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DDraceNetwork
Development / developer
Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet
Between 2023-01-30 00:00:00Z and 2023-01-31 00:00:00Z
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yago 2023-01-30 01:39:03Z
Does anyone know how to open tas on ddrace?
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default 2023-01-30 01:47:16Z
sus. why would you want to run Tool Assisted Speedrun software in combination with Teeworlds. monkaHmm (edited)
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yago 2023-01-30 02:00:56Z
speedrun in servers private
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 08:37:42Z
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Ryozuki
Click to see attachment 🖼️
deen 2023-01-30 10:06:45Z
aka the last good thinkpads: x61
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 10:07:20Z
poggers2
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 10:17:04Z
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def-
[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #6317 Proposed physics change: Handle tiles in order of touching
https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2335377/215449374-da54166e-1917-4199-b7ab-775bada16469.mp4 See the attached video by tep. from Discord. teleports and some other tiles are implemented in a stupid way. They are only checked once per tick, so every 20 ms. If you fly fast enough you can have been in the path of 2 different tele tiles within those 20 ms, then bad luck that the wrong one is chosen. I think we could fix this by making sure all tiles are checked in the order they ...
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Learath2 2023-01-30 12:08:14Z
@Robyt3 for #6293 I haven't really had the time to check but I thought passing a bitset would just entail passing the underlying unsigned. That's why I suggested passing by value. I think if we want to make it any power of 2 in the future, the references can be added in that patch.
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DDNet BOT 2023-01-30 12:08:15Z
https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/6293
rewrite int64_t to bitset for clients mask by 0xfaulty · Pull Reque...
Alternative version for PR #6292 with bitset used. I did the naming as I would like, but I can change it if there is a more suitable one, typedef is just for shortening, can be removed. Checklist ...
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deen
aka the last good thinkpads: x61
Learath2 2023-01-30 12:08:48Z
I'm fairly happy with my t440p 😄
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 12:08:52Z
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heinrich5991
[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request reopened: #1264 Fix (partially) skipping through teles and death tiles
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 12:22:22Z
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heinrich5991
[ddnet/ddnet] Issue closed: #6317 Proposed physics change: Handle tiles in order of touching
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default 2023-01-30 13:02:26Z
Regarding the account discussion in #general. And my concern to not be able to move progress from a name to an account. Do the ddnet servers store some identifiers like MAC Address? (edited)
13:02
MAC should be part of the networking from my understanding. But I doubt DDNet covers for that. Because then banning players shouldn't be a problem. Edit: Ah nevermind. Forgot my Cisco years. It's ports that handle traffic outgoing and incoming from the public IP. And network table. For the router to know where to redirect the traffic inside the network. So unless the DDNet client gathers the MAC-Address, you won't have that information. (edited)
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deen 2023-01-30 13:41:44Z
And we can't trust the DDNet client because it's open source and anyone can change it to report a fake mac address
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default 2023-01-30 13:43:44Z
Didn't think about it that way
13:49
And something like a MAC + MachineGUID (Windows) combination can't be used either because that wouldn't be cross platform.
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Patiga 2023-01-30 13:50:53Z
anything that the client sends can be faked
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default 2023-01-30 13:51:47Z
Yea but try to fake a combination of multiple identifiers + region change and what not
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deen 2023-01-30 13:52:20Z
super easy, just enter anything you want
13:52
we can't trust the client, period
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deen
super easy, just enter anything you want
default 2023-01-30 13:52:42Z
Yea but the argument was getting other people banned
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deen 2023-01-30 13:52:46Z
and we don't want any of the weird spyware that makes sure you don't modify the client
13:53
ok, didn't understand it that way. I thought it's about banning cheaters
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default 2023-01-30 13:53:25Z
You would have to know their location, ISP information, name, and multiple identifiers have to match.
13:53
Which would be a lot of failed attempts to get someone like you banned
13:54
But I guess being able to ban griefers and rule breakers will never be a thing
13:55
Unless you get an actual anticheat. Which is too pricey and overkill for an open source project. Byfron looked promising. Daax loved it. (edited)
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 13:56:36Z
im against anti cheat software of any kind
13:56
they are predatory and spyware
13:56
and the kernel ones even more
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default 2023-01-30 13:56:58Z
>overkill
13:57
But they are effective
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 13:57:14Z
for now maybe
13:57
cheats and anticheats is always a constant race
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default 2023-01-30 13:57:50Z
Next best thing is streaming the game
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 13:58:11Z
oof
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noby 2023-01-30 13:58:12Z
plenty of ways to cheat even while streaming
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Ryozuki
cheats and anticheats is always a constant race
default 2023-01-30 13:58:25Z
Yea but Teeworlds isn't' infested by professional hackers
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noby
plenty of ways to cheat even while streaming
default 2023-01-30 13:58:54Z
No. Not streaming as in recording your gameplay. Streaning like Stadia. (edited)
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 13:58:59Z
professional hackers arent paid to "hack" a open source game no one cares about
13:59
and the real professionals often have morals
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noby 2023-01-30 13:59:07Z
oh i see
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 13:59:16Z
the ones without already work for bad actors, and there is no money to be made here
13:59
we only have a kid
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default 2023-01-30 14:00:09Z
Forget about it
14:00
That would be too complicated to do
14:00
You would have to allow only DDNet clients
14:00
And thats not what would ever happen
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 14:01:10Z
im now trying to learn genetic algorithms, always wanted to
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default
But they are effective
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:30:08Z
Are they really? Is there any game out there devoid of hacks?
