of picking maps is entirely up to the testing leader. We don't even impose any criteria, exactly because none of us claim to have great judgement of what makes a good map
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murpi
This is entirely irrelevant to the issue we're attempting to address.
The actual issue, is the work being postponed because the lead tester is not as much entrusted as admins. Also we know this isnt only about people's authority, we know Pipou, and he's not just a lead tester (edited)
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Just because you delegate some part of management to a team doesn't make that team the sole authority on everything
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Neben
The actual issue, is the work being postponed because the lead tester is not as much entrusted as admins. Also we know this isnt only about people's authority, we know Pipou, and he's not just a lead tester (edited)
Work is not being postponed. We'd like to hear from your beloved testing leader about his proposed changes and why he thinks they are the way to go. It's not an insane ask you know
17:47
It's just not in the scope of his duties to decide that alone, period. It's not a very complex system. If he thinks we are inept, he should contact us and let us know. Not just start making decisions on his own
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Learath2
Work is not being postponed. We'd like to hear from your beloved testing leader about his proposed changes and why he thinks they are the way to go. It's not an insane ask you know
It appears to be the case because my sanity is slowly eroding.
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murpi
It appears to be the case because my sanity is slowly eroding.
I know exactly the issue at hand here. Perks of being here for an entire decade I still remember the 2 testing teams of the past that just started deciding things on their own
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Learath2
Unless your claim is no android device has comparable build quality, yes that's what your statement would imply
well i don't know how you could possibly do any better than apple at it, i'm just saying the build quality is great & there are androids out there with good quality too (modern samsungs with the glass are nice) but that's not my point
17:49
it's just one of the factors that makes me like the iphone better
17:49
android unrelated
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FWIW. I'm even okay with the changes. I'm not okay with it not being discussed with us at all
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It's akin to constantly reiterating oneself, only to have others persistently ignore or fail to comprehend the message.
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Ewan
well i don't know how you could possibly do any better than apple at it, i'm just saying the build quality is great & there are androids out there with good quality too (modern samsungs with the glass are nice) but that's not my point
So you are saying they can't do better than apple but they can?
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it's not as good imo
17:50
there are little bits of plastic on samsungs still
17:50
last i had one
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Sorry to erode you sanity murpi by questioning the actual decision making process.
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Though I do get your point, apple does have good build quality most of the time
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i mean there's not a single aspect of my phone's build that i wish the apple designers had done differently
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Ewan
there are little bits of plastic on samsungs still
The samsung in my hand is completely glass and metal, the one I had before this one was also completely glass and metal and the one before that
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i guess mine has it cuz it's the z fold
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Ewan
i mean there's not a single aspect of my phone's build that i wish the apple designers had done differently
repairability?
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insurance/warranty
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Neben
Sorry to erode you sanity murpi by questioning the actual decision making process.
There was no decision making process here. That is the only issue. Decisions were made, then we were told
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Learath2
There was no decision making process here. That is the only issue. Decisions were made, then we were told
Aint it an open source game? Devs do the same thing
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Ewan
i guess mine has it cuz it's the z fold
I mean the thing bends. I'd love to see apple make bending glass. It's a material science issue
17:52
i don't think samsung is making the glass tho
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They make a new feature, and then make a pr
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the screens u have a point on tho since last i heard apple uses samsung screens
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Neben
Aint it an open source game? Devs do the same thing
That goes both ways. If you don't like the way we operate, all the code is free, you can host your own paradise today (edited)
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Ewan
the screens u have a point on tho since last i heard apple uses samsung screens
Everyone and their mothers use samsung, lg or sony panels on all good screens
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Learath2
That goes both ways. If you don't like the way we operate, all the code is free, you can host your own paradise today (edited)
Thats true, but we're fighting for something we love. It's not like we want to divide everyone. (edited)
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Learath2
Everyone and their mothers use samsung, lg or sony panels on all good screens
yeah
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Conceptionally, those two new categories would be a lot more ...convenient? ...fitting? on an entirely different network.
