DDraceNetwork - developer

lmao, some people thought we made a inferior IME into ddnet and they are now asking me how to turn it off cuz they thought it wasn't smart compared to their system IME

And is that true?

02:53

I'd have thought it's exactly the same from the suggestions

what suggestions

oh candidates

03:13

It should be the same as their IME

03:13

We couldn't possibly built-in multi-language IMEs directly into ddnet

03:14

It's probably just the look that is throwing people off

Ok, then they will get used to it^^

that's what i thought

05:31

But some people just can't understand they are using their exact IME

05:31

They insist we made a dumber version of chinese input lol

Learath2

Is a score of 0 even a possibility, we use this score thing in such a bizarre way

it is, and before it didnt show in info, but i made it show

GitHub

Click to see attachment 🖼️

make sure u test this properly

06:15

i wont fix i t

06:16

point based has to work too

06:16

it looks good on a quick look

I'd also do that

you'd use arrow keys or forget them

Use arrow key

Oooo

Do you not do so when using Google or coding ? ^^

Jupstar ✪

Do you not do so when using Google or coding ? ^^

I don't need to select candidates on my own ime

06:47

But if i do i just use numbers

Hi fred

do we have a config to turn off candidate window

06:50

People are asking for it

TsFreddie

Click to see attachment 🖼️

Wtf. Even the fps are overlapped

Idk what happened, just forwarding bug reports

It's ok. Just never seen such a bug ^^

Oh wait i think arrow key works

06:53

It's just not what they used to

Maybe we should collect all these issues

06:55

Is any of them at least happy to be able to play in Fullscreen

I dont think the arrow key can be adjusted

06:55

It's entirely handled by ime

Playing windowed under windows must suck hard ^^

Jupstar ✪

Is any of them at least happy to be able to play in Fullscreen

Probably but the happy ones don't talk

Xd

That's normal i think

Jupstar ✪

Wtf. Even the fps are overlapped

I think the background was no clear

06:59

Without anything drawn on it

Maybe driver bug?

07:03

Generally looks really buggy to me

why are there so many driver bug that we keep getting

07:15

Because it's cheaper to produce shitty drivers

~~Let's replace our renderer with Godot's graphic server~~

I wonder how much work around they have

07:17

And black listing

07:18

I randomly scanned throw some steam games a while ago. We are definitely not the only ones with these problems

07:18

Through

Is it generally better using latest drivers on windows?

Most of the time yes. But not always

TsFreddie

why are there so many driver bug that we keep getting

I still don't quite understand how we manage to hit so many while rendering a 2d game

Should i tell them to update drivers?

But windows often has drivers shortly after the hardware released xD

07:19

They often suck

TsFreddie

Should i tell them to update drivers?

Are there so many reports like this?

Learath2

I still don't quite understand how we manage to hit so many while rendering a 2d game

Sounds weird to me as well but I'm not the graphic guy so idk

Jupstar ✪

Are there so many reports like this?

Just one

TsFreddie

do we have a config to turn off candidate window

Doubt it. So what us the issue anyway? They don't like that we render the candidates?

I just told them to reset their custom background if they can

I guess u could ask if it happened after alt tab or smth

Learath2

Doubt it. So what us the issue anyway? They don't like that we render the candidates?

Some people don't like it

Hm, I wonder what we are missing. We can certainly add q config for it but maybe ask them what the issue is?

07:22

Or ask them to show their nornal ime completion in other applications.m

TsFreddie

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #6666 Input state stays on after closing in-game menu with esc.

IME window can still be activated after closing in-game menu while the cursor is in the name text field.

I can imagine there being some extra information about the candidate in the window maybe but that's about it

We are missing nothing

07:23

They want their ime "skins" back

07:24

For the windowed users

Learath2

I still don't quite understand how we manage to hit so many while rendering a 2d game

I don't feel like it's many. It's just that every person having trouble reports it. If all ppl without problem would say smth u'd get a feeling for it.. most annoying is if discord overlay or similar destroys the game for no reason ^^

TsFreddie

We are missing nothing

From 0 to 100 how sure are you?