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:30:52Z
I think devoid of obvious hacks might be enough
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heinrich5991
I think devoid of obvious hacks might be enough
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:31:50Z
Is there even that? Even kernel anticheats are running on untrusted hardware
14:32
At the end of the day I can attach a kernel debugger or load my own module before theirs
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:32:26Z
I have heard that there are fewer obvious hacks in valorant
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Learath2
At the end of the day I can attach a kernel debugger or load my own module before theirs
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:32:46Z
kernel debugger: probably not? load own module before theirs: works, but only for n=1
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Learath2
Are they really? Is there any game out there devoid of hacks?
default 2023-01-30 14:33:27Z
Yea they are punishing cheaters pretty well. Spoofers get detected. And they have to buy another game copy and probably another month of their cheat. Which can get pricy. EFT for example costs 70€ (EoD), and a cheat for that game costs you easily 200€. Most of them even keep selling subscriptions when they are detected. So foul play makes the life of a cheater hard as well. There is no public cheat provider that hasn't been hit. (edited)
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heinrich5991
kernel debugger: probably not? load own module before theirs: works, but only for n=1
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:33:40Z
Iirc windows allows you to attach all the way at the start. All that remains is to monkeypatch out the ways they would detect the attached debugger
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default
Yea they are punishing cheaters pretty well. Spoofers get detected. And they have to buy another game copy and probably another month of their cheat. Which can get pricy. EFT for example costs 70€ (EoD), and a cheat for that game costs you easily 200€. Most of them even keep selling subscriptions when they are detected. So foul play makes the life of a cheater hard as well. There is no public cheat provider that hasn't been hit. (edited)
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:33:57Z
that's entirely irrelevant to me if I want to play the game without cheaters
14:34
There is no public cheat provider that hasn't been hit.
source?
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default 2023-01-30 14:34:11Z
It should be relevant though
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default
Yea they are punishing cheaters pretty well. Spoofers get detected. And they have to buy another game copy and probably another month of their cheat. Which can get pricy. EFT for example costs 70€ (EoD), and a cheat for that game costs you easily 200€. Most of them even keep selling subscriptions when they are detected. So foul play makes the life of a cheater hard as well. There is no public cheat provider that hasn't been hit. (edited)
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:34:13Z
The actual deterrant there isn't that the anticheat is amazing. It' the price
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default 2023-01-30 14:34:20Z
because the script kiddies writing hacks for this game atm
14:34
won't be able to get around an actual anticheat
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noby 2023-01-30 14:34:29Z
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne9bmMX82iY
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Learath2
The actual deterrant there isn't that the anticheat is amazing. It' the price
default 2023-01-30 14:34:49Z
yes, and the fact that nothing stays undetected for ever
14:34
so cheating is expensive overall
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noby 2023-01-30 14:35:22Z
it will always be easier to create cheats than it will be to prevent and detect them, especialy in open source games. not that it isnt worth trying
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default
It should be relevant though
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:35:37Z
if I play their game, why is it relevant what they do with cheaters? the only relevant thing for me is that they're providing a cheat-free environment
14:35
sure, they prboably have to do something with cheaters
14:36
but that's not what should interest me, I think
14:36
they can do the harshest things possible, and if that's not providing a cheat-free environment, that's completely useless for me
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noby
it will always be easier to create cheats than it will be to prevent and detect them, especialy in open source games. not that it isnt worth trying
default 2023-01-30 14:36:27Z
yes. as long the cheater can control the environment the game and the anticheat gets run in. there will be cheats. (edited)
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default
because the script kiddies writing hacks for this game atm
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:36:28Z
Yeah I don't think we have anyone with the skills to beat a real commercial anticheat here in the community. But eitherway, it doesnt apply to an opensource game. We'd need to only allow the precompiled client
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default 2023-01-30 14:36:44Z
that's the problem
14:37
and your serversided bot detection doesn't pickup injected mouse movement (edited)
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Learath2
Yeah I don't think we have anyone with the skills to beat a real commercial anticheat here in the community. But eitherway, it doesnt apply to an opensource game. We'd need to only allow the precompiled client
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:37:15Z
(note that I don't think that this is a particularly bad problem)
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default
and your serversided bot detection doesn't pickup injected mouse movement (edited)
noby 2023-01-30 14:37:24Z
why wouldnt it?
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default 2023-01-30 14:37:44Z
ask heinrich
what 1
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noby 2023-01-30 14:37:52Z
the server cant know whether the mouse movement is coming from the client itself, or some sort of network/memory injection
14:38
it just sees the inputs
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heinrich5991
(note that I don't think that this is a particularly bad problem)
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:38:04Z
Not sure which you mean
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:38:30Z
that we're an open-source game
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noby
it just sees the inputs
default 2023-01-30 14:39:03Z
the clients out there write the rotation
14:39
i assume you do some delta checks
14:39
mouse input injection makes the rotation look legit to the server
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heinrich5991
that we're an open-source game
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:39:40Z
Most of the successful anticheats rely on some sort of binary verification along with active monitoring of the game memory. Both can vary with self compiled versions of the game
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default
mouse input injection makes the rotation look legit to the server
noby 2023-01-30 14:40:15Z
i dont think theres anything inherent about mouse input injection
14:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dok3HItgiVA ie. it can be done in client too
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Learath2
Most of the successful anticheats rely on some sort of binary verification along with active monitoring of the game memory. Both can vary with self compiled versions of the game
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:40:20Z
yep, but a blacklist would suffice, no?
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noby 2023-01-30 14:40:23Z
if this is what you mean
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noby
if this is what you mean
default 2023-01-30 14:40:48Z
yea and nearly every shot was detected as suspicious
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noby 2023-01-30 14:41:10Z
yes and why would it not have done the same thing if the inputs had came from an external source?
