DDraceNetwork - mapping

Soapy Sandwich

I took the time to make a list of physics abusing bugs: 1. Shotgun bug (Real no no on this one) 2. Any other speed gaining bug from stacked tees 3. Running into other tees while they shotgun you to gain speed 4. Reaching any speed that slows your tee down 5. Moving too far into stoppers 6. Falling through doors or other tiles 7. Ninja stacking 8. Shotgun the floor to gain speed 9. Shotgun a wall to gain speed in the wrong direction 10. Weak hook allowing falling in stoppers 11. Downward speed flying 12. Freeze Hammer 13. Weak weapons in freeze when lasered 14. Explosive bullets only hitting one target 15. Speeder upward launching bug. 16. Tp gun through corner bug. 17. Double tp touches 18. Touching tiles/weapons on the otherside of tp 19. Gaining/Losing speed by moving left or right in upward speeders. 20. Magic edge 21. Weak bounce or strong bounce, one of them is a bug. 22. Weak hook cause that's clearly the worse one. If anyone can think of any other mechanics that made this game interesting and unique please let us know so we can add them to the ban list.

0. The teleport bug at the beginning of Cosyris

LOL

this one still blows my mind

murpi is clearly the winner here

anyways heres my take, if the bug is easy to produce, and doesnt introduce a bunch of unwanted skips in the level, it should be fine things like speeder bugs are really hard and things like the shotgun bug could skip half the map

murpi

0. The teleport bug at the beginning of Cosyris

that counts as 15?

No idea

00:11

I guess so

louis

1. unintended 2. unintended 3. unintended 4. unintended 5. expected behavior 6. technically expected but there's no reason to use this over a better speed checking method, and it looks buggy 7. this isnt really problematic in itself but it often is used for other stacking bugs 8. technically expected behavior, it doesn't make too much sense but it's also very accepted anyways, and once you think about it it makes sense 9. not sure what you mean but probably same with 8 10. this bug is just dumb 11. funny but doesn't belong in an actual part since its unintended 12. intended 13. weak bug category, unintended 14. unintended 15. unintended 16. dont think this is a bug but its annoying to play a part like this 17. similar to 6. 18. same with 6. 19. not certain on how this one works so can't say, but this move isn't fun imo 20. its fun imo 21. remove weak 22. remove weak

Ah sorry, here are the corrections to the bugs allowed list. 5. Falling through stoppers allowed. 6. Skipping shields, doors and other tiles with upward or downward speed is allowed if the speed is obtained without bugs. 7. Ninja stacking allowed just don't do anything cool with it! 8. Not sure how a shotgun shot going right that also pulls you to the right is expected given how it usually works but allowed. 9. Same as above 10. Weak hook falling in stoppers is allowed but recognize that it is stupid. 11. downward speed flying can't be used to skip tiles, gotta get that speed legit! 12. Sorry by Freeze Hammer I meant Strong Jump on Freeze Hammer but allowed? 13. No using grenade when unfrozen in freeze by a laser! 16. Definitely a bug! XD Tee moves through corner not the bullet. 17. Double tp touches allowed aslong as not confusing. 18. Touching weapons and tiles other side of tp allowed 19. Not fun but nothing in rules says your map must be fun so allowed. 20. Magic edge allowed! 21 + 22 Yeah! No more weak! XD

louis

1. unintended 2. unintended 3. unintended 4. unintended 5. expected behavior 6. technically expected but there's no reason to use this over a better speed checking method, and it looks buggy 7. this isnt really problematic in itself but it often is used for other stacking bugs 8. technically expected behavior, it doesn't make too much sense but it's also very accepted anyways, and once you think about it it makes sense 9. not sure what you mean but probably same with 8 10. this bug is just dumb 11. funny but doesn't belong in an actual part since its unintended 12. intended 13. weak bug category, unintended 14. unintended 15. unintended 16. dont think this is a bug but its annoying to play a part like this 17. similar to 6. 18. same with 6. 19. not certain on how this one works so can't say, but this move isn't fun imo 20. its fun imo 21. remove weak 22. remove weak

