DDraceNetwork - mapping

DDraceNetwork

DDraceNetwork / mapping

Here you can talk about mapping, ask mapping related questions or request new ratings for released maps

Between 2023-04-27 00:00:00Z and 2023-04-28 00:00:00Z

I got criticized about the same point with my map cryptic and all the testers who asked how to do parts, or for a demo of the map I gave it to them(including pipou). And my map was specifically a puzzle map which has even more reason to hide the actual way…

Its the typical butthurt People who have friends that are waiting to get maps released this repeats situation just happens

06:18

People with friends that can test maps always get called out and this never ends

06:18

Pipou is an expierienced mapper and I bet the map is amazing

06:23

Ok i just read the map thread and im 100% right

even ddrock is having less drama on map releasing

kek

Pipou

But you are right, just reminded me why I never posted any of my maps on public testing

post by different name and in the end of test change name to pipou

Steinchen

even ddrock is having less drama on map releasing

i hate ddrock , even when i didn't had any released maps , i knew they was bad . it's like ddnet but with out good testers as @Pipou

Pipou

The 1st was hard at the time, same for the second, now they are quite easy. I always wanted the 3rd one to stand out, be longer and harder (it used to have kill edges which I fully removed) and I like it as a trilogy

I can totally understand your POV on this matter but I don’t think your interest in this should be valued higher than the one of the community

Pipou

I'm aware of the different ways, even the craziest ones. It's more interesting for me to see how you'd do it

Well, community doesn’t and when testing with taktak I was able to show him at least one way he didn’t know

@Freezy the point of locking the channel was not to censor opinions about the map, it was to stop off-topic discussion. I can unlock it if you guys have something to say about the map itself

@Ravie thank you for clarifying, I think I said everything I wanted to say

For me People like pipou that proofed themselfs to make great maps should get special treatment because they worked for it

I'm not a mapper but I'd like to share my thoughts while reading all the drama you guys are providing. The first thing that comes to mind is that every mapper (wether veteran or new mapper) should be treated equally during map testing. What happened today is focused around maps being released too quickly. There should be some sort of rule that forces the tester to go through the map that has been sitting in the channel for the longest without an update. As an example, we can take a look at lazearound_3. I've mentioned to Pipou about the map, I remember that he said he spoke with the mapper, and about the map having lots of problem.. but those are not mentioned in the channel, and the channel is still in "map testing" (should be in "waiting for mapper"). I never tried the map, so I don't know about all those problems.

10:01

This leads to the second point, "map problems". Of course testers all have their taste and like, so not every tester will have the same opinion about a map. I've read the drama about the puzzle maps not being released, some bugs that should not be the core of the map..and so on. But really..either the game fixes those huge bugs or mappers/players will make use of the bugs into map concepts..and everyday gameplay. It's just inevitable. I think it is not acceptable if "the bug" will make the map "too short" or "not fun" (the recently released n9 map skip with 0.1s time, just doesn't make sense), but it's ok if "the bug" is used to complete a part, if it's reliable enough. But as I said, I am not a mapper myself and I'll leave the decisions to those who have more experience. Since not everyone share the same opinion, I'd rather ask to the community if something is good or not, and once u get enough votes, u can make the decision. (or deen, idk, but everything can be discussed still xd) I've read through some map testing channels and relative issues about skips....and design corner. Is that really the focus when testing a map? Isn't it all about the gameplay? And yes, each person may have different perception about the gameplay too..but that's where the discussion and the community comes in and gives their opinion about the topic. The game has already tons of released maps, I don't think we're in a rush to release maps..taking some time for discussion and giving more importance to actual map testing should be the priority.

10:02

TLDR; 1- first come first serve on map testing 2- more discussion and community involvement I appreciate all the works done by testers, but it just looks like there's some hate among the testers and the fact that people can have different opinions kills the testing team and it's..well, not working as a team.

The first thing that comes to mind is that every mapper (wether veteran or new mapper) should be treated equally during map testing.

10:02

i disagree

10:02

confidence in a person skill exists for reasons

10:03

and if u can spend less time testing due to confidence in that mapper, all for it, less resources needed

10:03

also the real world works like this, you trust experts and people close by, the same thing happens in testing

10:04

and i think map testing should be more focused on delivering quality gameplay to users rather than pleasing mappers (edited)

10:05

so if releasing maps from a good mapper is faster and more efficient, im also all for it

10:05

but well im not a tester soo xD

10:05

it would be a different picture if we lacked mappers

10:05

i dont think thats the case right now

treating everyone equally could help notice problems that only exist for unknown mappers

10:12

otherwise the well-known mappers do not perceive that those problems are indeed real and worthy of fixing

how so? my unquality here means spending less time testing maps from well known mappers due to the cofidence given to them

