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DDraceNetwork
Development / developer
Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet
Between 2023-06-24 00:00:00Z and 2023-06-25 00:00:00Z
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nouaa
ajidk
somehow commenting this cleargameinfo was a solution to me
00:00
lol 🧠 🐘
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BillionRay
also i dont think its the average person you guys should worry about, its only a matter of time before someone with the right knowledge comes around and makes some advanced bot that can play tw better than any human
Hopefully the right kind of degenerate with the correct skillset never comes along. Because bot detection is definitely a losing battle. We are lucky it's only skiddies for now
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right, so my point is a script kiddie isnt going to make anything that will be a serious threat to ddnet with some casual help from this server, on the other hand a 'degenerate' with the right skillset will accomplish it regardless. Thus this whole crappy attitude to people who ask questions about the codebase for 'bots' is pointless
👍 1
00:15
anyway your server, your rules, i respect it
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It’s still a lot of work even detecting simple bots, it’s better for both the mods and us the less there are of them overall
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I feel like every kind of cheat that's useful for ddnet has already been made and released at some point in time. I can't think of any kind of cheat that would cause significantly more damage than past cheats have done.
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BillionRay
for a development channel you guys are sure hesitant to talk about development
not rly? lot of dev talk here, just not about botting
06:01
u just took the wrong path
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BillionRay
right, so my point is a script kiddie isnt going to make anything that will be a serious threat to ddnet with some casual help from this server, on the other hand a 'degenerate' with the right skillset will accomplish it regardless. Thus this whole crappy attitude to people who ask questions about the codebase for 'bots' is pointless
No. 10000% disagree. You waste my precious awesome short lifetime to develop something i will never use for good reasons. Other developers ask questions to make something actually useful for the community.
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when ddnet in this meme of a language https://github.com/TodePond/DreamBerd
perfect programming language. Contribute to TodePond/DreamBerd development by creating an account on GitHub.
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-06-24 06:28:24Z
Strongly disagree. I haven’t tried any bot client but I doubt you can just spin up some client and finish any ddnet map 1try without skill or effort. Which is something that could be done. Also if slats gores bot is as stable as it looks on YouTube and easy to use. If that were released to the public it could disrupt kog. Imagine every player giving it a try because it’s fun and finishing some insane kog map with it. How are moderators supposed to keep up with this. (@Tater)
I feel like every kind of cheat that's useful for ddnet has already been made and released at some point in time. I can't think of any kind of cheat that would cause significantly more damage than past cheats have done.
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I meant ddrace specificly. I think it's inherently more resistant to bots than gores, fng, or block
06:33
You can't make an ai or bot that figures out how to finish even a somewhat complex ddrace map, unless it's just replaying recorded inputs from someone else (edited)
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-06-24 06:47:49Z
That’s the thing. You can. Everything is possible (@Tater)
You can't make an ai or bot that figures out how to finish even a somewhat complex ddracr map, unless it's just replaying recorded inputs from someone else
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I think it's 100x harder than the starcraft ai
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its about the amount of effort
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imagine relying on machine learning to finish a map
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its surely a matter of time until even such bots are easy to make
06:50
so just accept the fact that machines are better than humans and have fun play without bots
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I would consider it a breakthrough in machine learning if someone could finish even 5% of ddrace maps without seeing them beforehand
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and then online multiplayer games would die out
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Tater
I would consider it a breakthrough in machine learning if someone could finish even 5% of ddrace maps without seeing them beforehand
u mean first try?
06:50
or any amount of tries?
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A reasonable amount
06:51
<5 hours
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i am not sure if u'd say 95% i'd probs say yes
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People can't even make an ai that solves all trackmania maps and that game is orders of magnitude less complex in terms of intelligent actions
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maps like brainfuck are defs brain fuck
06:52
xd
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Tater
People can't even make an ai that solves all trackmania maps and that game is orders of magnitude less complex in terms of intelligent actions
i dunno, trackmania has "normal" maps and these weird maps where u do saltos etc
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Even the weirdest trackmania maps I think are less dimensionally complex than most ddrace maps. The fact you need to aim is a huge increase in complexity
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yeah i dunno.. its mostly about patterns
06:55
i'd say at least ddmax maps have similar patterns
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It's not like the map tells you which direction your even supposed to go btw
06:55
Just path finding the correct path seems a monumental challenge
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and still humans do it somehow
06:58
Would u have thought there will be AIs better at human language than any human existing? (edited)
06:58
many maps are straight forwards. but there are definetely extremly hard maps even for a human (edited)
06:59
e.g. escape, brainfuck, where u need to go back in the map with new weapons etc.