14:41
it would be the same inputs
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default 2023-01-30 14:41:22Z
in the case of a triggerbot
14:41
not so much. you detect it using reaction time. (edited)
14:41
if we talk about aimbot detection
14:41
it matters
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noby 2023-01-30 14:41:43Z
dont see how
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default 2023-01-30 14:41:52Z
it smooths the rotation
14:41
automatically
14:41
just like normal mouse movement
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noby 2023-01-30 14:42:06Z
yeah so does the client
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:42:08Z
why is it relevant that it's input via a mouse?
14:42
you can do that in software, too
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noby 2023-01-30 14:42:23Z
the client is aiming in this video
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heinrich5991
yep, but a blacklist would suffice, no?
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:42:23Z
But blacklists are pretty fragile
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heinrich5991
yep, but a blacklist would suffice, no?
default 2023-01-30 14:42:42Z
that's not how you should set up an anticheat
14:42
binary verrification, integrity checks
14:43
and an open connection from the anticheat to the ddnet servers
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Learath2 2023-01-30 14:44:04Z
VAC caught a lot of people back in the day by monitoring a single variable in the game memory. Old csgo cheats used to just enable the outlines for all players as if in spectator mode
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:44:04Z
in case of @default's ideas, being open source is a problem
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Learath2
VAC caught a lot of people back in the day by monitoring a single variable in the game memory. Old csgo cheats used to just enable the outlines for all players as if in spectator mode
default 2023-01-30 14:44:25Z
it's called glow
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Learath2 2023-01-30 14:44:36Z
That kind of monitoring is probably the most reliable. That boolean should never be true while in a normal competitive game
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Learath2
But blacklists are pretty fragile
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:44:36Z
hmm, sounds fine to me
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default 2023-01-30 14:44:43Z
and glow + radar is detected and decreases your trust factor if not done properly
14:45
same with not running VAC (Vac bypasses) while playing CS:GO
14:45
steam detects that the anticheat isn't running/doesn't work as intended
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deen
and we don't want any of the weird spyware that makes sure you don't modify the client
noby 2023-01-30 14:45:34Z
unfortunately i think all of these ideas fall foul of this^
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deen 2023-01-30 14:46:19Z
I think fortunately. I wouldn't want this kind of software on my system and so I don't want to impose it on DDNet players either
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deen
I think fortunately. I wouldn't want this kind of software on my system and so I don't want to impose it on DDNet players either
default 2023-01-30 14:46:40Z
you probably got the malware on your PC already
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:46:41Z
yes, it's not nice to punish well-behaving people
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noby 2023-01-30 14:46:45Z
i mean unfortunate because it limits the possibilities of anti cheat software. but is worth it in the end
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default
you probably got the malware on your PC already
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:46:48Z
no?
14:46
also how is that a good argument?
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default 2023-01-30 14:47:01Z
you want to tell me he doesn't play anything else?
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:47:06Z
you're already eating bad food, why stop eating this particular one
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default
you probably got the malware on your PC already
deen 2023-01-30 14:47:09Z
most definitely not. I haven't played other games for decades
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default 2023-01-30 14:47:16Z
fair point then
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:47:22Z
your point isn't fair though
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default 2023-01-30 14:47:24Z
because those are in most games
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:47:27Z
just because other bad things exist
14:47
doesn't mean we have to do a bad thing
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default 2023-01-30 14:47:47Z
don't start the discussion people started because of vanguard
14:47
when golden standard anticheats like that one existed for a decade already before it
14:48
and no one complained about those until one of them started to run when the system boots up (edited)
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:48:54Z
that's not true
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default 2023-01-30 14:48:58Z
it is true
14:49
that's exactly what happened
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:49:05Z
wanna bet 5 bucks? 🙂
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default 2023-01-30 14:49:11Z
on what
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deen 2023-01-30 14:49:12Z
I always complained about them
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:49:13Z
I can show you a wikipedia article
14:49
that people complained before vanguard
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default 2023-01-30 14:49:36Z
i didn't hear any complains
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:49:41Z
hence they didn't exist
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default 2023-01-30 14:49:53Z
ESEA was a topic once, because they shipped a crypto miner with it once
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:50:01Z
I believe you, in that you haven't heard about it
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zogtib 2023-01-30 14:50:02Z
Why not just make the game so that is it fun even if the other side is a bot? If others players have enough power to ruin your fun, does it really mater if it's a bot or not?
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:50:09Z
although apparently you did hear about something like that
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default 2023-01-30 14:50:24Z
yea but that wasnt the anticheat being bad
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zogtib
Why not just make the game so that is it fun even if the other side is a bot? If others players have enough power to ruin your fun, does it really mater if it's a bot or not?
deen 2023-01-30 14:50:26Z
that's difficult. people like getting good times, and bots can beat the best time easier (edited)
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zogtib
Why not just make the game so that is it fun even if the other side is a bot? If others players have enough power to ruin your fun, does it really mater if it's a bot or not?
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:50:31Z
it's mostly about speedrunners
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default 2023-01-30 14:50:31Z
that was an (now) ex-employee abusing his power as a developer (edited)
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zogtib
Why not just make the game so that is it fun even if the other side is a bot? If others players have enough power to ruin your fun, does it really mater if it's a bot or not?
noby 2023-01-30 14:50:32Z
bots in pvp generally always ruin the fun, especially instagib
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zogtib
Why not just make the game so that is it fun even if the other side is a bot? If others players have enough power to ruin your fun, does it really mater if it's a bot or not?
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:50:56Z
rest of the people are probably not that affected by bots already
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deen 2023-01-30 14:51:01Z
For a non-competitive mode like City bots don't matter I guess
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deen
For a non-competitive mode like City bots don't matter I guess
noby 2023-01-30 14:51:45Z
havent played it much but from how i understand it botting is even a problem there
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deen 2023-01-30 14:52:08Z
I thought City is the Metaverse of Teeworlds, people just walk around and chat?
