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DDraceNetwork
Development / developer
Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet
Between 2023-02-05 00:00:00Z and 2023-02-06 00:00:00Z
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Bruv it only takes like 2-3 weeks to get used to antiping then you're better forever, stop silly idea of adding extra delay lol
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it's not silly
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Cipy29
Bruv it only takes like 2-3 weeks to get used to antiping then you're better forever, stop silly idea of adding extra delay lol
i use this and i feel diff when hammerwall with 48 and 8 ping. its not same.
02:29
and it is not work if tee on other side unfrezzed.
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Iza
it's not silly
its silly
03:16
it only takes like 2 weeks to get used to
03:17
i remember antiping having some sort of 'minimum ping' cutoff, but they removed it
03:18
also game just looks smoother during drag parts etc when simulating 0 ping , there's no time delay when hooking, it's instantaneous and feels fast
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louis
it only takes like 2 weeks to get used to
I’ll have to completely rewire my monkey brain for that
03:27
I guess I’ll try
03:28
What can i lose
03:28
Except for lots and lots of fails in the first few weeks
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i remember when jawsh first switched he couldnt finish tsunami, now he is a huge gores pro
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So i will also transition to a QR code player? justatest
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521d191 M DaoYu Night, A Distance - ddnet-maps
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Since I don't have all of you as friends on discord and I can't find some of you on GitHub... I just start the discussion here, where also not mentioned people can form an opinion. @deen @Avolicious @ReiTW @heinrich5991 @ChillerDragon @fokkonaut Sorry for the mass ping 😦
05:35
good night 🙂
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mass ping spam troll
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mass ping spam :troll:
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Ya, swapping to antiping was very worth it, imo. Took me awhile to get used to it, swapped about a year ago now I think
09:02
The fact that it makes catching tees as simple as hooking them directly, is one of the better reasons to swap over
09:03
Never have to play that little guessing game again, unless it's a part that requires movement from the tee as you hook them 😅
09:05
13 years of not using antiping, if I can do it, anyone can. Just accept that you're going to play worse for a bit, you should end up better than you were (edited)
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Stop trying to convince everyone to use Antiping, thanks
🤡 3
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-02-05 09:07:50Z
Antiping propaganda
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I used to hate antiping too kek
09:08
I was fucking dumb
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Daniel
Since I don't have all of you as friends on discord and I can't find some of you on GitHub... I just start the discussion here, where also not mentioned people can form an opinion. @deen @Avolicious @ReiTW @heinrich5991 @ChillerDragon @fokkonaut Sorry for the mass ping 😦
missspelled my name xd
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-02-05 09:09:50Z
„All Four disciplines“ :triggered: (@Daniel)
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Skeith
I was fucking dumb
Point is I dont hate it, but you hate it now to play without.
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I can play without still
09:11
It's just worse, far less consistent. Why would I choose to do that to myself. I can freely play on any server I want
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-02-05 09:11:39Z
Let’s fix bad servers and ddos for the sake of tournaments @Learath2 how come you never thought of tournaments to fix ddos?
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-02-05 09:21:18Z
So you need mappers for multiple new ddrace,gores,fng and block maps.Devs to build a website with accounts and stats tracking and it has a api to publish game scoresCustom server modifications to publish these scores (and thus also to track the games)ddos protection (lol)And randomly expect a bunch of people to cooperate. I can see some of the random selection of people you pinged being not interested.That’s quite big (@Daniel)
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chillerdragon
So you need mappers for multiple new ddrace,gores,fng and block maps.Devs to build a website with accounts and stats tracking and it has a api to publish game scoresCustom server modifications to publish these scores (and thus also to track the games)ddos protection (lol)And randomly expect a bunch of people to cooperate. I can see some of the random selection of people you pinged being not interested.That’s quite big (@Daniel)
Mappers doing maps all they long.. like every year this would be 7 maps for ddrace and gores.. The website thing is that what I want to build. It just tracks during the tournement like all other tournement right now.. no one talked about accounts. Yea ddos(lol) I know the struggle of none. 😄
  • 7 new maps per year for big event
  • it's just a simple website where you can register and other can see the current state of the tournement and provides API to fill the lists with information.
  • yea the idea to bring the gamemmodes together and show some blocker that gore's exists.
  • the only thing is some help with hosting or just some mental support.
The whole thing can done by just 1 person because everything is already done except of the website but this project would not work without people.