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And again your voice will be more important there murpi, than Pipou's one. I don't think admins should have the last word
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Neben
And again your voice will be more important there murpi, than Pipou's one. I don't think admins should have the last word
Okay now you are saying what you really mean. No need to skirt around it
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if they really want to discuss about it, they have to go on themselves and check what has been told
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what's even going on here
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Ewan
what's even going on here
saturday's drama
💯 1
17:57
🍿
😃 1
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You think Pipou should be the one to make the decisions. If Pipou thinks he should have more say in things, he should contact us, not have random people send us messages in his behest
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does ddnet have some code docs? justatest (sorry to interrupt drama) (edited)
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No I think everyone should be able to make decisions, and then it'd equally be approved by others
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MilkeeyCat
does ddnet have some code docs? justatest (sorry to interrupt drama) (edited)
@Ryozuki was documenting a bit, but I think he gave up on it, too complex
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admins voice is overrated
17:58
also I'm not a random Learath, i may have been played more time on this game than you
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Neben
And again your voice will be more important there murpi, than Pipou's one. I don't think admins should have the last word
That holds true when people align with my viewpoint. The concept of a 'more significant voice' does not apply here.
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Though you have been here for more years
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Learath2
@Ryozuki was documenting a bit, but I think he gave up on it, too complex
where can i find it?
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murpi
That holds true when people align with my viewpoint. The concept of a 'more significant voice' does not apply here.
I don't understand, the concept applies (edited)
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Neben
also I'm not a random Learath, i may have been played more time on this game than you
Is that it? You find us to be too bad at the game to make decisions? I have thousands of hours too, I'm just not very good.
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skill issue
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Learath2
Is that it? You find us to be too bad at the game to make decisions? I have thousands of hours too, I'm just not very good.
It means that my voice is also important, since I'm also very involved in the game
18:01
Pipou doesn't have the strength anymore to discuss, because this is just a warfield everytime
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MilkeeyCat
does ddnet have some code docs? justatest (sorry to interrupt drama) (edited)
You can find a bit on the wiki along with the external resources linked there, https://wiki.ddnet.org/wiki/Development (edited)
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Neben
No I think everyone should be able to make decisions, and then it'd equally be approved by others
Stop mincing your words. The last thing you care about is equal voices. You want your guys voice above ours, which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, just not allowed to mask it as some quest for fairness.
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Learath2
Stop mincing your words. The last thing you care about is equal voices. You want your guys voice above ours, which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, just not allowed to mask it as some quest for fairness.
Okay, now you're saying what you really meant too
18:04
Because thats absolutely not what I want tho
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Neben
Pipou doesn't have the strength anymore to discuss, because this is just a warfield everytime
I've been completely clear in what I'm saying. Some of the latest changes are beyond the scope of duties of the testing team, period. I'm saying nothing more nothing less
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murpi
Conceptionally, those two new categories would be a lot more ...convenient? ...fitting? on an entirely different network.
@Neben I haven't presented a fact here, but rather expressed an opinion. If others align with my viewpoint here, it holds some merit.
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Honestly I'm really getting tired of all this useless unecessary conflict with testing teams every single time
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And tbh, I don't even understand how you could even imply that? Like bro you're just being mean for nothing. You don't know me, and I just fight for something important to me. The game is at the hands of the admins and you can't deny that.
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Learath2
Honestly I'm really getting tired of all this useless unecessary conflict with testing teams every single time
Also if you really think thats what I want, just put Pipou admin, and he'll have an equal voice to yours. As your system works.
18:07
It's not a binary world, this is a game with its universe, hear people voices, not only because of their authority (edited)
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Neben
And tbh, I don't even understand how you could even imply that? Like bro you're just being mean for nothing. You don't know me, and I just fight for something important to me. The game is at the hands of the admins and you can't deny that.