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 07:05:35Z
But it is not unthinkable that AI could solve those tricky maps better and faster than humans
07:06
but i think it doesnt even need AI to create a disrupting bot
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AI cant think yet
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I think people are over estimating the current state of abstract reasoning in ai
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so the tricky maps are basically unsolveable yet
07:07
but still, many maps follow a certain pattern
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There's a lot of tests which are simple for untrained humans that ai cants even get over 20% https://github.com/fchollet/ARC
The Abstraction and Reasoning Corpus. Contribute to fchollet/ARC development by creating an account on GitHub.
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if u vote a random moderate map, it will probably feel to you as u done it before
07:07
and i guess for such maps AI will be good enough
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 07:08:31Z
i wonder if there every will be a AI to generate maps
07:08
so mappers become prompt engineers xd
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well simply answer question: do you think AI will at some point be as intelligent as a human?
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 07:09:19Z
does it have to be for mapping?
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for any map a human wants
07:09
yes
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 07:09:33Z
but yea im not super sure about it
07:10
i have like 0 understanding of how AI works so its hard to tell for me
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input, output
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 07:10:16Z
cant tell if we are close or not
07:10
if its doable or not
07:10
but im confident that it wont stay at human intelligence level for very long
07:11
and reach for humans uncomprehensible intellect quickly after reaching the human level
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In my opinion it's possible but only if you generate small segments
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if we have a AI that can reason.. even if its on a level of a 12 years old child the game is over
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My point is only that ddrace maps are sufficiently hard enough to ward off ai until it's at human level in many aspects
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bcs then u can have 7 billion 12 years old childs reasoning together
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You could easily say chatgpt is as intelligent as 99% of 12 year olds
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mhh
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I really think it is
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yeah i understand what u mean
07:13
but chatgpt has no will
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But that doesn't mean it can do things a 20 year old can (edited)
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a 12 years old child that is about to die, has to get creative maybe
07:14
chatgpt basically knows nothing about our real world physics
07:14
and it cant do math
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It's limited because it can't effectively learn, remember, or work with other ais so it just acts as 1 person (edited)
07:16
I don't think 20 billion 12 year olds assuming they can never learn or remember new information could make a super ai (edited)
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the ai talking with someone isnt learning either, its just processing the sentence and answering that, its not modifiying itself iirc
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yeah
07:17
its not a real interaction
07:17
static hardware is also inefficient in such things
07:17
our brain is a master piece in that regard
07:18
analog too
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yeah thats indeed another issue with computers
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analog may be better for ai
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4bits are simply shitty
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I think a computer 50x as powerful as a 4090 is enough to make human level ai. I think we just don't know how yet
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Tater
I think a computer 50x as powerful as a 4090 is enough to make human level ai. I think we just don't know how yet
a human brain is like 12 watts
07:20
so in terms of thermodynamics thats all it would take right? (edited)
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 07:20:42Z
xd
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to me gpt-4 was the most advanced human language generator even including humans when i read articles, book passages etc it never sounds as well expressed as gpt-4 it simply knows the perfect word in every setence it let it summerize some stuff, quite a few times and was quite impressed how well it compressed the information without loosing the core points 😄
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Jupstar ✪
to me gpt-4 was the most advanced human language generator even including humans when i read articles, book passages etc it never sounds as well expressed as gpt-4 it simply knows the perfect word in every setence it let it summerize some stuff, quite a few times and was quite impressed how well it compressed the information without loosing the core points 😄
you got access to it from europe? how?
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credit card
💰 2
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BillionRay
a human brain is like 12 watts
If you compare estimated floating point operation cost of simulating a neuron I think 50x 4090 is close enough
🧠 2
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but talk about it about rust or vulkan.. u directly see it knows nothing 😂
07:59
this crashes clangd
07:59
😃
07:59
ignore the fact that it's actually nonsense code
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ez
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Ewan
ignore the fact that it's actually nonsense code
What are u codin? Or is this just some isolated exampe for demonstration?
08:05
object & hierarchy boilerplates
08:05
ddnet unrelated
08:05
ryo would probably call it the devil's work
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:08:06Z
c++ moment
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Trying to understand line 61.. is the zero being passed to the lambda or whats the deal with it?
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zero is bullshit
08:09
that's why clangd crashes
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The std::forward doesnt belong there right?