5. this is completely unintended since it allows you to go through stoppers which is against their intended use 6. this is not expected or intended behavior 7. still not intended 8. this is not intended and is used to abuse the physics of the game to get more speed 9. same with 8, also not intended 10. unintended 11. doesnt belong to an actual part yet even though it is a fun mechanic to use. 12. freezehammer is most definitely not intended but proves our point even more, unintended behaviours can lead to cool and interesting parts/mechanics 16. may be annoying for you to play a part like this but its still a cool mechanic 17. still unintended 18. still unintended 19. subjective, unintended 20. "its fun imo" wtf so you are the arbiter of what's fun and something that I or others find fun might not be allowed bc you dont like it? 21. there is a server setting just put it in your next map 22. there is a server setting just put it in your next map all of these behaviors are unintended but are used in cool ways sometimes and if they are allowed in the future will continue to be used in cool ways

00:12

lmao i didnt see u were doing the same thing haha

Soapy Sandwich

Ah sorry, here are the corrections to the bugs allowed list. 5. Falling through stoppers allowed. 6. Skipping shields, doors and other tiles with upward or downward speed is allowed if the speed is obtained without bugs. 7. Ninja stacking allowed just don't do anything cool with it! 8. Not sure how a shotgun shot going right that also pulls you to the right is expected given how it usually works but allowed. 9. Same as above 10. Weak hook falling in stoppers is allowed but recognize that it is stupid. 11. downward speed flying can't be used to skip tiles, gotta get that speed legit! 12. Sorry by Freeze Hammer I meant Strong Jump on Freeze Hammer but allowed? 13. No using grenade when unfrozen in freeze by a laser! 16. Definitely a bug! XD Tee moves through corner not the bullet. 17. Double tp touches allowed aslong as not confusing. 18. Touching weapons and tiles other side of tp allowed 19. Not fun but nothing in rules says your map must be fun so allowed. 20. Magic edge allowed! 21 + 22 Yeah! No more weak! XD

your first 5. was "moving too far into stoppers" and now its "falling through stoppers"? lol

okay falling through stoppers halfway is same as falling through them

00:14

both are unintended behavior

unintended but also there was literally 0 effort made to prevent it from happening when they were coded

louis

your first 5. was "moving too far into stoppers" and now its "falling through stoppers"? lol

If you go too far into a stopper you can get out the other side XD

should this part at the end of grim reaper be allowed in the future?

Skystrife

okay falling through stoppers halfway is same as falling through them

not true lal

Skystrife

should this part at the end of grim reaper be allowed in the future?

and no

(btw what is "magic edge")

ds273

unintended but also there was literally 0 effort made to prevent it from happening when they were coded

tell the coder not me

ds273

(btw what is "magic edge")

like infinite staying on perfect edge

00:16

by a hook or smth like that

oh you mean like your hook is extended and like diagonal but your tee is stuck on an outer corner?

00:17

even though you should be pulled one way or the other

Skystrife

5. this is completely unintended since it allows you to go through stoppers which is against their intended use 6. this is not expected or intended behavior 7. still not intended 8. this is not intended and is used to abuse the physics of the game to get more speed 9. same with 8, also not intended 10. unintended 11. doesnt belong to an actual part yet even though it is a fun mechanic to use. 12. freezehammer is most definitely not intended but proves our point even more, unintended behaviours can lead to cool and interesting parts/mechanics 16. may be annoying for you to play a part like this but its still a cool mechanic 17. still unintended 18. still unintended 19. subjective, unintended 20. "its fun imo" wtf so you are the arbiter of what's fun and something that I or others find fun might not be allowed bc you dont like it? 21. there is a server setting just put it in your next map 22. there is a server setting just put it in your next map all of these behaviors are unintended but are used in cool ways sometimes and if they are allowed in the future will continue to be used in cool ways

so u blame me for being the arbiter of what's fun but at the end you say they are cool

00:17

the truth is that ddnet has subjective rules just like almost anything in life is subjective

louis

like infinite staying on perfect edge

Yeah we also use the term to describe hitting an edge without getting dj.

ds273

(btw what is "magic edge")

i personally call magic edge when u slide off edge and dont get dj happens pretty often

1

louis

so u blame me for being the arbiter of what's fun but at the end you say they are cool

IM saying to allow everything so anything people think is fun can play the game how they want to play it

u can play the game however you want

00:17

the button is right there

tbh any attempt to ban all glitches is gonna run into complications defining the boundary of what is a "glitch" ive seen this so many times it's not even funny

i need to fix the graphics still gr gr gr (edited)

Soapy Sandwich

Yeah we also use the term to describe hitting an edge without getting dj.

oh then i don't think its fun

00:18

that one is dumb and frustrating

Skystrife

IM saying to allow everything so anything people think is fun can play the game how they want to play it

Pssh what can louis do? Ravie says no so it's no XD

louis

that one is dumb and frustrating

Both versions can be dumb and frustrating XD

Soapy Sandwich

Yeah we also use the term to describe hitting an edge without getting dj.

killed so many of my runs

never had the experience where getting my dj back was frustrating

nothing

killed so many of my runs

You're in luck! I will decline all maps where this trashy bug is possible.