(edited)
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chillerdragon
So you need mappers for multiple new ddrace,gores,fng and block maps.Devs to build a website with accounts and stats tracking and it has a api to publish game scoresCustom server modifications to publish these scores (and thus also to track the games)ddos protection (lol)And randomly expect a bunch of people to cooperate. I can see some of the random selection of people you pinged being not interested.That’s quite big (@Daniel)
But thanks for your opinion:)
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Daniel
Mappers doing maps all they long.. like every year this would be 7 maps for ddrace and gores.. The website thing is that what I want to build. It just tracks during the tournement like all other tournement right now.. no one talked about accounts. Yea ddos(lol) I know the struggle of none. 😄
  • 7 new maps per year for big event
  • it's just a simple website where you can register and other can see the current state of the tournement and provides API to fill the lists with information.
  • yea the idea to bring the gamemmodes together and show some blocker that gore's exists.
  • the only thing is some help with hosting or just some mental support.
The whole thing can done by just 1 person because everything is already done except of the website but this project would not work without people.
(edited)
do everything yourself gigachad
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chillerdragon BOT 2023-02-05 13:47:18Z
Okay maybe no accounts with password but some kind of user tracking for teams and leaderboard
13:48
But yea I could host stuff if you want. Got no fancy ddos protection tho
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@Jupstar ✪ i got my new keyboard
13:55
i like the feeling
13:55
but i gotta get used to it
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with speed mx?
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yeah
13:55
its epic but i know what u mean
13:55
its weird first time u use it
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i also mean the layout
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oh ok 😄
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xd i have the other imprintend into memory muscle
13:56
this one is a bit different
13:58
the keyboard itself
13:58
is beautiful
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are there ways to make ddnets network traffic footprint less? The internet speed was halved for me. and now this game is unplayable. anti ping makes it just worse (my ping is "normal"). (edited)
14:23
Something like not subscribing to garbage information about people outside your team or something (for example)
14:24
(World of Tanks runs smoothly for reference)
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default
are there ways to make ddnets network traffic footprint less? The internet speed was halved for me. and now this game is unplayable. anti ping makes it just worse (my ping is "normal"). (edited)
what is your new internet speed?
14:26
do you have cable internet now?
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My PC supports both. But I use cable.
14:28
should be around 6MB/s download, upload is garbage (edited)
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default
My PC supports both. But I use cable.
i dont mean a LAN cable
14:29
i mean cable, instead of DSL or fiber
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no clue
14:29
but sounds like it doesnt it
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anyway with ctrl + shift + d u see the network footprint, but your internet should be good enough
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yea but I lag nonstop
14:30
it really is unplayable
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but your upload is really trash
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so I can't do anything and its the upload that causes lagspikes nonstop?
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default
so I can't do anything and its the upload that causes lagspikes nonstop?
no i dont think so
14:37
but if you have cable internet. the upload is defs a problem
14:38
cable internet by design is a problem
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I assume DSL is cable
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yeah
14:45
but the upload is completely different to what u posted before
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yea but what I posted before is what I have on my PC
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i dunno maybe this is a temporary problem for you/vodaphone have u tried to restart your router and computer? xD
14:46
fixes everything
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i could try ookla speedtest, but that should give similar results (edited)
14:46
i restarted my PC a couple of times already
14:46
tried to install hackintosh on my highend PC
14:46
to dualboot into
14:47
but after I did my research over an installation issue, I found out that MacOS doesn't support 3090 and won't support it
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what why macos?
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looks fancy
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anyway, you seem to have a fritzbox
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default
looks fancy
lets face it: macos is complete bullshit and just another useless OS that doesnt solve any issue but creates many
14:49
no OS in this world is so bad
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thats the linux user talking out of you
14:49
i love macos
14:49
just not interested to waste 2k on a macpro
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bro even windows is not so bad
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you want me to do what it tells me and slide it to the left?
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Jupstar ✪
bro even windows is not so bad
feels like it slows my computer down
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default
you want me to do what it tells me and slide it to the left?
you could at least try it
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default
feels like it slows my computer down
pf in no way macos has as good GPU drivers as windows has
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yea that's why I wasn't able to install it duh
14:51
it doesn't support my GPU
14:51
too stronk
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macos is designed to work for what apple wants it to work for
14:51
it has so many limitations and bad design flaws
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so intel and in the future only their M chips (edited)
14:52
i have got intel
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Jupstar ✪
it has so many limitations and bad design flaws
you mean that bad design flaw that malware basically has got no chance, privacy and other shit?
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yeah closed source and privacy
14:57
who doesnt trust american companies
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There is no malware for macOS simply because it’s not profitable
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fake news
14:58
Windows 75%, MacOS 15%, Linux 3% (edited)
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Why spend your time developing a malware for about 5% of computers?