Not like we ever hid the fact that we make the final decision on everything. You are making it sound like this is something new
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Learath2
Not like we ever hid the fact that we make the final decision on everything. You are making it sound like this is something new
Im contesting that.
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If you want that to change or if you want Pipou to be an admin aswell that is another discussion. But currently the changes they decided on are beyond the scope of their task, and we'd like to just hear something about it
18:08
In no other context is this ever okay. If you don't agree with some structure you don't get to just start acting outside it
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murpi
@Neben I haven't presented a fact here, but rather expressed an opinion. If others align with my viewpoint here, it holds some merit.
Are you saying that someone opinion that dont align with yours has less merit ?
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For the record, I would actually have been completely okay with having pipou be an admin
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Neben
Are you saying that someone opinion that dont align with yours has less merit ?
No, i'm saying the exact opposite.
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murpi
No, i'm saying the exact opposite.
I respect that
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MilkeeyCat
where da hell can i find code which is related to drawing stuff from demo
dont worry guys, i already found it owo
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Learath2
If you want that to change or if you want Pipou to be an admin aswell that is another discussion. But currently the changes they decided on are beyond the scope of their task, and we'd like to just hear something about it
The scope should be bigger.
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Learath2
In no other context is this ever okay. If you don't agree with some structure you don't get to just start acting outside it
If i don't agree with the structure, I ask for it, like I'm doing
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Neben
The scope should be bigger.
I'd love to talk about that with our testing leader, when he is back around
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when can we talk about me becoming an admin? thonk
justatest 1
♻️ 1
18:14
@murpi one day... ull take that justatest back
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murpi
No, i'm saying the exact opposite.
This is also not true for Learath since he just put a period very fast on the discussion
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Can I be an admin
18:15
I’ll make ddnet great again
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Learath2
For the record, I would actually have been completely okay with having pipou be an admin
Uhm... remember the swap hook exploit?
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Neben
If i don't agree with the structure, I ask for it, like I'm doing
You asked for it. No one did before this, you expect us to be clairvoyant aswell?
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murpi
Uhm... remember the swap hook exploit?
I'd probably have to be more precise since we've had so many swap exploits 😬 (edited)
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Learath2
You asked for it. No one did before this, you expect us to be clairvoyant aswell?
This is so untrue, as you said so much people have complained and this is not for nothing, it means there is an actual problem whatever it is
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Neben
This is also not true for Learath since he just put a period very fast on the discussion
I'm not saying my opinion has more merit than yours. (Eventhough you are saying yours has more merit than mine). I'm just saying due to the way ddnet is set up currently. Technically the only person with any right to make any decision is deen. He delegated that job to a team of admins. We all delegated the map approval part of it to the testing team
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murpi
Uhm... remember the swap hook exploit?
Go on. Transparency is welcomed.
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we need a discussion channel. this is spam.
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Teero
we need a discussion channel. this is spam.
sh
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Neben
Go on. Transparency is welcomed.
You can ask Pipou himself. I don't like sharing other peoples secrets.
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It's not an extremely confusing structure, nor is it very fair, but it is how things currently are
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Teero
we need a discussion channel. this is spam.
we also spam here about deving though justatest
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Neben
This is so untrue, as you said so much people have complained and this is not for nothing, it means there is an actual problem whatever it is
No one complained to us. The only time anyone from the testing team ever contacted me is to see if they could either yoink Pipou's spot or if they could become co-testing lead
18:21
There is no huge testing complaints building up over years, it's a fantasy situation. You can't expect anyone to know things they aren't told. If you have a problem, you talk, like you are doing here. Talking about it with your friends in secret dm groups we are not in is not enough
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Learath2
I'm not saying my opinion has more merit than yours. (Eventhough you are saying yours has more merit than mine). I'm just saying due to the way ddnet is set up currently. Technically the only person with any right to make any decision is deen. He delegated that job to a team of admins. We all delegated the map approval part of it to the testing team
Don't worry I'm not saying my opinion matters more than yours, in fact that is the opposite. I understand the actual structure about decision making process, and I contest a part of it which is the last word about any changes being done. Because in the end, it means others voice dont matter, if you don't agree.
