DDraceNetwork - developer

ddnet-maps

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

f5e1f4b M Bounce - ddnet-maps

def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #6301 More minimal clang-tidy 15 run

Alternative to #6294

Checklist

[ ] Tested the change ingame
[ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
[ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
[ ] Written a unit test (especially base/) or added coverage to integration test
[ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
[ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
[ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSan or valgrind's memcheck](https://github.c...

def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #6294 clang-tidy 15 fix run

bors[bot]

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

1af3c22 More minimal clang-tidy 15 run - def- 30d67b9 Merge #6301 - bors[bot]

10:47

bors[bot]

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #6301 More minimal clang-tidy 15 run

def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #6302 Use OpenGL 3.3 on macOS by default

Otherwise falls back to OpenGL 1.5, since 3.0 is not supported

Checklist

[ ] Tested the change ingame
[ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
[ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
[ ] Written a unit test (especially base/) or added coverage to integration test
[ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
[ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
[ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSa...

@Jupstar ✪ FPS on M1 Max is about the same as on M1 Pro, I guess we are not GPU-bound

Yeah I think so. But sadly molten VK is buggy or bad. And the opengl wrapper is also not very fast.

11:25

Guess I'll have to wait until the Linux port gets around 80% perf of what's possible. If they even reach that point

bors[bot]

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

ec30fc7 Use OpenGL 3.3 on macOS by default - def- 54e56b0 Merge #6302 - bors[bot]

11:41

bors[bot]

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #6302 Use OpenGL 3.3 on macOS by default

heyo guys, what's up? :D I've been playing on an older client version for long now and I kind of don't want to update it rn because of the freeze bar and spec animation. I was wondering if that can't simply be made an optional setting since it probably doesn't match all of the player's vibe and style.

Have u at least tried it for 2 weeks

bors[bot]

[ddnet:master] 5 new commits

7e9129c Use doxygen style for all fs_* functions - Robyt3 b67a1f5 Add fs_is_file to check if a given path is file - Robyt3 f80e962 Add IStorage::FileExists and IStorage::FolderExists - Robyt3 e29a6e2 Show error message when downloaded map cannot be saved - Robyt3 b8e7160 Merge #6299 - bors[bot]

12:01

bors[bot]

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue closed: #5825 Map download fails if there's a map (with wrong permissions?) already there.

12:01

bors[bot]

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #6299 Show error message when downloaded map cannot be saved

Jupstar ✪

Have u at least tried it for 2 weeks

no, why would I if everything is fine for me with an older client

Freezy

no, why would I if everything is fine for me with an older client

I'd say, so your brain gets used to it and we don't have extra work because of a single unhappy person

wont be added 99%

12:10

so u gotta adapt

Jupstar ✪

I'd say, so your brain gets used to it and we don't have extra work because of a single unhappy person

why would I go through that process in the first place if everything is fine in an older client verion..? xD Idk if you just make this up but I've heard plenty of negative opionions on this, so I kind of don't know what to say to this. Anyway, this was just a suggestion since I'm good on my current client, just for you to take note and perhaps even consider adding it

Then use old client

if you ask my opinion, u can stay on ur older client, we take no responsability on bugs, security issues, or the game not being compatible in the future

12:11

thats my take xd

12:12

time to find RCEs kek

Freezy

why would I go through that process in the first place if everything is fine in an older client verion..? xD Idk if you just make this up but I've heard plenty of negative opionions on this, so I kind of don't know what to say to this. Anyway, this was just a suggestion since I'm good on my current client, just for you to take note and perhaps even consider adding it

Maybe in future we have a new client, that fixes this issue in a different way, we will see

12:12

But rn just use old client if it's so horrible

i was also against it, but after playing a bit u get used

I just don't understand why you'd force this kind of animation setting after tw has existed with these settings for ~15 years

12:14

if it could just be optional

How is it forced? Old clients are still useable

It is optional, game is open source

Cipy29

It is optional, game is open source

yeah, I lack the programming knowledge to do so, that's why I'm suggesting it here

Jupstar ✪

How is it forced? Old clients are still useable

obviously it's forced in the newer client versions

Freezy

I just don't understand why you'd force this kind of animation setting after tw has existed with these settings for ~15 years

Because we are open to change. If we see a way to improve the game, then we evaluate if it is worth to add an option. However it is really frustrating to accommodate users who are not even willing to try it out. I think the quote "Not every change is an improvement but every improvement is a change" is really fitting. If you are not open to try change out, you are also dismissing improvement, which is not a healthy mindset for developing a game.