14:59
15% is including iOS iirc btw
14:59
specifically MaxOS X
14:59
iOS is not included
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anyway, since u want to do gaming, steam hardware survey is moreinteresting
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Ok, even that is 1/5th of all computers
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Jupstar ✪
anyway, since u want to do gaming, steam hardware survey is moreinteresting
that's what I would use dualboot windows for
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Just spend your time developing a malware for windows and you’ll make more money
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gRPC in the ddnet codebase works good so far. I'd thought about using the CJobPool idea for the grpc calls
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Avolicious
gRPC in the ddnet codebase works good so far. I'd thought about using the CJobPool idea for the grpc calls
Any input on the CJobPool idea?
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default
that's what I would use dualboot windows for
MacOS big sur theme for kde plasma-----------------------Kvantum theme: https://www.pling.com/p/1398841/-----------------------Icon theme:...
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Avolicious
Any input on the CJobPool idea?
i mean cjobpool can do single async threaded tasks, if that is what you aim for then its good enough
15:05
but the tasks are blocking
15:05
so if the theads are in use and smth is IO bound they are in use
15:06
its not comparible to smth like futures
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Avolicious
Any input on the CJobPool idea?
This is what I did, but with the new multi pool approach I introduced in #5842
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Supersedes #5092, I am still not very sure about this structure either, but I think it's time someone else takes a look. Remaining concerns: Should errors in the http module just be fatal? I...
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that's not the same feeling
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that's not the same feeling
xd
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Learath2
This is what I did, but with the new multi pool approach I introduced in #5842
What problem would it solve?
15:07
Running multiple jobs in parallel?
15:07
or reduce context switch?
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I haven’t really dug into the grpc api, but I think the issue was that I needed special handling for completion
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default
that's not the same feeling
anyway about your original problem, is your internet connection new? or did it simply suddenly happen
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after our internet speed was reduced
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Learath2
I haven’t really dug into the grpc api, but I think the issue was that I needed special handling for completion
grpc offers different operation types, I'd not use the completionqueue, because it would add complexity
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after our internet speed was reduced
ah yeah, why was it reduced, did u change plan?
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was some special offer
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So I decided to go with normal blocking calls
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Avolicious
grpc offers different operation types, I'd not use the completionqueue, because it would add complexity
I used the completion queue yeah that was the name
15:09
With normal blocking calls I think the standard jobpool would work just fine
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was some special offer
i can only tell you my experience with old DSL cables that come from the street to the house: make sure they are as short as possible (from street to your router) make sure they are well isolated (they are very bad with signal problems) for me personally: disable ipv6 support in the router (telekom) but i'd say you have a different problem, maybe just call your ISP and ask why your upload sucks so hard
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Learath2
With normal blocking calls I think the standard jobpool would work just fine
Okay, we are using local on machine gRPC proxy/interceptor to cache some stuff like bans. So the jobs are being processed very fast & if needed they are delegated to the gRPC node behind the proxy
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Oh, you are much further than me it seems. I had a similar plan to make sure the calls ended in reasonable time
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Jupstar ✪
i can only tell you my experience with old DSL cables that come from the street to the house: make sure they are as short as possible (from street to your router) make sure they are well isolated (they are very bad with signal problems) for me personally: disable ipv6 support in the router (telekom) but i'd say you have a different problem, maybe just call your ISP and ask why your upload sucks so hard
yea sucks then, 246 metres away ipv6 was disabled already (edited)
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Learath2
Oh, you are much further than me it seems. I had a similar plan to make sure the calls ended in reasonable time
Its just a PoC. Dont wanna upgrade the servers & setting up the gRPC proxy for all servers, if not tested 😄
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default
yea sucks then, 246 metres away ipv6 was disabled already (edited)
mine is apparently even longer but as said, it must be a different problem maybe vodaphone cheating on you bcs they think u stupid/old whatever just call the ISP and it will magically fix
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@Jupstar ✪ fixed it
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default
@Jupstar ✪ fixed it
what was it
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not sure, a couple connection restarts (increasing stability to the max), disabling ip6 completely ( we weren't connected using it, but it still supported it), getting rid of unused devices (edited)
15:52
it still isn't what the dns box says I should have
15:52
but 2-3MB/s upload is an improvement. also no lagspikes anymore in ddnet. (edited)
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why disable ipv6? 😦
16:05
^^
16:05
probably because it fixed some issue
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it tunneled ipv4 for me
16:06
and ipv6 support isnt really existing for tw, except maybe now with 1 server xD
16:11
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IPv6 is good and such (no subnetting to create "enough" ip addresses) (edited)
16:12
but if everyone keeps using IPv4
16:12
it will never take over
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I‘m not an admin.