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noby 2023-01-30 14:52:24Z
there is pvp elements so aimbot helps, and there is money farming elements so scripts to find farming spots and stay there would help too
14:52
yeah but some people take it seriously
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default 2023-01-30 14:53:32Z
i mean how your anti measurements work now is good enough
14:53
runescape doesn't do it differently
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Learath2 2023-01-30 14:53:47Z
Fwiw I'm not convinced about kernel level anticheats. It's just that serious enough people with the actual skills to beat them make hundreds of thousands per year at some company so they don't have to do this kind of stuff for a couple extra bucks
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default 2023-01-30 14:53:48Z
some server sided heuristics from botwatch and player reports
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Learath2 2023-01-30 14:54:21Z
As long as the underlying hardware can't be trusted there is no anticheat that is unbeatable
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Deleted User 2023-01-30 14:54:31Z
4 teams fng is there such a thing?
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Learath2
As long as the underlying hardware can't be trusted there is no anticheat that is unbeatable
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:54:42Z
I don't like you advocating for trusted computing
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Learath2
Fwiw I'm not convinced about kernel level anticheats. It's just that serious enough people with the actual skills to beat them make hundreds of thousands per year at some company so they don't have to do this kind of stuff for a couple extra bucks
Iza 2023-01-30 14:54:43Z
I’m for kernel level acs as long as it is from a trusted and reputable company
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Learath2
As long as the underlying hardware can't be trusted there is no anticheat that is unbeatable
default 2023-01-30 14:54:44Z
that's why stadia was scary (edited)
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Deleted User
4 teams fng is there such a thing?
noby 2023-01-30 14:54:51Z
5.181.50.244:8360 yes
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Learath2
As long as the underlying hardware can't be trusted there is no anticheat that is unbeatable
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:54:59Z
anyway, even then. output is analog, input is analog. it's a lost cause
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noby
5.181.50.244:8360 yes
Deleted User 2023-01-30 14:55:20Z
Through ddnet or teeworld need to come in?
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default
that's why stadia was scary (edited)
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 14:55:30Z
you can still have an aimbot for stadia
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default
i mean how your anti measurements work now is good enough
noby 2023-01-30 14:55:37Z
i do think i could do some more work on how the heuristics work but the approach seems like the best bet for tw
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heinrich5991
I don't like you advocating for trusted computing
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:55:57Z
Well if you want really unbeatable anticheat you want special purpose built computers, with tamper detection, filled to the brim with epoxy and same for peripherals 😄
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Deleted User
4 teams fng is there such a thing?
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 14:56:03Z
There is dfng now which has 64 teams 😮 which is playable from teeworlds and ddnet
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noby 2023-01-30 14:56:07Z
oh yeah dfng
😉 1
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noby
i do think i could do some more work on how the heuristics work but the approach seems like the best bet for tw
default 2023-01-30 14:56:07Z
maybe a bit more logging/recording could benefit the game as well for banning trolls/deleting cheated records. player provided proof in #reports isn't good enough to ban people if mods/admins/devs don't see it happening in action. (edited)
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noby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne9bmMX82iY
noby 2023-01-30 14:56:18Z
@Learath2 ^
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Learath2 2023-01-30 14:56:22Z
Even that isn't a 100% but that brings the cost of beating it so high that it's absolutely pointless
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default
maybe a bit more logging/recording could benefit the game as well for banning trolls/deleting cheated records. player provided proof in #reports isn't good enough to ban people if mods/admins/devs don't see it happening in action. (edited)
noby 2023-01-30 14:57:05Z
teehistorian is already doing a good job with that, but maybe some automatic analysis of these logs would be good
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noby
@Learath2 ^
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:57:19Z
You will be required to have 2 webcams pointing at you while playing, ezclap
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noby 2023-01-30 14:57:51Z
the bot mouse can be hidden under the desk while u move a fake mouse around that isnt plugged in
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Learath2
Well if you want really unbeatable anticheat you want special purpose built computers, with tamper detection, filled to the brim with epoxy and same for peripherals 😄
deen 2023-01-30 14:58:06Z
You're putting more thought into this than the people making voting machines 😄
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zogtib 2023-01-30 14:58:27Z
I'd mention here that we'll try to make dfng gameplay so botting would be worse than useless.
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Learath2
Well if you want really unbeatable anticheat you want special purpose built computers, with tamper detection, filled to the brim with epoxy and same for peripherals 😄
default 2023-01-30 14:58:45Z
won't help if the hardware is under your control
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deen
You're putting more thought into this than the people making voting machines 😄
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:58:45Z
I detest cheaters
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deen 2023-01-30 14:58:45Z
Countries will be taken over by unelected dictators, but at least DDNet server will know client is real 😄
happy 1
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default 2023-01-30 14:58:50Z
DRM protection is nothing different
14:58
on consoles
14:59
yet shock attacks, etc. grant a shell which get used to break that protection (edited)
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Learath2
That kind of monitoring is probably the most reliable. That boolean should never be true while in a normal competitive game
Ryozuki 2023-01-30 14:59:20Z
the most reliable woudl be the client not knowing enemy positions at all, which for the glow is needed, i guess they know for prediction thoi
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default
won't help if the hardware is under your control
Learath2 2023-01-30 14:59:22Z
Ofc it will, I'll also fill the case with epoxy and they will be powered by huge batteries, not removable
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default 2023-01-30 14:59:31Z
xd
14:59
that's not how real life works
14:59
right to repair
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default
fair point then
Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:00:18Z
he is also on linux btw
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:00:26Z
I'm obviously joking btw. Everyone that has read a thing or two about security of this kind knows that you have to have an attacker model
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default 2023-01-30 15:00:29Z
yea linux is a whole different rabbit hole
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:00:29Z
i know linux also have some virus yada yada, but most aimed at servers
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default 2023-01-30 15:00:40Z
people gpu passthrough to run dma cheats on it also most anticheats work worse on linux or don't even support it (edited)
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:00:40Z
Not every system can be built to resist attacks from the chinese state
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:00:59Z
@default btw do u work as some sort of security engineer
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noby 2023-01-30 15:01:13Z
99% of the attacker model is just random kids who google teeworlds bot client
15:01
and install the first malware that pops up
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:01:43Z
You know what would actually work though? Real ID verification with accounts
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default 2023-01-30 15:02:01Z
that's what they do in asia I believe
15:02
for league of legends definetly
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noby
99% of the attacker model is just random kids who google teeworlds bot client
Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:02:13Z
xd
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default 2023-01-30 15:02:13Z
they have their own client
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:02:15Z
You cheat, you are permabanned. Good luck forging a new id and commiting an actual crime bozo
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:02:28Z
@Learath2 the world is not that easy either
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default 2023-01-30 15:02:30Z
you not only get permabanned in that one game
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:02:30Z
how do you get back after that?