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Teero
we need a discussion channel. this is spam.
We don't have one, it'll have to do for tonight (edited)
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Neben
Don't worry I'm not saying my opinion matters more than yours, in fact that is the opposite. I understand the actual structure about decision making process, and I contest a part of it which is the last word about any changes being done. Because in the end, it means others voice dont matter, if you don't agree.
If everyone gets to make decisions then there is chaos. Not like any single one of us can make any decisions on our own either. The last word is not any single persons ever. Even in development, you won't ever see any of us merging our own PRs. Nor will you see outside PRs ever merged without extensive discussion. Whatever feature you hate the most: go take a look at it's PR, it'll have either dozens of comments in github or hours of discussions in this very channel
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Neben
Don't worry I'm not saying my opinion matters more than yours, in fact that is the opposite. I understand the actual structure about decision making process, and I contest a part of it which is the last word about any changes being done. Because in the end, it means others voice dont matter, if you don't agree.
I also think that features developed by admins shouldn't only be discussed with admins.
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Neben
I also think that features developed by admins shouldn't only be discussed with admins.
All PRs are public. There is no secret pipeline everything is submitted to the same place and goes through the same RC process
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WHERE ARE MY STARS
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Learath2
All PRs are public. There is no secret pipeline everything is submitted to the same place and goes through the same RC process
Yes of course, to a dark place most of the players dont even come in
😅 1
18:28
I partially agree but this is not convenient, no one is 100% available to see that a new pr has been done and is game changing
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Quick thought experiment for you. Let's say heinrich's hammer change is happening right now. Of the 5 admins, 3 want it in, 2 don't care. You don't want it, Konsti doesn't want it. The rest of the community didn't raise any opinion. What happens?
18:29
Do we merge or not?
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We ask for more opinions in announcements for example
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Neben
Yes of course, to a dark place most of the players dont even come in
Not my fault if people don't want to involve themselves in the process. We have 2-3 week RCs where it's trivial to review changes just by downloading the new client. We take months on github and discord. I'm not sure how to make it more accessible
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write me in dm everty change u want to make. itd be accessible enough for me
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Neben
We ask for more opinions in announcements for example
Okay opinions came out, 60 people voted, 50 are okay with it but are not very well known players. 10 don't like it, but they are top racers. What happens?
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Learath2
Not my fault if people don't want to involve themselves in the process. We have 2-3 week RCs where it's trivial to review changes just by downloading the new client. We take months on github and discord. I'm not sure how to make it more accessible
You're doing a very good job with the new rc system, but there's no pr for pipou's work its just admins
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Okay hypothetically say we open all the gameplay decisions to a similar RC and PR process, would you be okay with decisions that come out of that? I doubt it because the same system birthed many of the features you don't like
18:33
S/gameplay/management/
18:34
If people don't involve themselves in decisions it'll still be the same handful of people deciding things is what I'm trying to get at
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Learath2
Okay hypothetically say we open all the gameplay decisions to a similar RC and PR process, would you be okay with decisions that come out of that? I doubt it because the same system birthed many of the features you don't like
It's not just binary, the hammer is way more game-changing than the new categoriess
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Learath2
Not my fault if people don't want to involve themselves in the process. We have 2-3 week RCs where it's trivial to review changes just by downloading the new client. We take months on github and discord. I'm not sure how to make it more accessible
I dont think that its not accessible enough, but for non-developers this whole proccess might be a bit intimidating/unkown. Im not saying it should be changed, but maybe there should be an explanation of how to get involved if there is not already.
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marmare_314
I dont think that its not accessible enough, but for non-developers this whole proccess might be a bit intimidating/unkown. Im not saying it should be changed, but maybe there should be an explanation of how to get involved if there is not already.