10:12

and i guess new mappers need more time testing

10:13

ah

10:13

i misread xd

I was wondering what exactly I should elaborate on

xd my bad

Keep in mind it's not a paid job, so testers test because they like the game and want to contribute to the community (+ most of them are experienced either mappers or players).

yeah

people behave way too much like ddnet is a company with paid employees and players are clients

11:37

this is not the case

11:37

in a perfect world indeed it should be "first come first serve" with a map testing queue and every map having the same attention from testers

11:39

in the real world this simply is not possible and we're not gonna force testers (whom are voluntarily giving up their free time to help contributing for the community and actually allow all of the players to have fun) to test in a specific order.. that would just make testing phase even longer and less active than it already is

11:40

like ryo and ama said, when a veteran mapper posts a map it should definitely still be tested, but it will obviously go faster because there should be way less issues than a less experienced mapper would create

gigachad

and also unexperienced mappers tend to rush their maps and post as soon as the skeleton is built

11:41

so yes testring phase will take much longer

they also think their map is the best

11:41

source: me

why should mappers like pulsar and pipou who like testing a LOT privately and only showing it when its almost 100% ready be punished for that

Just throwing some ideas/suggestions about testing in general (some ideas are dumb but just brainstorming): 1. Would it help if there was more transparency about who tested which map and how many people tested a map? Perhaps it can be logged somehow? 2. What about having a minimum time period rule, before a map is allowed to be released, so that people may have enough time to test if they would like? 3. It may be incredibly useful if some of the more experienced testers document how they go about testing a map, their workflow, and things they look out for etc., preferably in a video form (maybe a walkthrough example testing a specific map). Also having a checklist of things to review. This could help encourage new testers who feel they aren't adequate enough and help improve testing quality/consistency in general? 4. Mentioned previously, perhaps a requirement that mappers have to test at least two other maps before they're allowed to submit a map? It could help increase testers while also improving the quality of map submissions since the mapper went through the testing process twice on other maps. 5. In Trackmania2020 (a racing game), they have public map review servers which host a specific map for 3 minutes for players to test it, after which the players can rate 1-5 stars based on the quality of the map, and then the next map loads. Something like that isn't really transferable to ddnet map testing, but maybe some related ideas may be useful? Having some public feedback mechanism in-game, in addition to the dedicated testers?

1. Make good map . 2. Test other maps , tell them whats wrong before testers test it . (You test other guy map , he tests yours ) 3. Fix your mistakes that other mappers players told you to . 4. Wait tester . (Tester will not spend as much time as he needs to , more time to test )

im sorry if the testing thing feels unfair for some people, it definitely is not perfect and I think it never will be.. as I said ddnet is not a company and testers are not paid employees.

we can't enforce ultra strict guidelines for testers or they will simply not test anymore
seniority in mapping is a thing and should be taken into account
while we try to reduce it as much as possible and avoid the "releasing my friend's map", there will be bias based off the fact that ddnet is still a small community and this is simply not avoidable

@UnlucksMcGee 5th . Well testers tests what they like most of time . (I think like that ) Personaly i like testing dummy , solo or new mehanic map . I have tested team 0 maps but i don't like them after playing them don't want to test anymore .

thekid36

I'm not a mapper but I'd like to share my thoughts while reading all the drama you guys are providing. The first thing that comes to mind is that every mapper (wether veteran or new mapper) should be treated equally during map testing. What happened today is focused around maps being released too quickly. There should be some sort of rule that forces the tester to go through the map that has been sitting in the channel for the longest without an update. As an example, we can take a look at lazearound_3. I've mentioned to Pipou about the map, I remember that he said he spoke with the mapper, and about the map having lots of problem.. but those are not mentioned in the channel, and the channel is still in "map testing" (should be in "waiting for mapper"). I never tried the map, so I don't know about all those problems.

Funny way learning that about la3, this got never communicated to me lol

snail

im sorry if the testing thing feels unfair for some people, it definitely is not perfect and I think it never will be.. as I said ddnet is not a company and testers are not paid employees.

we can't enforce ultra strict guidelines for testers or they will simply not test anymore
seniority in mapping is a thing and should be taken into account
while we try to reduce it as much as possible and avoid the "releasing my friend's map", there will be bias based off the fact that ddnet is still a small community and this is simply not avoidable

If you can't provide testing at an adequate level then it seems quite imbalanced to always expect professional perfectionism from mappers in every aspect, partially in laughable details like corners or useless shit like that

11:52

If you're not a company then don't try to act like one I ln amateurish ways

Supdef

If you can't provide testing at an adequate level then it seems quite imbalanced to always expect professional perfectionism from mappers in every aspect, partially in laughable details like corners or useless shit like that

we don't expect that?