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default 2023-01-30 15:02:36Z
you usually get banned in all other games as well
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:02:38Z
@Learath2 ppl would circumvent that also
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:02:42Z
that sounds dystopian
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default 2023-01-30 15:02:53Z
but that's how it works on the other side of the earth
15:02
ever heard of social credit score?
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:03:05Z
@Learath2 just one extreme example, briving or a corrupted officer that issues ids
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zogtib 2023-01-30 15:03:06Z
Just make players eat a nanotechnology pill and upload their brain data and verify input.
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:03:08Z
doesn't really exist AFAIK
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default 2023-01-30 15:03:14Z
it does
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:03:18Z
source?
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heinrich5991
how do you get back after that?
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:03:36Z
You file an appeal ofc
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zogtib
Just make players eat a nanotechnology pill and upload their brain data and verify input.
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:03:40Z
first send them to @noby just to be sure
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heinrich5991
source?
default 2023-01-30 15:03:47Z
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RErdSr0iAcs
thelastpeanut
"And I think to myself, what a wonderful world."
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:03:55Z
no videos, please
15:03
somethign I can read
15:04
best would be a wikipedia article
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:04:08Z
iirc credit score does exist
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:04:11Z
if that really exists, it'll have a wikipedia article
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Ryozuki
@Learath2 just one extreme example, briving or a corrupted officer that issues ids
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:04:14Z
But how many people will risk an actual crime with dozens of years of prison entailed to play a teegame
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heinrich5991
if that really exists, it'll have a wikipedia article
default 2023-01-30 15:04:35Z
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#:~:text=The%20social%20credit%20system%20is%20an%20extension%20of%20the%20risk,financial%20infidelity%20and%20counterfeit%20goods.
Social Credit System
The Social Credit System (Chinese: 社会信用体系; pinyin: shèhuì xìnyòng tǐxì) is a national credit rating and blacklist being developed by the government of the People's Republic of China. The social credit initiative calls for the establishment of a record system so that businesses, individuals and government institutions can be tracked and evaluated...
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:04:44Z
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
Social Credit System
The Social Credit System (Chinese: 社会信用体系; pinyin: shèhuì xìnyòng tǐxì) is a national credit rating and blacklist being developed by the government of the People's Republic of China. The social credit initiative calls for the establishment of a record system so that businesses, individuals and government institutions can be tracked and evaluated...
15:04
fixed link
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default 2023-01-30 15:05:02Z
that video isn't bad either
15:05
shows humans protesting
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default
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#:~:text=The%20social%20credit%20system%20is%20an%20extension%20of%20the%20risk,financial%20infidelity%20and%20counterfeit%20goods.
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:05:26Z
The Social Credit System has generated a large amount of misreporting and misconceptions in the media due to translation errors, sensationalism, conflicting information and lack of comprehensive analysis.[4][18][19][20] Examples of these misconceptions include widespread misassumption that Chinese citizens are rewarded and punished based on a numerical score assigned by the system, that its decisions are taken by AI and that it constantly monitors Chinese citizens.[16][8][21][22][1]
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noby 2023-01-30 15:05:29Z
i think most people on tw would strongly reject any sort of system that links their ingame presence with their real id
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:05:30Z
from that article
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noby
i think most people on tw would strongly reject any sort of system that links their ingame presence with their real id
Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:05:55Z
not just ppl on tw, most would
15:06
in any game
15:06
or platform
15:06
xd
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noby 2023-01-30 15:06:05Z
true
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:06:10Z
I honestly do believe some form of real accountability is the only thing that can stop people from these kinds of moral degeneracy
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heinrich5991
from that article
default 2023-01-30 15:06:11Z
no one will know
15:06
asians are pretty damn good at winning this cyberwar
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Learath2
I honestly do believe some form of real accountability is the only thing that can stop people from these kinds of moral degeneracy
Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:06:21Z
its good and extremely bad
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default 2023-01-30 15:06:30Z
and not letting any information out
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Learath2
I honestly do believe some form of real accountability is the only thing that can stop people from these kinds of moral degeneracy
noby 2023-01-30 15:06:32Z
i would rather pay money for tw than have to show my ID to play
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default 2023-01-30 15:06:36Z
we are using discord at the very moment
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noby
i would rather pay money for tw than have to show my ID to play
ReiTW 2023-01-30 15:06:41Z
cheater
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default 2023-01-30 15:06:41Z
which is owned mostly by tencent which they wouldn't have invested in, if they wouldn't profit from our valueable data (edited)
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noby 2023-01-30 15:06:44Z
no u
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:06:56Z
it discourages for example whistleblowers
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:07:08Z
you're saying you're sure that the social credit system exists, but that information cannot appear on wikipedia about it because it's secret?