20

Users are rarely completely wrong when reporting regressions in usability

We can add ime state where it shows which language you are currently typing (edited)

07:25

But lots of third party ime misreport that

Learath2

Users are rarely completely wrong when reporting regressions in usability

It's a feature paradigm shift

07:26

Some people just want their waifu back

Jupstar ✪

I don't feel like it's many. It's just that every person having trouble reports it. If all ppl without problem would say smth u'd get a feeling for it.. most annoying is if discord overlay or similar destroys the game for no reason ^^

There is ofc bias there but still. Even the variety of bugs we manage to hit is impressive. I'd think we were using only the tiniest part of the driver which probably gets tested a lot in QA

07:28

It's not like we hit some insane codepath while using a vk extension that is only standardized by one vendor

Learath2

There is ofc bias there but still. Even the variety of bugs we manage to hit is impressive. I'd think we were using only the tiniest part of the driver which probably gets tested a lot in QA

Yep. I'm also impressed. Especially about stuff like hibernate or alt tab, which often cause trouble

TsFreddie

Some people just want their waifu back

Okay. Now I understand. The config is of utmost importance, this is indeed a regression

1

Learath2

Okay. Now I understand. The config is of utmost importance, this is indeed a regression

but we can't bring the window back with unmodified SDL

07:30

we have to patch SDL more to get it togglable

Huuh? What needs to change in sdl?

we shut-off sdl's input method handling before to stop the game window from capturing the input method state and goes into headless ime mode (edited)

07:32

that was just a hack to let windows do it's normal IME things

07:32

we can bring back the hack and make it togglable some how

07:34

but I'm pretty sure half of the users are experiencing flashing screen during IME inputs before. the current solution works for most people and just make it look ugly for 5% of the people who has a older dual GPUs and plays in windowed mode

07:34

the older hack only works if they have an older style dual GPUs setup on laptops

TsFreddie

we shut-off sdl's input method handling before to stop the game window from capturing the input method state and goes into headless ime mode (edited)

Hm, my knowledge of the IME mess has grown hazy but I thought IMEs didn't even attempt to render if sdl text input wasn't active

it was active always

07:36

with the hack

TsFreddie

the older hack only works if they have an older style dual GPUs setup on laptops

Wouldn't it work for everyone playing windowed or borderless? I thought the dual gpu thing was only for fullscreen to not flash

because sdl didn't tell windows to stop listening to text input

TsFreddie

it was active always

And how did we stop it from triggering on, say movement keys?

nothing

07:37

user turns off their IME

And they liked that workflow better confusion

i think they just think it is ugly

07:37

i'm 95% sure

07:37

on this one

Ok does winapi provide a GetCandidateWindowWaifu_Ex?

i would've gone that route in teeworlds 0.7 if i could

Or we can commission Voxel to draw us a ddnet waifu to put on our candidate window

Xd

non-weeb would be furious

I can also draw waifus now

1

i mean we could make the candidate window skinable

It's easy to config gate

but is that what we REALLY need?

07:40

I'd happily take on the skin config development if we really need that

Idk, I would also be furious if you took away my waifu and cute rabbit thing

at least a horizontal mode would be nice, since windows does not report that, we could just make it a skinning feature

If possible please poll around a bit, make sure the issue is indeed only a looks issue. Then we can focus in on a fix to make the 5% happy-ish-er

are we sure we know they know what they want tho

I mean they should have an idea why they don't like it, no? People who genuinely only hate the looks will usually just say so

they say they don't like the look and want their own ime window back

07:44

the four people complaining are pretty clear about that

07:45

some do they they forgot how to type with a different looking candidate window

Okay so wait, don't we now toggle the sdl input mode properly? Why isn't their IME triggering? How are we blocking that?

TsFreddie

Click to see attachment 🖼️

this was one of them, but i think the feature parity is there. they're just not familiar with the interafce

Learath2

Okay so wait, don't we now toggle the sdl input mode properly? Why isn't their IME triggering? How are we blocking that?

sdl tell windows to use headless ime mode

Is that hardcoded in SDL?

i think so

07:47

let me pull out sdl code

Wait is it SDL providing us the candidates?

yes

07:47

well no

Ah cute, this wasn't a thing back when I last checked

but we are getting the window message through SDL

07:47

iirc

07:47

it's been a while

I can't imagine a lot of games draw their own IME, maybe there is a way to make sdl not do that?