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ofc u are
16:17
u are admin of your PC
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default
it will never take over
I‘m not an admin, I can‘t say it in this specific case, but I think it‘s the trend of many things that they get deprecated. Until… well I actually am not in a possession of a personal computer right now haha believe it or not. Writing from my iphone (edited)
16:19
Until someone big makes it mandatory and drops support for the old technology
16:19
And others have to follow
16:22
By admins I mean people that earn money with it.
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fokkonaut
Stop trying to convince everyone to use Antiping, thanks
Too late they convinced me
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fokkonaut
missspelled my name xd
Fokkount
17:17
kek
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fakof
17:30
Did you rename yourself or did someone else do it?
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cauldron
Click to see attachment 🖼️
for many reasons, IPv6 headers are simpler and more efficient than IPv4 headers, leading to faster and more efficient routing of packets
17:33
they also have built-in support for mobile devices and mobility, allowing for seamless connectivity as devices move from one network to another
17:34
& it's more secure
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i wish everyone had ipv6
17:38
ipv4 are expensive rn
17:39
cuz not enough
17:39
ipv6 are free
17:39
and u get a /64
17:39
xd
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yeah
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Ryozuki
i wish everyone had ipv6
tell that to the isps that don't even know that fiber exists
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Iza
tell that to the isps that don't even know that fiber exists
my isp, movistar has fiber
17:41
but no ipv6
17:41
yet
17:41
xd
17:41
they stupid
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Ryozuki
ipv6 are free
it's free but organizations still need to pay for the hardware, software, and technical support necessary to deploy and use IPv6 xd
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nouaa
it's free but organizations still need to pay for the hardware, software, and technical support necessary to deploy and use IPv6 xd
hardware and software supports it since ages lol
17:42
the only thing remaining is the actual users, clients of isps, to get a ipv6 address and be able to use ipv6
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Iza
tell that to the isps that don't even know that fiber exists
top isp in georgia doesnt have fiber optiom
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Neldyk n final form 2023-02-05 19:48:59Z
ı need help
19:49
I downloaded the game a long time ago, I am facing such an error
19:49
Tried on a different steam account, same error.
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Neldyk n final form
ı need help
DM me
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ComebackPlay
i use this and i feel diff when hammerwall with 48 and 8 ping. its not same.
in antiping, there isn't adifference in that occasion. if there were, the entire reason for it to exist would just break apart. I would assume that you are just used to non-antiping makes it feel weird for you
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i wouldnt be so sure about it tbh if the ping calculation for antiping the one from scoreboard?
20:50
then there is probs a good chance that the interpolation is only tick accurate not ms accurate (edited)
20:55
@trml give us insights
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that's strange, yes, at least with dummy it should be the same (if both 8 and 48 ms are with antiping on)
21:29
the prediction doesnt calculate any ping but instead has two clocks, one for gametime or and one for predicted time, that are synchronized with the server independently (the first one using timing offset of snapshots and the second using timing offsets of input messages)
21:30
or, at least it doesnt use the concept of ping directly
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isn't there also a delay between main tee and dummy
21:32
its approximately = ping
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there isn't supposed to be any, if both cl_predict_dummy and antiping are enabled
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trml
the prediction doesnt calculate any ping but instead has two clocks, one for gametime or and one for predicted time, that are synchronized with the server independently (the first one using timing offset of snapshots and the second using timing offsets of input messages)
but arent these timing package per tick?
21:35
if they are part of the snapshots
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since when ddnet client have cl_predict_dummy?
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a 10ms difference during interpolation would already look different
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trml
there isn't supposed to be any, if both cl_predict_dummy and antiping are enabled
so it means i can finish justcopyfly on chinese servers?
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gerdoe
since when ddnet client have cl_predict_dummy?
oh, that one was actually supposed to be enabled by default!
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trml
oh, that one was actually supposed to be enabled by default!
i remember i tested it every year
21:37
2023 is first year i can finish justcopyfly on 80+ ping server
21:37
thanks you so much if its your work xd
21:39
thank*
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Jupstar ✪
but arent these timing package per tick?
kind of, but for the input timings the server additionally tells you the milliseconds offset, and for both timings there is a "SmoothTime" function that is supposed to smooth out jitter gradually when adjusting the prediction/game time
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does the server know the exact time when an input happened?
21:40
does it not delay it?
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gerdoe
thanks you so much if its your work xd
glad you liked it, thats code from some time ago:)
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why dont we use this information to show the real ping in the scoreboard?