15:07
that sounds counterintuitive
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default 2023-01-30 15:07:18Z
pretty much
15:07
similiar to north korea
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:07:27Z
not rly bruv
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:07:29Z
you're better informed than wikipedia?
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ReiTW 2023-01-30 15:07:32Z
@noby here's a funny talk from the CEO of Battlestate games (Escape From Tarkov) mentioning that without cheaters = no money https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxSzfiyr7BI&list=WL&t=2349s (use translations) (edited)
🇷🇺 1
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noby
i would rather pay money for tw than have to show my ID to play
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:07:32Z
I'd actually be okay with that too, there has to be some material consequence
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:07:33Z
wikipedia would be the first to have it
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default 2023-01-30 15:07:34Z
not a lot of the people living there were able to escape and failed escapes will punish the whole family tree (edited)
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:07:35Z
because you study this field?
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:07:50Z
specially because its about china
15:08
if it was about united states i woudl believe you that wikipedia would have censorship
15:08
in which case i would refer to wikileaks
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heinrich5991
The Social Credit System has generated a large amount of misreporting and misconceptions in the media due to translation errors, sensationalism, conflicting information and lack of comprehensive analysis.[4][18][19][20] Examples of these misconceptions include widespread misassumption that Chinese citizens are rewarded and punished based on a numerical score assigned by the system, that its decisions are taken by AI and that it constantly monitors Chinese citizens.[16][8][21][22][1]
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:08:32Z
I believe there was some form of actual social credit system trialed in shanghai, nothing as insane as the conspiracies, but still. Let me see if I can find it
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:08:53Z
i saw something about a score in case u recycled correctly or not xd
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:09:27Z
I mean some cars in germany have a scoring system that shows how environmentally friendly you drive
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Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:09:33Z
To battle the problems of cheaters add somewhat good bot detection with moderators, cosmetics and accounts. If someone is banned they lose their cosmetics and have to buy them again. 🤑
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Ryozuki
i saw something about a score in case u recycled correctly or not xd
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:09:36Z
might be an instance of that
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default 2023-01-30 15:09:52Z
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s22tMR4YoN0
laowhy86
Is China's Social Credit System Real? - I Found Out
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:09:58Z
another video
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default 2023-01-30 15:09:59Z
if you travel there
15:10
they won't let you leave tourist routes
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:10:07Z
I can find videos about the earth being flat (edited)
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Learath2
I believe there was some form of actual social credit system trialed in shanghai, nothing as insane as the conspiracies, but still. Let me see if I can find it
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:10:09Z
Oh it's even on that page anyway, apparently they never made an actual scoring system out of it, just some lists of people
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Mr.Gh0s7
To battle the problems of cheaters add somewhat good bot detection with moderators, cosmetics and accounts. If someone is banned they lose their cosmetics and have to buy them again. 🤑
noby 2023-01-30 15:10:21Z
that works better in some mods than others though i think; often the people using bots on servers like this are just random players who dont join enough to make an account
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heinrich5991
I can find videos about the earth being flat (edited)
default 2023-01-30 15:10:22Z
but we both don't believe what they say
15:10
it's not as extreme as I might point it out
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:11:04Z
but that's why I don't count youtube as a relevant source
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default 2023-01-30 15:11:04Z
but it is a real thing, and makes sure they keep in line with the communist party
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noby
that works better in some mods than others though i think; often the people using bots on servers like this are just random players who dont join enough to make an account
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:11:17Z
force accounts banhammer
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:11:22Z
you keep saying that, I'd like to have a reliable source
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heinrich5991
but that's why I don't count youtube as a relevant source
default 2023-01-30 15:11:25Z
travel there yourself
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noby
i would rather pay money for tw than have to show my ID to play
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:11:39Z
How would you feel about a UID of sorts that would prove you are a single unique person but you don't have to show us your id at any time?
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default
travel there yourself
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:11:44Z
you don't think you'd come up with excuses why I didn't see it there?
15:11
"you didn't look closely enough"
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noby 2023-01-30 15:11:54Z
that would be good, but not sure how it would be implemented
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:12:07Z
would asking a good friend who was there count?
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Mr.Gh0s7
force accounts banhammer
noby 2023-01-30 15:12:20Z
then these random players would just make throwaway accounts
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noby
that would be good, but not sure how it would be implemented
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:12:33Z
Like a govt api for it. We give you a challange, you go on a govt website, you log in with your id, you enter the challange, get a response, give it to us
15:12
It'd be so cool
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Deleted User 2023-01-30 15:12:41Z
I wish there was variety in the game ddnet
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:12:45Z
Imagine no more people spamming
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noby 2023-01-30 15:12:52Z
that sounds sort of exploitable
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Mr.Gh0s7
To battle the problems of cheaters add somewhat good bot detection with moderators, cosmetics and accounts. If someone is banned they lose their cosmetics and have to buy them again. 🤑
Voxel 2023-01-30 15:13:00Z
yes because cosmetics definitely help with cheaters
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noby 2023-01-30 15:13:02Z
if someone manages to reverse it then they get the info of every player
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noby
then these random players would just make throwaway accounts
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:13:06Z
you will still get money from ppl who use cheats and buy cosmetics
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:13:14Z
the gov and apis are a thing that rarely works
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Voxel
yes because cosmetics definitely help with cheaters
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:13:19Z
they don't but atleast you get money
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:13:20Z
they are slow technological wise
15:13
and would underspend
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noby
if someone manages to reverse it then they get the info of every player
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:13:41Z
It's non reversible, just a message with a MAC
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:13:42Z
the api doesnt give u votes
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Mr.Gh0s7
they don't but atleast you get money
Voxel 2023-01-30 15:13:45Z
whar
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Voxel
whar
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:14:01Z
I'm just joking xD
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noby 2023-01-30 15:14:05Z
what is stopping people from just giving a fake identifier
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Ryozuki
the api doesnt give u votes
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:14:10Z
True, thus we must have a revolution to protect our games integrity
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:14:17Z
xd
15:14
i would first have the AGPL revolution
15:14
and abolish patents
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noby
what is stopping people from just giving a fake identifier
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:14:50Z
The MAC, you can't forge a govt response. So you must log in to their portal with your real id
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heinrich5991
would asking a good friend who was there count?
default 2023-01-30 15:14:58Z
do whatever you want. but you haven't even looked at the video containing real footage and sources of their system.