A week or so ago someone had a decent idea of making a post update poll/forum of sorts on discord, that might help a bit but it'll still be an extremely biased sample of people that probably already cared enough to participate in the RC testing
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Learath2
Okay opinions came out, 60 people voted, 50 are okay with it but are not very well known players. 10 don't like it, but they are top racers. What happens?
this is not enough to judge a new feature
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It's worth trying imo, but if people don't participate it'll still be us who decides things. I can't force people to care
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Neben
this is not enough to judge a new feature
So when can we make changes?
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Maybe you need more admins. With more diversity of experience and players, mappers (edited)
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Neben
Maybe you need more admins. With more diversity of experience and players, mappers (edited)
Now this is a good suggestion that I've been thinking actively about
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me. me. meeee
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I trust the people who are spending their time to contribute and even tho i do not agree with some changes, thats the way this project is being developed. And if a group of players is thinking otherwise, they are free to create another project
👍 1
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Learath2
Now this is a good suggestion that I've been thinking actively about
Am I not good enough? :(
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Or maybe an expansion of the role of testing leader. But these need to be discussed. I can't make decisions on my own. I know how undemocratic it is to have us make all the decisions but internally you can be sure that there is not a single decision that doesn't go through atleast 2 people
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murpi
Am I not good enough? :(
Apparently not. Have you tried getting more r1s?
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Ra...rank ones? I.. I can't rank one with high ping :(
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Vy0x2
I trust the people who are spending their time to contribute and even tho i do not agree with some changes, thats the way this project is being developed. And if a group of players is thinking otherwise, they are free to create another project
thats exactly that, he actively contributed, yet is put aside although being an important contributer
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murpi
Ra...rank ones? I.. I can't rank one with high ping :(
Actually you are probably the only admin that the racers like, and maybe snail because he used to be insane 😄
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Neben
thats exactly that, he actively contributed, yet is put aside although being an important contributer
To contribute, we need to talk. This is all we ask for. It's seriously not as big an issue as whoever you heard it from
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Learath2
Actually you are probably the only admin that the racers like, and maybe snail because he used to be insane 😄
I used to love you before you weirdly implied stuffs, which you shouldn't even
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murpi
Ra...rank ones? I.. I can't rank one with high ping :(
Also we need to keep playing together. I need more points so I can also be allowed an opinion on this game I spent half of my life on to contribute to
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Speaking of THE hammer change. It’s human nature not to realize the true value of something, unless they lose it. I've talked to so many people about it, they can't even imagine playing without it
18:43
Same goes for the freezebar, it's such a good upgrade compared to the stars.
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I actually like all the admins, and always defended them in front of Pipou and others. I'm very involved with how things are structured on this game, this is why i wanted to enhance a discussion that almost instantly became a warfield, and finished by a period of an admin (edited)
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Neben
I actually like all the admins, and always defended them in front of Pipou and others. I'm very involved with how things are structured on this game, this is why i wanted to enhance a discussion that almost instantly became a warfield, and finished by a period of an admin (edited)
Can you please point out the "period"? Because I'm sure there is some misunderstanding. The only period I put was when explaining how things CURRENTLY work
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Learath2
Also we need to keep playing together. I need more points so I can also be allowed an opinion on this game I spent half of my life on to contribute to
Weeell, since you were so busy with studies, I kinda stopped asking you. feelsbadman
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murpi
Weeell, since you were so busy with studies, I kinda stopped asking you. feelsbadman
I'm done now Celebrate We can go back to having fun
owo 1
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Learath2
I've been completely clear in what I'm saying. Some of the latest changes are beyond the scope of duties of the testing team, period. I'm saying nothing more nothing less
well that is a confusing message, thats why
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Let me better clarify that specific message. As things currently stand, there is a certain group of tasks that are delegated to the testing team. Some of the changes they want are not part of any of the tasks given, so must be discussed further
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Neben
Maybe you need more admins. With more diversity of experience and players, mappers (edited)
Me is good variant troll
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murpi
Speaking of THE hammer change. It’s human nature not to realize the true value of something, unless they lose it. I've talked to so many people about it, they can't even imagine playing without it
Not contesting it, taking it as an example of a BIG change that has been done without enough opinions, clearly
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In contrast some of the other changes are within their sole discretion and don't need to be discussed with anyone else. The new testing structure, the new mapping rules. It's all within what the testing leader role entails. The testing leader is given extreme liberty in testing. They are free to run it however they like
18:51
He can test maps according to whatever criteria he thinks is appropriate, with as many or as little people as he likes in whatever order he likes
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@Learath2 Do you remember the PR count with "the" hammer change?