Freezy

why would I go through that process in the first place if everything is fine in an older client verion..? xD Idk if you just make this up but I've heard plenty of negative opionions on this, so I kind of don't know what to say to this. Anyway, this was just a suggestion since I'm good on my current client, just for you to take note and perhaps even consider adding it

I'm the only dev that is remotely interested in adding this option and maintaining it and I'm way too busy to work on that. So unless you convince another dev, it's unlikely this will be added

You can convince me that the sitting animation looks too bad if that makes u happy xd

tbh I use ghost skin so I don't see the animations

Tho it is quite funny that some people just refuse to even give it a try. This would be an interesting psych study

Patiga

Because we are open to change. If we see a way to improve the game, then we evaluate if it is worth to add an option. However it is really frustrating to accommodate users who are not even willing to try it out. I think the quote "Not every change is an improvement but every improvement is a change" is really fitting. If you are not open to try change out, you are also dismissing improvement, which is not a healthy mindset for developing a game.

I can understand your point for sure. It's definitely nice to see you guys making changes and trying to improve the game! Anyway, I'm not so sure if it's the right way you're taking for tw since it's a rather traditional game for most of the players and is based on its old player base. Hence, forcing such graphics settings just mustn't be, well at least in my opinion

1

Freezy

I can understand your point for sure. It's definitely nice to see you guys making changes and trying to improve the game! Anyway, I'm not so sure if it's the right way you're taking for tw since it's a rather traditional game for most of the players and is based on its old player base. Hence, forcing such graphics settings just mustn't be, well at least in my opinion

Fwiw we have almost equal amounts of old and new players nowadays since the release in china

Jupstar ✪

You can convince me that the sitting animation looks too bad if that makes u happy xd

there you got a start @Learath2 :D

Learath2

Fwiw we have almost equal amounts of old and new players nowadays since the release in china

yeah, I took that into account but at least for the other 50 % it's that type of game

Freezy

there you got a start @Learath2 :D

He is not convinced enough to actually code it for you. Convince more

For the record, I've used the new freeze bars for a long time and I still think that the stars could be validly more prefereable than the freeze bar: freeze bars only give percentage, whereas stars give exactly seconds. As far as maintanability is concered, I'd say that the old star-way is automatically enabled on fng servers? This makes it even weirder why there is no manual setting for it. (it makes sense also on dfng for example)

Freezy

yeah, I took that into account but at least for the other 50 % it's that type of game

And of that 50% there just isn't a significant amount of players complaining. If there were we'd also be questioning the decision ourselves

zogtib

For the record, I've used the new freeze bars for a long time and I still think that the stars could be validly more prefereable than the freeze bar: freeze bars only give percentage, whereas stars give exactly seconds. As far as maintanability is concered, I'd say that the old star-way is automatically enabled on fng servers? This makes it even weirder why there is no manual setting for it. (it makes sense also on dfng for example)

The stars are server sided. So fng just sends them, we don't do anything special

Well, ok this makes sense now, thanks.

Anyway, one day I'll give y'all stars back. Just need to finish uni first

Learath2

And of that 50% there just isn't a significant amount of players complaining. If there were we'd also be questioning the decision ourselves

I mentioned this earlier but I myself heard much of complains about those things. Anyway, as Patiga said earlier: Because we are open to change. If we see a way to improve the game, then we evaluate if it is worth to add an option. So if that is the case, maybe a poll on that topic could be justified?

It's very hard to poll these things. A poll on discord would exclude the entirety of the chinese community and the people who play the game but aren't in the discord. Not only that people who aren't happy with the status quo are more likely to turn out to vote in the first place

12:37

We can do a poll if you want but it'd be more to gauge about how many people are unhappy with it, rather than to make a decision

12:39

It's hard to even find a good poll question without being leading. Polls are just hard to conduct in a proper manner

I mean you just said that the issue was that there wasn't a significant amount of people unhappy with the change. You'd figure that out by making a poll. People who like the bars and spec animation won't be affected since it'd just be an option added. However, you'd still find out how many people are unhappy.

And of that 50% there just isn't a significant amount of players complaining. If there were we'd also be questioning the decision ourselves

Obviously I understand that you guys are not getting paid and do it because of fun. But I still think a poll would do its job. But as I said already, I'm just making suggestions since I'm perfectly fine on an older client version... :D

The only problem with a poll is how it'll be perceived. I'd treat it as a headcount of people who don't like it. The people who voted however will say "f3 > f4, remov freezbar"

12:48

If we do make one, we should make it very clear we are just looking to see how many people have issues with it

Learath2

If we do make one, we should make it very clear we are just looking to see how many people have issues with it

I mean obviously those are the only votes that are interesting since it's only the option to add both which is in question. The current animations stay either way, so there is not really something to lose for the players who like it this way or is there?