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noby 2023-01-30 15:15:35Z
but then the tw server would recieve an identifier that links u to ur id
15:16
it would be cool if there was a real way to link u to ur pc hardware, more anonymous but still generally does a good job of preventing evasion
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:16:25Z
We only get the message is_real_person: true, number_of_prev_acct: 0
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noby
it would be cool if there was a real way to link u to ur pc hardware, more anonymous but still generally does a good job of preventing evasion
default 2023-01-30 15:16:54Z
you can spoof your hardware identifiers
15:17
and I doubt ddnet would be able to do a better job than anticheats at identifying fake information (edited)
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noby 2023-01-30 15:17:07Z
thats why i said, if there was a real way
15:17
because there isnt
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:17:15Z
I'm sure I can engineer something like this to be actually cryptographically robust given enough time. If only there was political will 😭
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Learath2
We only get the message is_real_person: true, number_of_prev_acct: 0
noby 2023-01-30 15:17:29Z
hmm true, i wonder if it would be possible to brute force it though
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:18:09Z
During covid a lot of governments and researchers played around with cryptographically anonymous pandemic tracking. I'm sure I can repurpose sth like that
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default
do whatever you want. but you haven't even looked at the video containing real footage and sources of their system.
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:18:25Z
I'm typically not watching videos. I'd probably ask for the sources of that video next. are they provided?
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Deleted User
I wish there was variety in the game ddnet
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:19:01Z
There is ddrace/fng/dfng/zcatch/KoG/ and ctf(tho noone plays it)
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:19:14Z
Anyway, mine is just a dream. I know everyone enjoys some level of moral degeneracy so there would never be support for anything like this
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Learath2
Anyway, mine is just a dream. I know everyone enjoys some level of moral degeneracy so there would never be support for anything like this
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:19:36Z
it seems you can only request specific fields of the german ID card
15:19
but not a generic hash of all the fields or so
15:19
so we'd have to hash the stuff serverside and have the users trust us
15:19
sounds bad
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noby 2023-01-30 15:20:24Z
i think most people dont actively enjoy degeneracy they just enjoy privacy and convienence and free/open source games and other factors that make preventing degeneracy more difficult
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:20:47Z
It's actually impossible as it currently stands. Govts would need to be lobbied to set up something like this, a 0 knowledge proof of person existing and being unique api
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Mr.Gh0s7
There is ddrace/fng/dfng/zcatch/KoG/ and ctf(tho noone plays it)
Deleted User 2023-01-30 15:21:21Z
I'm not talking about modes, but about blocks
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Deleted User
I'm not talking about modes, but about blocks
Mr.Gh0s7 2023-01-30 15:22:07Z
you code your own. I did so with zogtib in dfng (the spikes and later goals)
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Learath2
It's actually impossible as it currently stands. Govts would need to be lobbied to set up something like this, a 0 knowledge proof of person existing and being unique api
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:22:09Z
I mean the german ID card is already pretty close, no?
15:22
not there yet, though
15:22
and not in our target demographic I guess
15:22
people under the age of 18 don't need to have one
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noby 2023-01-30 15:22:59Z
the NSA probably already knows everyone in america who has ever downloaded a cheat client just ask them for access to this data 🕵️
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:23:09Z
I have, please don't ban me
15:23
you probably did, too, @noby
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noby
i think most people dont actively enjoy degeneracy they just enjoy privacy and convienence and free/open source games and other factors that make preventing degeneracy more difficult
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:23:24Z
I also love privacy, which is why I wouldn't want to handle ids either
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noby 2023-01-30 15:23:29Z
guilty
15:23
it was just a test
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Learath2
I also love privacy, which is why I wouldn't want to handle ids either
default 2023-01-30 15:23:55Z
must be a rule breaker because scared to identify yourself sounds pretty much like traffic stops in the us (edited)
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default
must be a rule breaker because scared to identify yourself sounds pretty much like traffic stops in the us (edited)
noby 2023-01-30 15:24:10Z
people can do all kinds of harm thru knowing someones real info
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heinrich5991
I mean the german ID card is already pretty close, no?
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:24:19Z
But is there an api for it where we can get a token of sorts that we'd have no way of connecting back to the id and we don't even get to see the id in the first place?
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noby 2023-01-30 15:24:28Z
doxxing swatting intefering with their work or family etc
15:24
even if they are doing nothing wrong
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default 2023-01-30 15:24:41Z
yeyeye
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heinrich5991
but not a generic hash of all the fields or so
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:24:45Z
no, but it's close
15:25
I could imagine it being implemented, actually, if one wanted to go that way
15:25
businesses might also be interested in knowing that something is a person
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heinrich5991
it seems you can only request specific fields of the german ID card
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:26:05Z
Hm, how does this work? Do you mean the card can electronically provide these?