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trml
glad you liked it, thats code from some time ago:)
the next stage is predicting main and dummy in team like its a local server for both
21:41
cuz you don't need to check collision and events for other players
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the server responds with the difference between when the input was received and the start of the tick the input was meant for (so basically how early / late the input was vs what the client thought), so it shouldnt affect the client if it is delayed by the server (as long as the server calculates the offset immediately when it arrives) (edited)
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alright
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Jupstar ✪
why dont we use this information to show the real ping in the scoreboard?
oh, when I think about it its actually use for show_pred (the one that shows ping next to the fps) (edited)
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but that also doesnt show the real ping
21:49
around 4ms off for me
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doesnt it? oh, it adds the prediction margin as well probably
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i set it to zero
21:52
ok, I guess 4 ms means its not completely accurate, because of how some things are calculated perhaps
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question is, what if it differs between two servers ^^
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is it a constant error on each server?
21:54
guess its something with those timing calculations that are off or not completely taken into account then:P
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tried on 45.141.57.22:8306 ger10 ping command shows 18ms ingame prediction shows 30
21:55
so in this case its quite far off
21:55
even on LAN it shows 2
21:55
my ping timing is 0.02ms
21:56
but i dunno, i really dunno how exactly the calculations work, but 10ms would be feelable
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yes. I remember there was something added to make ping calculations more accurate one time, not sure if ddnet has that now? also things like vsync or network jitter can show up as more ping (its kind of possible to see it if you zoom really in on the network graphs)
22:00
but 10 ms is a lot yes
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is there actual time synchronization between server and client? e.g. if server sends a snap, will the client reset the internal prediction time to that exact tick (if we assume no lags)
22:04
what i basically mean is lets say clietn and server has 0ms ping server does ticks at 0ms 20ms etc client does at 10ms 30ms etc. would they somehow get synced again?
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yes, but it's "smooth". so instead of resetting its clock offset immediately the client instead sets the new time offset as a target and interpolates between the old and new offset over time
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mh i see
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so yes, they will
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yeah i assumed so, but that indeed makes it strange
22:06
since 10ms is indeed quite a lot
22:06
but even 2ms on LAN confuses me actually
22:06
i'd have thought its 0 or 1 from rounding
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that code is not perfect though (especially for jitter) and could probably be improved for many cases. it's supposed to work well when you have stable ping though, but even with stable ping things like vsync or something happening a few ms off might cause some jitter
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i have almost no jitter 😄
22:09
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oh, yes:D, I mean like the ddnet code having jitter (but I suppose thats not too likely if your computer is also fast)
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trml
yes, but it's "smooth". so instead of resetting its clock offset immediately the client instead sets the new time offset as a target and interpolates between the old and new offset over time
is there any problem with "edgy" sync?
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ping -i 0.1
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trml
oh, yes:D, I mean like the ddnet code having jitter (but I suppose thats not too likely if your computer is also fast)
ah yeah 😄
22:10
but yeah the thing smoothes out after a while
22:10
can i make it less smooth? 😄
22:11
when i tab out and in, its dead for atleast 20 seconds
22:11
wait does the prediction margin reset every time i close the client?
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gerdoe
is there any problem with "edgy" sync?
it would make things suddenly jump a little bit forward/backward in time. so the smooth part instead makes time a bit faster or slow motion for a little bit to hide the fact that the corrections happened
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Jupstar ✪
wait does the prediction margin reset every time i close the client?
also the minimum is 1
22:12
and it resets to 10 every time
22:12
well that might explain all mistery
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oh, yes, I forgot about that
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trml
it would make things suddenly jump a little bit forward/backward in time. so the smooth part instead makes time a bit faster or slow motion for a little bit to hide the fact that the corrections happened
so you mean server and client can't sync one time and then work properly
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gerdoe
so you mean server and client can't sync one time and then work properly
not really, since latency can change over time or be slightly different from packet to packet
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xxi century made internet a global (stable) local net xd
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trml
not really, since latency can change over time or be slightly different from packet to packet
okey, got it
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trml
oh, yes, I forgot about that
does that mean i get 9ms better reflexes in fng if i make it 1?
22:15
anyway the config misses CFGFLAG_SAVE is that intended?
22:15
or a bug
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yes. my internet connection is horrible, so I use it to add 100-200 ping to smooth out jitter
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@ChillerDragon I commented on https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/3194. Can you also port this PR to ddnet after making the change?
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it should probably be CFGFLAG_SAVE, originally I didnt add it just in case someone just used if for debugging (for example with a higher value) and then accidentally forgot to reset it
22:20
also only some servers support it, so it will only work on fng servers that are based on newer ddnet-versions (not sure if there is any good way to check if a server has it besides setting a very high value and seeing if that adds latency)
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I see thanks for the details
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np, I also thought about perhaps looking more into some of these things at some point
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