Learath2

Our argument is that it's harder for us to maintain the code when there are more options This specific one can be added and I would maintain it, but I literally don't have the time to add it and none of the other devs want to spend their time adding an option for the remaining holdouts that want the stars back

afaik this is the main reason "maintainability"

Yep

every option added increses complexity, before u had 1 path, now 2, and if they mix together, its exponential

I think the main issue is still that there is no developer here that wants to work on it, whether there is a poll or not. The only point of a poll would be to motivate some developer to work on this and keep maintaining it

I mean it's worth a try

13:00

why not

Just 10 boolean options would be 1024 different combinations of options to test. Obviously some are obviously unrelated, but still goes to illustrate the issue

this may sound absurd but, on a open source game, if you want a change more often than not you gotta lead it, become a dev, be the change

13:01

or quit like lynn kek

I mean if that's literally the ideology you're standing up for then you'll probably lead ddnet into its death (edited)

its the ideology of open source

13:02

no devs? dead game indeed

13:02

you are the entitled one here

13:02

asking for work for freew

13:02

if nobody wants to do it, they not at fault

Ryozuki

no devs? dead game indeed

it's the same if there'd be no players

i dont see the relation here

u told me to quit if I don't learn to code

well money also can get you many things

But one is scarce the other isn't. There is like 1 active dev per 400 players

my price in this case would be 500€ i wouldnt bother for less

13:04

But it is sadly the truth indeed. You need to motivate people to make changes for you somehow

13:04

It could be a shared goal, it could be money, it could be positive reception by a large number of users

Freezy

u told me to quit if I don't learn to code

i told u it wont be done 99% unless u do it urself

13:05

whether u decide to quit its ur decision

I'm actually already motivated to do it, so that hurdle is cleared technically. You just need to wait until I have the time for it

there u have

13:06

just wait 1 year

13:06

or smth xd

I'm sorry to say that but I really don't see a point in having a whole discussion with you now since I think your argumentation is odd and I've already discussed it with Learath. @Ryozuki

Ryozuki

every option added increses complexity, before u had 1 path, now 2, and if they mix together, its exponential

can someone explain this to me? (I don't care about the change or not, just don't understand this). Isn't it just a simple if-else statement? Use old animation or new? (a bit more complex but you got my point)

xD

I think a poll would make a fair amount of sense based on the earlier discussion

Ryozuki

just wait 1 year

Until june or so I have a metric ton of studying. After that I'll have a much lighter load till september, I guess I could sneak it in there

well this is a public chat so ill keep talking

13:08

the mute option is there

I don't stop u from talking ofc

just want to point out that u are dismissing a valid and realistic argument, and calling it odd

But please note that all I made were suggestions and that I already said that I lack the programming knowledge to do so. I don't want to repeat myself too often actually

Devinci

can someone explain this to me? (I don't care about the change or not, just don't understand this). Isn't it just a simple if-else statement? Use old animation or new? (a bit more complex but you got my point)

The problem is the testing, these old options that aren't default and aren't used by many go neglected and over time that if statement ends up in another. Then another, then it gets split in two. Someone makes a logic error while negating some branch and you end up with very annoying bugs in deeply nested code

Devinci

can someone explain this to me? (I don't care about the change or not, just don't understand this). Isn't it just a simple if-else statement? Use old animation or new? (a bit more complex but you got my point)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity

Cyclomatic complexity

Cyclomatic complexity is a software metric used to indicate the complexity of a program. It is a quantitative measure of the number of linearly independent paths through a program's source code. It was developed by Thomas J. McCabe, Sr. in 1976. Cyclomatic complexity is computed using the control-flow graph of the program: the nodes of the graph...

13:10

check this

13:10

the theory

Learath2

The problem is the testing, these old options that aren't default and aren't used by many go neglected and over time that if statement ends up in another. Then another, then it gets split in two. Someone makes a logic error while negating some branch and you end up with very annoying bugs in deeply nested code

Oh yeah okay, so the real issue here is the testing part /getting sure there are no conflicts. not really the programming one, right?

In this specific case I'm okay with adding some complexity to make people happy as I have an idea that will be relatively low maintainance

Devinci

Oh yeah okay, so the real issue here is the testing part /getting sure there are no conflicts. not really the programming one, right?

testing and making sure nothing breaks is programming

Devinci

Oh yeah okay, so the real issue here is the testing part /getting sure there are no conflicts. not really the programming one, right?

Yeah, it's an ongoing maintainance issue, not a we cant program this its too hard issue

okay yeah thanks ^^

most of the burden in dev is maintenance

13:12

best code is no code

13:13

Jeff Atwood: “the best code is no code at all. Every new line of code you willingly bring into the world is code that has to be debugged, code that has to be read and understood, code that has to be supported. Every time you write new code, you should do so reluctantly, under duress, because you completely exhausted all your other options.” Robert Galanakis: “The fastest code is the code which does not run. The code easiest to maintain is the code that was never written.”