there was a candidate window thing in SDL that is just empty. but i think we are getting WM_MSG or something using SDL's event

Learath2

I can't imagine a lot of games draw their own IME, maybe there is a way to make sdl not do that?

a lot of games don't care about IME

07:49

the ones that care (i.e. source engine) draws their own

07:49

unity does not do anything with candidate, fullscreen = no candidates

07:50

I'm pretty sure I've done the research when I was working on it years ago. kek

Eh. Just take a quick look, see if you can either override sdl asking for headless mode (maybe by a call to winapi on our side) or better tell sdl not to do that. If neither looks feasible I guess people will have to live without their waifu for a sec

i'm doing that

07:51

at work

07:51

with my boss looking at me

1

Maybe could be worth asking the players that complain that if a horizontal mode would help

TsFreddie

at work

This is capital theft. Please stop it

I think sdl recently changed it so candidates are send

07:53

That's why we updated sdl

07:53

I should try out kde ime again. But as always in Linux. I can use it in Fullscreen without problems

07:54

So it's not needed there xd

I bet they don't support linux properly anyway

SDL was mainly build with Linux in mind

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/a5332f0b1177406610c819636850525549186d60/src/engine/client/input.cpp#LL789C28-L789C30

ddnet/input.cpp at a5332f0b1177406610c819636850525549186d60 · ddnet...

DDraceNetwork, a free cooperative platformer game. Contribute to ddnet/ddnet development by creating an account on GitHub.

It's sponsored by valve xd

we are grabbing windows event

Yeah but none of the linux imes expose their candidates ever

Learath2

I bet they don't support linux properly anyway

i think linux IMEs are just a bunch of different user space programs doing hacks

TsFreddie

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/a5332f0b1177406610c819636850525549186d60/src/engine/client/input.cpp#LL789C28-L789C30

Mh ok, sucks

TsFreddie

i think linux IMEs are just a bunch of different user space programs doing hacks

True

there's no way we could know what the IME is doing

Yeah so sdl basically just added that headless mode thing and allowed wm events to passthrough?

I always used the smiley ime popup window xd

Learath2

Yeah so sdl basically just added that headless mode thing and allowed wm events to passthrough?

they didn't add it, it was there since SDL2

07:57

we removed it in our custom SDL before

07:57

they did also tell windows when to stop activating text input / ime so that's good. but we did also removed that before

That is not how I remember that piece of code at all, but if we are being honest I spent more time on the macOS part of that code anyway so maybe I just missed it

07:59

Ok so we only need the new sdl for passthrough wm events?

macOS can draw candidate window on top of fullscreen application tho

Learath2

Ok so we only need the new sdl for passthrough wm events?

i actually don't know what we're needed for the new SDL. robyt3 knows more about that. it was always working in teeworlds, so I didn't know if they are using a newer SDL

08:01

I think candidate was working fine for teeworlds 0.7 in MacOS. MacOS only needs a drawing position which we are providing through SDL, other than the StartInput and StopInput thing (edited)

08:01

sorry IRC

1

macOS had a massive issue with sdl not allowing access to the underlying fake textinput container they create to trigger the candidate window

<Jupstar> SDL version-specific issues 2.26.5, 2.24.2, 2.0.22: IME candidates work. But there are minor bugs when moving the composition cursor. 2.0.18, 2.0.20: IME candidates work. 2.0.16 (our current version): IME candidates cannot be determined with Windows API. Windows tries to draw the composition window like before, so this does not work in fullscreen mode. 2.0.8 (upstream 0.7): IME candidates work. But this SDL

08:02

version is too old for us.

08:02

<Jupstar> from #6530

08:02

<Jupstar> chillerdragon: ^ fix bot

bad bot

The textediting events you got refered to nonsense offsets for the small PressAndHoldIME

I guess the question is what 2.0.16 was doing

08:04

Though I wonder if robyt was referring to our patched version of 2.0.16

<Jupstar> i mean whats the problem, lets just use the current SDL version

08:05

<Jupstar> what would it help to downgrade again

2 concerns 1) weren't some people complaining of input lag? 2) we took away peoples waifus

1

<Jupstar> 1.) is bcs of mouseold

08:06

<Jupstar> we should simply remove it