Soapy Sandwich

You're in luck! I will decline all maps where this trashy bug is possible.

u gotta decline whole ddnet any edge can make "magic edge" happen

@louis is freeze jumping allowed?

00:23

that's very much unintended but is in a lot of maps including recently released ones

No no we gonna have epic new puzzle maps with flat ground, no edges and just hold right puzzles. Oh and a wall on the left so players don't get confused on where to go.

it will absolutely be arbitrary where the line is, unless you just don't ban them and go off of merit because there will always be grey areas like, is hammerfly a glitch? it's not intended what about regular speed fly? people already mentioned the weird SG bounce stuff, which is abused in like, quite a lot of sg-focused parts and also a lot of speedruns. (doesn't the newest SG solo map from the other day make use of this behavior too??) that behavior is a consequence of the fact that tees are fat, you are pulled towards reflection point, and the bounce is not instantaneous

Skystrife

@louis is freeze jumping allowed?

Clearly bug! Add it to the list!

Skystrife

@louis is freeze jumping allowed?

depends on the circumstance but i'd be fine with it

00:24

in solo maps i'd recommend using the deep jump instead

00:24

and it's a common occurrence in normal gameplay so people are familiar with it

I'm not saying to not ban glitches, but like, it is important to keep in mind that there's wiggle room there and it's not entirely clear what that means

louis

and it's a common occurrence in normal gameplay so people are familiar with it

why do things have to be common in normal gameplay? aled wasn't common in normal gameplay until eventually it was

00:25

and now theres whole maps around it

louis

and it's a common occurrence in normal gameplay so people are familiar with it

Lets make a bug tutorial map so all other unintended stuff can also become normal gameplay, then no bugs need to be banned. Great idea!

Soapy Sandwich

Lets make a bug tutorial map so all other unintended stuff can also become normal gameplay, then no bugs need to be banned. Great idea!

I'll make that map, and we can put it on fun server so anyone can learn bugs

is hooking through corners a bug? if that's not, what about edgehooks? those were totally not intended mechanics either but they are like the bread and butter of ddrace

1

then those bugs can be allowed to be used in maps

aled was always in gameplay people just didn't do it midair with freeze under them

(ok maybe not edgehooks but you get what i mean)

ds273

is hooking through corners a bug? if that's not, what about edgehooks? those were totally not intended mechanics either but they are like the bread and butter of ddrace

those are all bugs and unintended behaviors

unfortunately not everyone jumps into max speed parameter speeders at the correct pixel value to gain 50000 speed

Skystrife

I'll make that map, and we can put it on fun server so anyone can learn bugs

Hey don't leave me out of this! If you gonna waste your time then count me in XD

louis

aled was always in gameplay people just didn't do it midair with freeze under them

bro you clearly didnt play 7 years ago, people didnt even think to do that

ds273

is hooking through corners a bug? if that's not, what about edgehooks? those were totally not intended mechanics either but they are like the bread and butter of ddrace

Both banned now! XD

1

yall just trying to start shit anyways

00:28

gores is common gameplay but we don't release gores

00:28

do u know why?

because its boring as shit

Because kog is a thing

00:28

if kog wasnt a thing more ppl would want gores on ddnet

00:28

I guarantee

Skystrife

if kog wasnt a thing more ppl would want gores on ddnet

if kog wasnt a thing then kog would have been made a thing

time to host bugnet

1

louis

yall just trying to start shit anyways

I believe what you are witnessing is a protest XD

no, you're being unnecessarily sarcastic about it

00:30

and you're trying to poke at small things to make me and others look "silly"

Soapy Sandwich

I believe what you are witnessing is a protest XD

how is this a protest? you guys are just whining constantly about a map because it didnt get released

where the fact is that the rules we do are subjective and based on what the majority of the playerbase enjoys

it was fairly declined

if you want to have your fun little bug maps then i suggest starting a server network

[soapy throwing tomato sauce at cerberus] WHAT IS WORTH MORE? LIFE? OR ART?

Voxel

how is this a protest? you guys are just whining constantly about a map because it didnt get released

No I am whining about the changes to the testing and how poor the rules are. I requested and started fighting for the rules long before the map was even started. This is me continuing that. I protested banning bugs before Puzzle Partners was released. This has nothing to do with the map.