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If he told us he wanted to release all short maps under the already existing race category that's completely within his rights (even though we'd love to hear about such a drastic change in map length it is still completely up to him)
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Learath2
In contrast some of the other changes are within their sole discretion and don't need to be discussed with anyone else. The new testing structure, the new mapping rules. It's all within what the testing leader role entails. The testing leader is given extreme liberty in testing. They are free to run it however they like
And I think that their opinion as really good mappers and game designer, is important It's true its called testing, but it's also managing the whole mapping section, their opinion about categories is important
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Ah it's #1922 I think
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maybe just give by default the admin role to the testing leader
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Neben
And I think that their opinion as really good mappers and game designer, is important It's true its called testing, but it's also managing the whole mapping section, their opinion about categories is important
And we agree that their expertise in that is sooo important that they get to do testing however they like, no questions asked, do you ever see us stop a map release or force one?
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No thats why I'm saying you already entrust them in managing maps, which include categories
18:56
also there is a problem of connexion between testers and admins, putting the testing leader admin might be a fix
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Neben
No thats why I'm saying you already entrust them in managing maps, which include categories
That seems to be where we disagree. We don't believe that's part of what we define as "testing". It's a wider change
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Neben
also there is a problem of connexion between testers and admins, putting the testing leader admin might be a fix
The previous testing leader was an admin and it was indeed fairly frictionless. It might be a good idea to ensure all new testing leads will be admins aswell
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Learath2
The previous testing leader was an admin and it was indeed fairly frictionless. It might be a good idea to ensure all new testing leads will be admins aswell
I'll move on now. No hard feelings, thanks a lot for listening @murpi and you, this was I think an important topic
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https://heinrich5991.github.io/blog/blog/one-tick-unfreeze This seems to explain the change quite well
I saw the deepfly bind the other day:
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Neben
I'll move on now. No hard feelings, thanks a lot for listening @murpi and you, this was I think an important topic
Please pass on the message that we just have some concerns and would like to chat. It really doesn't have to be hostile, we all want the same thing, a healthy game and nice maps to play
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Learath2
The previous testing leader was an admin and it was indeed fairly frictionless. It might be a good idea to ensure all new testing leads will be admins aswell
Who was prev testing leader?
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murpi
https://heinrich5991.github.io/blog/blog/one-tick-unfreeze This seems to explain the change quite well
This change mostly went through when we figured out that it's possible to do this with vanilla teeworlds just as long as you have hammer bound to mwheel
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Learath2
This change mostly went through when we figured out that it's possible to do this with vanilla teeworlds just as long as you have hammer bound to mwheel
Yeah, I see.
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At that point without any way to prevent it without breaking tons of maps, the only solution was to make it just a feature everyone can use without weird hacks
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Learath2
Please pass on the message that we just have some concerns and would like to chat. It really doesn't have to be hostile, we all want the same thing, a healthy game and nice maps to play
Very good to know tbh, I used to think that and started to think otherwise, lets keep thinking like that
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MilkeeyCat
Who was prev testing leader?
The one and only jao, he who had the only troubleless testing spree
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Learath2
A week or so ago someone had a decent idea of making a post update poll/forum of sorts on discord, that might help a bit but it'll still be an extremely biased sample of people that probably already cared enough to participate in the RC testing
Might be a bit non-developer-friendly. It could be nice to get some more feedback on PRs before they are released. But to be honest I'm not completely conviced of the quality of the feedback. But definitely worth a try.