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:26:42Z
yes
15:27
I used it before, to log into the tax office system
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heinrich5991
I could imagine it being implemented, actually, if one wanted to go that way
default 2023-01-30 15:27:06Z
already is on the other side of the world
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heinrich5991
I used it before, to log into the tax office system
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:27:23Z
I guess the issue there is that letting us even query the card the users must trust that we only ask for the field we say we ask for
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:27:36Z
no, the app shows which data is transmitted
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:28:14Z
Oh, that's cool. The italian one just has a certificate on it which you can log into stuff with 😛
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Learath2
I guess the issue there is that letting us even query the card the users must trust that we only ask for the field we say we ask for
Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:28:42Z
isnt that solved with oauth scopes?
15:28
xd
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default
already is on the other side of the world
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:29:01Z
Croatia also has very similar online services, so does turkey. But the difference is that these businesses and governments have no need to avoid seeing the id number or the name and stuff
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 15:29:13Z
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6749#section-3.3
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:29:20Z
I literally only want to know that this is a person and they havent registered on my service before
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default 2023-01-30 15:29:27Z
yea
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Learath2
Croatia also has very similar online services, so does turkey. But the difference is that these businesses and governments have no need to avoid seeing the id number or the name and stuff
heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:30:18Z
eu has this principle of data minimization
15:30
you could argue (as a business) that you want this
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:31:04Z
I have new goal, become successful game developer so I can effectively lobby the eu government
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heinrich5991
I used it before, to log into the tax office system
deen 2023-01-30 15:31:30Z
I thought I was being clever when I set my German ID card not to support online support 😄 Now I'm always annoyed that I have to authenticate in person or via snail mail instead of with phone + id card, haha
15:31
not to support online auth*
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deen
I thought I was being clever when I set my German ID card not to support online support 😄 Now I'm always annoyed that I have to authenticate in person or via snail mail instead of with phone + id card, haha
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:31:53Z
Why did you do that?
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:32:04Z
I also did that the first time around
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deen 2023-01-30 15:32:10Z
Evil state watching me! How dare they!
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:32:15Z
perhaps being scared of ways they could screw this up
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deen 2023-01-30 15:32:21Z
(I don't remember exactly, so long ago)
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deen
Evil state watching me! How dare they!
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:32:32Z
But it's fine if you never plug it into anything, no? 😛
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deen 2023-01-30 15:32:47Z
it's NFC, so works over some (small) distance
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:33:35Z
was that disablable?
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Learath2 2023-01-30 15:33:36Z
Oh fancy. My turkish id card only has a standard smartcard chip thingy connection
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 15:33:54Z
you can use a smartphone to use the german ID card
15:33
it's pretty neat
15:34
I thought I'd have to buy hardware
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heinrich5991
was that disablable?
deen 2023-01-30 15:34:06Z
I think I got a form to sign and told them I won't so they disabled it
15:34
But maybe something changed inbetween
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heinrich5991
I thought I'd have to buy hardware
Learath2 2023-01-30 15:34:29Z
I have a smartcard reader exactly for this
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deen 2023-01-30 15:35:01Z
Like this: https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/ausweisapp2/handbuch/1.14/de/Windows/settings-pin-management-eid-deactivated.html
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deen
Like this: https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/ausweisapp2/handbuch/1.14/de/Windows/settings-pin-management-eid-deactivated.html
Avolicious 2023-01-30 16:48:00Z
eID has been settled by the european comission in the past 2 years. Now european member states are in charge to implement ^^
16:49
https://ec.europa.eu/education/knowledge-centre-interpretation/sites/default/files/kci_eulogin_0.pdf
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 17:32:23Z
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murpii
[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request opened: #239 17 new moderators + Corpse'
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 17:51:45Z
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edg-l
[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request closed: #239 17 new moderators + Corpse'
17:51
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edg-l
[ddnet-web:master] 2 new commits
1699438 17 new moderators - murpii 5d47934 Merge pull request #239 from murpii/patch-1 - edg-l
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 18:06:51Z
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murpii
[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request opened: #240 fix
18:07
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Jupeyy
[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request closed: #240 fix
18:07
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Jupeyy
[ddnet-web:master] 2 new commits
bec763e fix - murpii 92f3c40 Merge pull request #240 from murpii/patch-3 - Jupeyy
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 18:37:42Z
@heinrich5991 u should make a blog post about how u modified a running server to put a finish line
18:37
i totally missed that
18:37
Adrenaline 5, an absolutely insane and insanely faily map, was cut by Pipou into two parts with kill tiles being replaced with teleport tiles. Initially we had the map released in its entirety on December 10, but after realizing that it was too long, cut it into two parts and released the second part a week later. This required adding a finish tile using gdb on the already running servers, so that players could finish in the middle of the map already. Thanks to heinrich5991 for helping out with this.
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Ryozuki
@heinrich5991 u should make a blog post about how u modified a running server to put a finish line
Learath2 2023-01-30 20:11:47Z
I'm guessing gdb? You just need to pause execution inside somewhere with easy access to the tiles array
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 20:25:34Z
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trikiman
[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #6318 add new cmd
u already have /tp on practice what about /lasttp it will be tp on your last tp. it will very helpful.
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heinrich5991 2023-01-30 21:38:36Z
@Ryozuki https://blog.rust-lang.org/inside-rust/2023/01/30/cargo-sparse-protocol.html
Help test Cargo's new index protocol | Inside Rust Blog
Want to follow along with Rust development? Curious how you might get involved? Take a look!
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Ryozuki 2023-01-30 21:38:44Z
ohh finally
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Learath2
I'm guessing gdb? You just need to pause execution inside somewhere with easy access to the tiles array
deen 2023-01-30 23:11:21Z
Yes, that's exactly what we did. pause, overwrite value, continue
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GitHub BOT 2023-01-30 23:14:34Z
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def-
[ddnet-web:master] 2 new commits
db1fbc2 Frontpage - def- b83c5b7 Remove USA2 - def-
Exported 411 message(s)