08:12
Interesting little snippet, takes your mind on a journey
08:13
it doesn't belong there
08:13
templates are great
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Keep your head up brother @Ewan. Things will get better if you keep at it 🦔
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:19:19Z
wats with the hedghehog emoji xd
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it's his pfp
08:19
the hedgehog wisdom
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:22:43Z
branding i see
🦔 1
08:22
🐉
08:23
@fikmesån @imp Narcisstic good map thanks for building it
🤡 1
08:24
13:37 median finish time axaxax real haxor map
08:24
ah shit forgot my apache is down
08:24
F
08:30
NO
08:30
sry imp
08:30
i was trying to see if he was speaking doxygen
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chillerdragon: use engine X
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:31:29Z
wot
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nginx
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:31:33Z
a
08:31
xd
08:31
too lazy to learn it
08:31
i know apache
08:31
and it works well
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ez
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:32:44Z
cant really blame apache for me using a vps during dist upgrade
08:32
i run debian 12 packages with a debian 11 kernel
08:33
and apparently downgrading is not really supported by debian
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nginx is good
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:33:31Z
apache is good too isnt it?
08:33
gets the job done
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yeah
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:33:38Z
my jobs
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i use both
08:33
i prefer proxy syntax in apache config
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:34:04Z
i never really touched a nginx config
08:34
but looks cooler than the xml tbh
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:36:28Z
DAILY PAITON TRIVIA
08:36
def pack(self, we_are_a_client = True) -> bytes: payload: bytes = b'' msg: Union[CtrlMessage, NetMessage, ConnlessMessage] is_control: bool = False is_connless: bool = False for msg in self.messages: if msg.message_type == 'connless': is_connless = True msg = cast(ConnlessMessage, msg) payload += bytes(msg.message_id) payload += msg.pack() elif msg.message_type == 'control': is_control = True msg = cast(CtrlMessage, msg) payload += pack_int(msg.message_id) payload += msg.pack(we_are_a_client) else: # game or system message msg = cast(NetMessage, msg) msg_payload: bytes = pack_int( (msg.message_id<<1) | (int)(msg.system_message) ) msg_payload += msg.pack() if msg.header.size is None: msg.header.size = len(msg_payload) payload += msg.header.pack() payload += msg_payload if self.header.num_chunks is None: if is_control: self.header.num_chunks = 0 else: self.header.num_chunks = len(self.messages) if is_control: if self.header.flags.control is None: self.header.flags.control = True if is_connless: if self.header.flags.connless is None: self.header.flags.connless = True if self.header.flags.compression: payload = twnet_parser.huffman.compress(payload) return self.header.pack() + payload
08:36
sorri irc volks xd
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what is the question
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uff
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:37:44Z
how to make code less ugly
08:37
refactor challenge
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now that debian upgrade is out, all sid packages got updated
08:37
😬
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apt --upgradable moment
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almost 700 packages
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good that the update is almost finished after 2minutes
08:38
imagine waiting 30 minutes for an update
08:38
😬
08:41
chillerdragon: its very ezt
08:41
ez
08:41
dont use python
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:41:13Z
ok thank
08:41
ill just commit like this
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np, ur welcome
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 08:41:47Z
i somehow cant refactor code
08:41
i just poop on my keyboard and call it a day
08:44
ohno
08:44
edgaaaaaar
08:44
!
08:44
when python dev again?
08:44
i really wanted to avoid diving into huffman code
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Like the title said, Here's the images that I took: !image !image This happen to me when I'm using Linux Ubuntu 22.04, I downloaded it from Steam and also try downloading it from ddnet website ( Linux x86-64 package ) But the bug still cause.. Hope you can fix it. Thanks!
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chillerdragon
def pack(self, we_are_a_client = True) -> bytes: payload: bytes = b'' msg: Union[CtrlMessage, NetMessage, ConnlessMessage] is_control: bool = False is_connless: bool = False for msg in self.messages: if msg.message_type == 'connless': is_connless = True msg = cast(ConnlessMessage, msg) payload += bytes(msg.message_id) payload += msg.pack() elif msg.message_type == 'control': is_control = True msg = cast(CtrlMessage, msg) payload += pack_int(msg.message_id) payload += msg.pack(we_are_a_client) else: # game or system message msg = cast(NetMessage, msg) msg_payload: bytes = pack_int( (msg.message_id<<1) | (int)(msg.system_message) ) msg_payload += msg.pack() if msg.header.size is None: msg.header.size = len(msg_payload) payload += msg.header.pack() payload += msg_payload if self.header.num_chunks is None: if is_control: self.header.num_chunks = 0 else: self.header.num_chunks = len(self.messages) if is_control: if self.header.flags.control is None: self.header.flags.control = True if is_connless: if self.header.flags.connless is None: self.header.flags.connless = True if self.header.flags.compression: payload = twnet_parser.huffman.compress(payload) return self.header.pack() + payload
why not simplifying some part
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its so annoying that i cant right click links in embedds anymore in discord
09:19
why did they change it 😭
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Jupstar ✪
uff
upgrade was worth it. the new spectacle (basically better version of snipping tool on windows) is really cool 😄
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@Robyt3 when dark mode for dropdowns
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krixxx💀 (@BillionRay)
also i dont think its the average person you guys should worry about, its only a matter of time before someone with the right knowledge comes around and makes some advanced bot that can play tw better than any human
10:06
ik a ser
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Jupstar ✪
@Robyt3 when dark mode for dropdowns
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looks better than grey imo 😄
10:11
our UI is simply weird
10:11
i guess if we want to have "transparency" we'd need to go with blur
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how to judge a place is freeze or not
11:32
int CCollision::IsFreeze(int x, int y) const { int index = GetTile(x, y); return index == TILE_FREEZE; }
11:32
use entities?