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marmare_314
Might be a bit non-developer-friendly. It could be nice to get some more feedback on PRs before they are released. But to be honest I'm not completely conviced of the quality of the feedback. But definitely worth a try.
Problem that I fail to get across to people every time this comes up is the fact that it's incredibly hard to get an unbiased sample of the community
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Learath2
The previous testing leader was an admin and it was indeed fairly frictionless. It might be a good idea to ensure all new testing leads will be admins aswell
What do admins actually do thonk
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marmare_314
What do admins actually do thonk
Just management of servers, management of moderators and final decisions on big changes
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Learath2
The previous testing leader was an admin and it was indeed fairly frictionless. It might be a good idea to ensure all new testing leads will be admins aswell
Alternatively, you could adopt an approach similar to our moderator staff, where there is no designated leader, and decisions are made through a democratic process. ;)
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Learath2
Problem that I fail to get across to people every time this comes up is the fact that it's incredibly hard to get an unbiased sample of the community
I think what we need are mandatory votes ingame before being able to join a server
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Day to day it's mostly server management, ddos sampling and some renames of players
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marmare_314
I think what we need are mandatory votes ingame before being able to join a server
19:09
Yes and No votes aren't really opinions but it's still better than nothing (edited)
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murpi
Alternatively, you could adopt an approach similar to our moderator staff, where there is no designated leader, and decisions are made through a democratic process. ;)
Problem is that very few people qualified to test on the level we want even exist. It's been the issue for years
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murpi
Speaking of THE hammer change. It’s human nature not to realize the true value of something, unless they lose it. I've talked to so many people about it, they can't even imagine playing without it
what hammer change
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oh that one was a good change
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The closest system we had was the Welf, RayB, jao coalition, which I kinda liked tbh but they had to go ruin
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cyberFighter
oh that one was a good change
Do you have 10k points?
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Learath2
Day to day it's mostly server management, ddos sampling and some renames of players
Doesnt seem like such a desirable role after all 😄
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no but i played before ddnet existed
19:11
so i still count
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Day to day having to fix things due to cosmic rays (edited)
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marmare_314
Doesnt seem like such a desirable role after all 😄
The mundane management part I kinda like. I hate this sort of confrontational "debate" whenever there is a change
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murpi
doesnt actually sound like a horrible idea. But if people only have 2 minutes to decide the kind of polls you can run seem fairly limited. How would you even decide if you want the hammer change in 2 minutes?
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marmare_314
doesnt actually sound like a horrible idea. But if people only have 2 minutes to decide the kind of polls you can run seem fairly limited. How would you even decide if you want the hammer change in 2 minutes?
Maybe a broadcast when we get close to big changes inviting people to join the discussion if they care
19:17
Like "In 1 week DDNet 17.3 will be shipping with big changes, join the discussion on Discord"
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BIG CHANGES
19:17
@Voxel
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It's impossible to summarize a change like the hammer change in a vote
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is that an example or is hammer actually getting changed again
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Funnily enough, one entire half of this community get almost no say on anything. China is as big as the entirety of all the other regions
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Learath2
Funnily enough, one entire half of this community get almost no say on anything. China is as big as the entirety of all the other regions
That's actually the goal of the issue. To get input from them.
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i mean arent most people who vote no old players
19:20
and like 99% of the chinese playerbase is newish
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Maybe we could reinvent the client news page, and get feedback from there instead.
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Learath2
Funnily enough, one entire half of this community get almost no say on anything. China is as big as the entirety of all the other regions
well, there's the same representation problem in federations like USA and in UN (edited)
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cyberFighter
i mean arent most people who vote no old players
This is why I was very skeptical of the equal voice take. Almost everyone thinks some voices are more important than others, it's usually whose that's disagreed on
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Learath2
Maybe a broadcast when we get close to big changes inviting people to join the discussion if they care
I think thats the best we can do, invite people to the discussion. But asking for opinions after merging sounds like a lot of pain
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murpi
Maybe we could reinvent the client news page, and get feedback from there instead.