11:52

thats exactly why the testing phase is here for

11:52

and thats also what im saying, when a mapper comes with a more polished map his testing phase will obviously be shorter

Well I got no problem with that

as for the mapping rules that another topic on which the testing team has full autonomy

11:55

I mean you realize that half of the maps in testing require a LOT of attention & time from tester even with these mapping rules? would you even imagine if it wasnt for these mapping rules, the ton of added work testers would have?

snail

we don't expect that?

You kinda do especially if one is not part your entourage. Like most required fixes are like these shields are against my sense of aesthetics or high level stuff like that

I'd say the aesthetics requirements are part of being uniformous with higher quality standard than what we had years ago, since maps are getting overall more and more polished I'm not responsible for it and I don't know to which extend it's being pushed but to me it makes sense

11:57

just look at ddmax maps and latest releases, it just feels way more polished now (edited)

11:57

its a ton of tiny details that add up

11:57

(or even early ddnet releases)

That why not tester can test map and help fixing it to be more polished . (Making map perfect is hard ). I have two maps coming i think they will be accepted very fast :/ because of how good parts are . (I am not rushing to post this maps , when i will satisfyed then i will post maps ) I have map that i don't post because when i play it from start i realize that map is broken everywhere ,frosterating basic in some places and so on . Don't want to spend others time to test it thats why i don't post ir @Knuski saw this map long time ago before he was tester (if i corrextly remember)

santatrollet

1

if ur a new player and u join on springlobe then hop onto a skynet I definitely think u will see skynet as clunky just becasue of the looks

I don't blame you, and I'm not against high map polishing per se. It just seems to be a double standard to me

Supdef

I don't blame you, and I'm not against high map polishing per se. It just seems to be a double standard to me

New era of ddnet

?

Supdef

If you can't provide testing at an adequate level then it seems quite imbalanced to always expect professional perfectionism from mappers in every aspect, partially in laughable details like corners or useless shit like that

wot

12:06

well we expect respect from everyone at least

I like new maps designs , yes it takes time to make corners but how it looks good . Imagine new maps would look worser then ddmax or oldschool . @Im 'corneum making all maps so different in design so insane and so always inspiring to look at them .

not professionalism

texnonik

I like new maps designs , yes it takes time to make corners but how it looks good . Imagine new maps would look worser then ddmax or oldschool . @Im 'corneum making all maps so different in design so insane and so always inspiring to look at them .

ur doin tricks on it

What do you mean ?

snail

and also unexperienced mappers tend to rush their maps and post as soon as the skeleton is built

justatest

louis

well we expect respect from everyone at least

I did not want to disrespect the work put in by testers like pipou and other testers. I wanted to criticize the organization behind the testing or the testing setup which is as extremely amateurish you can't really deny that

12:20

Individual testers themselves are generally good at what they are doing

Supdef

I did not want to disrespect the work put in by testers like pipou and other testers. I wanted to criticize the organization behind the testing or the testing setup which is as extremely amateurish you can't really deny that

yeah valid

12:23

but with the numbers we have now it'd be extremely hard to do anything organized

Anyone want to fix https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/6489 ? In Just Pseudo Fly there are entities on the front layer too close to the edge, which causes warnings to be shown in the server console when loading the map:

Something is VERY wrong with the Front layer near (-1, 473).
Something is VERY wrong with the Front layer near (-1, 475).
Something is VERY wrong with the Front layer near (-1, 477).

The entities don't look to be inside the playable part of the map, so they can probably just be removed.

Just Pseudo Fly gives error in server console · Issue #6489 · ddnet...

After downloading Just Pseudo Fly from https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-maps/blob/master/types/brutal/maps/Just%20Pseudo%20Fly.map and voting that map on a LAN server, you get this error in the serve...

Why is that an issue now?

@Robyt3 do you happen to know why it is a problem to have those tiles near to the edge?

Patiga

@Robyt3 do you happen to know why it is a problem to have those tiles near to the edge?

The entities at this location also read the entities around them (with the offset -2 to +2 in x and y direction). The access with x offset -2 goes outside the map layer. Don't know why this error message was added. We could also remove it if we don't care about it.

Image attachment

Robyt3

The entities at this location also read the entities around them (with the offset -2 to +2 in x and y direction). The access with x offset -2 goes outside the map layer. Don't know why this error message was added. We could also remove it if we don't care about it.

ah, that makes sense. I had this error a couple of times and didn't track down what the issue is, thanks :)

Seems like the error message has existed since basically forever https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/commit/af36c647850f31d6768a9f15c477b0af1a2b302b

only process tiles that are used in entities.png · ddnet/ddnet@af36...

I'll expand map if it really makes things better

I think if you move or expand the layer left then it could change physics

Ok then how does one fix this as those parts are as far as they need to be to make the part work

15:01

maybe I can wrap it around from another direction

Exported 92 message(s)