I'm not saying cryptic should or shouldn't get released. My point is that banning all bugs across the board without actually specifying anything is vague and ambiguous

louis

no, you're being unnecessarily sarcastic about it

Weirdly being nice and trying to have a conversation in the tester channel didn't really achieve much. Mocking in a public place has gotten far more of a conversation going. So "unnecessarily" probably isn't the word I would use XD

2

louis

where the fact is that the rules we do are subjective and based on what the majority of the playerbase enjoys

why does EVERY map have to be what a majority of the playerbase enjoys? there are tons of players who don't like edge hook maps, but those still get released, some ppl are tired of barren style maps, but those get released every other day. not everyone will enjoy puzzle maps or maps showing off some bugs/mechanics, but some people do and because of that you should allow those maps to be released.

ds273

I'm not saying cryptic should or shouldn't get released. My point is that banning all bugs across the board without actually specifying anything is vague and ambiguous

yeah and if we only ban certain ones you can see what happens (right here)

this is also what happens if you ban them vaguely so that doesnt really mean much to my point

Soapy Sandwich

Weirdly being nice and trying to have a conversation in the tester channel didn't really achieve much. Mocking in a public place has gotten far more of a conversation going. So "unnecessarily" probably isn't the word I would use XD

it starts a flame war, not a convo, and u lose respect like that

1

Skystrife

why does EVERY map have to be what a majority of the playerbase enjoys? there are tons of players who don't like edge hook maps, but those still get released, some ppl are tired of barren style maps, but those get released every other day. not everyone will enjoy puzzle maps or maps showing off some bugs/mechanics, but some people do and because of that you should allow those maps to be released.

by that argument we can upload gores as well

00:37

and i am pretty certain that even though some might enjoy a map like cryptic, it will be a very very small percent (edited)

louis

by that argument we can upload gores as well

sure, upload 1 or 2 good gores style maps a year

louis

and i am pretty certain that even though some might enjoy a map like cryptic, it will be a very very small percent (edited)

i dont give a shit about cryptic, maybe cryptic is poorly made, but that style of map shouldnt be banned

Skystrife

i dont give a shit about cryptic, maybe cryptic is poorly made, but that style of map shouldnt be banned

you are making it so that its impossible to make a part that i cant just look at for 2 seconds and figure out what to do (edited)

yeah doubt

00:38

go play cerberus without looking at parts beforehand (edited)

cerberus is not hard to figure out

anyway what's with the rule "Special tiles can't be overused, used if they're not needed or used to fix cheats." what are special tiles here? what is 'fix cheats'? like, genuinely

it adds more complexity since its 4p but its just as easy as any 2p map

ds273

anyway what's with the rule "Special tiles can't be overused, used if they're not needed or used to fix cheats." what are special tiles here? what is 'fix cheats'? like, genuinely

like using no hammer to fix a drag part cheat

ds273

anyway what's with the rule "Special tiles can't be overused, used if they're not needed or used to fix cheats." what are special tiles here? what is 'fix cheats'? like, genuinely

Do not over use shields to remove weapon if there is a way to skip shields and keep the weapon etc. (edited)

Skystrife

it adds more complexity since its 4p but its just as easy as any 2p map

it adds complexity in a better way than abusing bugs

louis

like using no hammer to fix a drag part cheat

how is that overusing? XD

you could say <bug map> is not hard to figure out, it adds complmexity since it abuses bugs, but other than that it's as easy as a 2p map

Soapy Sandwich

how is that overusing? XD

i refer to smth in the style of this

00:41

Arctic Frost 2 leak

louis

i refer to smth in the style of this

Ok yeah that's terrible, should be this

3

Soapy Sandwich

Ok yeah that's terrible, should be this

or maybe just maybe having the gameplay not use no-hammer as a crutch to avoid unwanted skips?

Voxel

or maybe just maybe having the gameplay not use no-hammer as a crutch to avoid unwanted skips?

Well I wouldn't call this unwanted skips XD This looks more like a part where the mapper wanted to challenge you to not use hammer. But you are right we can't have hook fly parts cause they just remove hammer to prevent hammer fly skips. Time to lose the crutch XD

00:50

Or maybe just maybe we not call it a crutch?

hm. you're right. i guess i should release a map with this in it

Voxel dammit would you please just once read the rules!!! There has to be enough space in parts for comfortable movement.