I actually like this more. Though I think some people disable even that
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murpi
Maybe we could reinvent the client news page, and get feedback from there instead.
Or just a highlighted chat message even?
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Though I guess the kind of person who disables the news page also has opinions strong enough that they'll show up anyway 😄
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Learath2
I actually like this more. Though I think some people disable even that
Deactivate it? How? In my opinion, the news page seems to be quite hidden. 😅 You have to click twice to access the news page when you're already in the browser. First, on the top left corner (which takes you back to the main menu), and then once more on the not-so-easily noticeable news button in the bottom left.
19:25
People probably click it once on the first startup, but then never again. At least that's what im thinking
19:26
Ah wait, isn't there an option to disable the main menu entirely?
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murpi
Deactivate it? How? In my opinion, the news page seems to be quite hidden. 😅 You have to click twice to access the news page when you're already in the browser. First, on the top left corner (which takes you back to the main menu), and then once more on the not-so-easily noticeable news button in the bottom left.
I think there was a skip news setting, though maybe I'm thinking of skip main menu
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murpi
People probably click it once on the first startup, but then never again. At least that's what im thinking
it automatically shows up when there's a news
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That's bad. 😅
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murpi
People probably click it once on the first startup, but then never again. At least that's what im thinking
It's supposed to come up when there is news yeah
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but there's a setting to disable it thanks to people like me 😄
19:27
i remember asking something like that
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Anyway, yeah if you disable that you are probably already showing up to feature discussions you care about
19:28
The target demographic is polling people that are neutral or care but miss the discussion because github is foreign to them
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in my case yes, for other people, it's just unexpected to start the game on a news page rather than in the menu or browser
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big changes??
19:43
whatd i miss
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reddit gold
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big changus
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cyberFighter
so i still count
Apparently we don’t
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whats even happening in 17.3
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The editor now has three icons for switching between the different modes instead of having one button that would cycle through the modes. Closes #7313. !image

Checklist

  • [x] Tested the change ingame
  • [x] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
  • [ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
  • [ ] Written a unit test (especially base/) or added coverage t...
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what was the tv show which was showing tw?
21:09
tv or internet
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It will now automatically set the zoom to what you adjusted it to in settings. Previously you would have reconnect or run zoom, which is quite confusing for new players. https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/assets/141338449/f29b1cb0-23b9-47c8-bb4e-a853639c5f8d

Checklist

  • [x] Tested the change ingame
  • [x] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
  • [ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
  • [ ] Written a unit test (especially base/) or added cove...
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ChillerDragon
madlad deen hinted that he might merge #5949 tomorrow. If that actually happens I appreciate every who looks over the code and maybe even runs it before the merge.
whennn
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d4ec8cf Don't disable practice on death. - furo321 7034ca8 Merge pull request #7314 from furo321/keep-practice - def-
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GIGA GANGSTAR!!! (edited)
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8c95976 Reset zoom when adjusting default zoom in settings - furo321 4541944 Merge pull request #7319 from furo321/reset-zoom-on-change - def-
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Checklist

  • [x] Tested the change ingame
  • [ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
  • [ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
  • [ ] Written a unit test (especially base/) or added coverage to integration test
  • [ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
  • [ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
  • [ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSan or valgrind's memcheck](https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/#using-ad...
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oh i missed a convo
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Voxel
whats even happening in 17.3
i am also curious
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if u wanna change this game
23:20
learn C++
23:20
and push forward ur changes
23:21
thats how it is
❔ 1
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who u talking to
23:27
discord reply feature is pretty cool
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nobody
23:30
and everyone
23:30
deep
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are u talking to baby whiny mod guy
❔ 1
23:50
whats his fuck
23:50
neben
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