11:32
oh
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i use this to judge
11:32
but it dont work
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What x and y positions are you using, for example?
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this is test in game
11:33
11:34
i tried /32 and the origin
11:34
both didnot work
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Robyt3
What x and y positions are you using, for example?
so which should i use
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don't divide by 32 before calling IsFreeze
11:36
it's already done inside of GetTile which is called in IsFreeze
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oh there goes the need for my dropdown edits too, epic 😃
11:38
still
11:38
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Robyt3
don't divide by 32 before calling IsFreeze
i am confuze with this
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first try it on a simple map
11:41
you are not handling freeze tiles in front and switch layers
11:41
so I assume the freeze tile in this map is not in the game layer
11:43
11:43
11:43
so
11:44
not the map issue
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Maybe those maps also have the freeze not in the game layer...
11:44
What are you trying to do?
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judge a block is freeze or not
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Any block? Or just where you currently are?
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anywhere i think
11:46
so i write a function
11:46
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Search for TILE_FREEZE in the code
11:46
You also need to consider tiles in the front layer and tiles in the switch layer
11:47
how can the first one work
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For the switch layer you also need to know which team the player is on
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Vinson
how can the first one work
I guess we only use solid and nohook in the game layer
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the index return 0 every time
11:52
yes
11:52
11:52
how can i judge if the block is freeze
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whats this for
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Vinson
the index return 0 every time
As I've said, you need to consider front and switch layers as well
12:00
i found it
12:00
it only return 1-4
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wtf why LOL
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i dont know
12:01
12:01
i am a dumb
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my original point still stands though, if you want to detect all freeze tiles
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@Vinson what u makin?
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@Vinson looking through your other messages seems you are a bit of a botter, we should work together perhaps 🦔
14:51
on purely educational endeavors ofcourse
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@BillionRay mention bots one more time and you're muted
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For how long?
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do not try to circumvent the rules
15:10
I don't want to play games
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damn, i thought it was like r/fuckcars
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are these bots in the room with us? (@heinrich5991)
@BillionRay mention bots one more time and you&#x27;re muted
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I'm talking about cheats in ddnet
15:25
pleases stop talking about those
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ChillerDragon BOT 2023-06-24 15:29:58Z
🤖
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@ChillerDragon still on narcissistic i see
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i am not going to be hired for moderator anytime soon
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the "you agreed with the majority" seems bogus
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jao's hairy kebab 2023-06-24 19:16:06Z
does ddnet allow a mapres to be used in both a quad and tiles layer
19:16
seems saving is prevented
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it should allow it
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jao's hairy kebab 2023-06-24 19:19:29Z
it s impossible
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i rephrase: the client allows it
19:19
xd
19:20
if the editor is buggy dunno
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jao's hairy kebab 2023-06-24 19:20:07Z
when the map is loaded it removes one of the layers
19:20
it is omitted from the binary map file
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are you using current version
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jao's hairy kebab 2023-06-24 19:22:16Z
latest stable
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jao's hairy kebab 2023-06-24 19:31:42Z
ok empty quad layers are removed when u save
19:31
theres no bug
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i finally beat notelebro \o/, now how to fake camera position of a demo? can i edit the demo files with a binary file editor?
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Learath2
You can try. Patch out the crc check and use an empty map with green bg, but then you'll need to chroma key out the green
and about that i wanted to ask, when do i not have to chroma key out the bg? is there transparent video? or should i layer every frame on eachother as png and then make a video out of it?
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Hm, I thought h264 supported alpha but it's an extension it seems, I'm not sure if you can do that, but that was my idea
22:54
You can also modify the client to export also an alpha only video for masking but honestly chroma-keying sounds much easier
23:37
discord app so slow for me on phone
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ws-client BOT 2023-06-24 23:50:24Z
<chiler> !ping
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chillerbot1 BOT 2023-06-24 23:50:24Z
pong
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ws-client BOT 2023-06-24 23:50:39Z
<chiler> my apache back!
Exported 293 message(s)