13:13

#mood #lifestyle

13:13

kek

Honestly, yes. A set of well polished core features is much bettet than dozens of features with untested interactions. I honestly believe this level of customization should be left to forks

delete ddnet code greenthing

@deen is there public read access to the database?

"an advisor's most important job is to guide you on what you should not do or attempt."

13:16

xd

cauldron

@deen is there public read access to the database?

you can download a daily dump

13:16

https://ddnet.org/stats/

Yes I know

go here and scroll to bottom

13:16

but there is no public

13:16

exposing the database server means exposing it to ddos

13:16

so its a nono

I shouldn‘t bother, I‘m just curious

there could be a api, which would also be exposed to ddos, and thus needs to be ratelimited, which can be circunvented by a botnet, which means more ddos

Ryozuki

exposing the database server means exposing it to ddos

Ok, I understand tjats the reason

13:18

Couldn‘t harmful people just get the db ip in the code? Or by tracking the network traffic? Or isnt the ip enough to ddos?

13:19

Anyway, thanks.

the ip isnt on the code

13:21

its obtained from config files

-> and those config files are only on the game servers, which the clients have no access to

So there is some kind of gatewayserver? (Sry i have no clue)

13:24

I mean couldnt you put on wireshark and see where the client sends data?

you connect to the game servers, which are rented by ddnet all around the world your client can't access the server more than just 'let me play the game in the server' those are the only server that your client knows your client has no idea what those servers are doing in the background, you can't spy on someones network traffic by knowing their ip the ddnet server do have the config files with the ip of the database servers

Anyway… I am just curious, it‘s not needed, nor I demand it.

your client never directly interacts with the database servers

13:27

you don't have to excuse yourself for being curious :)

Patiga

you connect to the game servers, which are rented by ddnet all around the world your client can't access the server more than just 'let me play the game in the server' those are the only server that your client knows your client has no idea what those servers are doing in the background, you can't spy on someones network traffic by knowing their ip the ddnet server do have the config files with the ip of the database servers

Aha okay. I didn‘t know the server does everything. I thought meybe the client sends directly data somewhere. Thanks

Ryozuki

there could be a api, which would also be exposed to ddos, and thus needs to be ratelimited, which can be circunvented by a botnet, which means more ddos

I think an api with a ratelimit would be cute. We could also service the api from a mirror of the db server just in case

i could make that

13:30

with rust

13:31

tell me some functionality u may want

Never a bad time to use rust

I am asking it, because I am still thinking about starting a project for a (native) mobile ddnet rank app. But it‘s just a thought, and from experience I am not really productive, so I only would ask for sonething like an api as soon as I had a nice app, that works well wirh the database dump.

it just happens that im making some apis for other stuff so i have it fresh in mind

13:32

one of my side projects: (ffxiv related) https://market.xivhub.org/

Xivhub Market

View FFXIV market board data.

13:32

made with rust, psql, svelte

13:32

xd

13:32

idk how it looks on mobile tho

13:32

fck mobile

Ok haha

what do u need from the api?

Learath2

I think an api with a ratelimit would be cute. We could also service the api from a mirror of the db server just in case

a replica?

Ryozuki

what do u need from the api?

If you mean me, I‘d just need the stats like on the rank page, and url of map images

Ryozuki are you doing web development too? I think I saw the unique clan page as a project on github or your site or somewhere. (edited)

Anyway, I‘m just doing this mobile app as a side project to get into mobile dev. It‘s not that I want to have it used by the community, but since there is the data and user base, I think it‘s a great opportunity for a mobile app, that people might actually use.

Is solofng not open-source?

it is

14:04

https://github.com/Jupeyy/teeworlds-fng2-mod/

GitHub - Jupeyy/teeworlds-fng2-mod: FNG mod for teeworlds, that adv...

FNG mod for teeworlds, that advances the original FNG idea by golden spikes and other features - GitHub - Jupeyy/teeworlds-fng2-mod: FNG mod for teeworlds, that advances the original FNG idea by go...

Thanks

1

sv_gametype fng2solo

I see

use git clone https://github.com/Jupeyy/teeworlds-fng2-mod.git --branch fng_06 if you want to run the 0.6 branch

14:07

else just git clone https://github.com/Jupeyy/teeworlds-fng2-mod.git

cauldron

Ryozuki are you doing web development too? I think I saw the unique clan page as a project on github or your site or somewhere. (edited)

i do lots of things

nice

15:25

golang is a joke

I respect the go people for experimenting with going into extremes, like plan9's everything-is-a-file

i used to be kinda a go fan until i met rust