Also the part is trash so I wouldn't release it XD

see now you're getting it

01:10

sort of

I thought we were talking about cheat prevention? What cheat did I now allow with my changes? XD

I think the problem is that "no special tiles used to fix cheats" isnt really describing the problem that the rule is trying to address, and sounds like it's telling people to make shitty maps that are skippable and broken. That phrasing is also very unclear about what it actually means. The problem that it is (I presume) trying to address is that of minimizing unavoidable message spam when trying to play the map as intended, whenever possible (edited)

Voxel

see now you're getting it

If the point is don't put tiles in that aren't needed, nobody disagreed on that point. If the point is don't prevent cheats/skips, I didn't "get it".

Is @Im 'corneum still allowed to spell his name with special tiles or are they considered not needed?

Besides all the bug talk I really think a map shouldn't be declined after being strung along for half a year or longer. Kind of shows disrespect for the time of everyone involved. It would be nice to always make such a decision after like a month or so imo

1

Supdef

Besides all the bug talk I really think a map shouldn't be declined after being strung along for half a year or longer. Kind of shows disrespect for the time of everyone involved. It would be nice to always make such a decision after like a month or so imo

say this to 4k justatest

Supdef

Besides all the bug talk I really think a map shouldn't be declined after being strung along for half a year or longer. Kind of shows disrespect for the time of everyone involved. It would be nice to always make such a decision after like a month or so imo

As a tester you don't actually have to test maps, you can just ignore all responsibility. Also the mentality is test any map you want, there isn't really any encouragement to test maps that have been waiting longer than others. The best way to speed up your map getting tested is to ask tester to test your map or befriend a tester so they give your maps priority. It's a shitty unfair system that they aren't willing to change.

1

Soapy Sandwich

As a tester you don't actually have to test maps, you can just ignore all responsibility. Also the mentality is test any map you want, there isn't really any encouragement to test maps that have been waiting longer than others. The best way to speed up your map getting tested is to ask tester to test your map or befriend a tester so they give your maps priority. It's a shitty unfair system that they aren't willing to change.

Shots fired

Stepfunn

Shots fired

he got his role removed so he can say whatever he wants

Yea was wondering what happened to his tester role (edited)

cyberFighter

he got his role removed so he can say whatever he wants

Haha the role never stopped me from saying what I wanted xD

he lost social credit

Soapy Sandwich

Haha the role never stopped me from saying what I wanted xD

Tell me what think about me. DO ME DIRTY

14:10

Let it all out

He spoke a tiny a little a small bit of fax

Stepfunn you are a sexy beasty but I think we need to go on a few dates before I do you dirty

Knuski

He spoke a tiny a little a small bit of fax

Knox

wtf

Soapy Sandwich

Stepfunn you are a sexy beasty but I think we need to go on a few dates before I do you dirty

stepfunn is like 14 year old

Hahaha ok about 6 years of dates XD

cyberFighter

stepfunn is like 14 year old

Why are you leaking

14:11

Omfg

Stepfunn

Knox

Stepbro

14:12

Im 11

Knuski

Stepbro

Are you stuck?

kid named 11

Knuski

Im 11

Im 58 lets add up

1

Move to offtopic please

Vy0x2

Move to offtopic please

no u

btw is logo for maps hd or not

Not

14:17

When new map @cyberFighter

14:17

I befriended cyberfighter btw

14:17

Insta rls of his maps

Ravie seems like hes on another Power trip. Great way to lose mappers. Well done @Ravie

@Pipou you were supposed to bring balance to the @Ravie! You were the chosen one XD

Just map good and maps will be released . If you map some weird As shit nobody wants to play dont blame testers.

Define "good mapping"

14:22

Ama

Just map good and maps will be released . If you map some weird As shit nobody wants to play dont blame testers.

Define "map good" XD Had to fight for Just Pseudo fly to be released but the community seems to enjoy it. Does map good mean team 0 or barren maps?

Cuase the rules failed to define "good mapping"

Suck each other off in voicechat

We did that earlier

Ama

Suck each other off in voicechat

Ah yeah if that is "map good" we do it all the time! best mappers

Just pseudo fly is just another fly map its nothing special in my opinion

And so are your t0 maps, in my opinion

It should be released As its part of the game No idea why you had to fight for that

just another t0 map

14:24

FUN

14:25

lets make 10000 more t0 maps, surely the next one will be different. right?

Define "special map" troll

JimmyJazzThe1st

lets make 10000 more t0 maps, surely the next one will be different. right?

Does that mean u never want to see a t0 map in releases again? Or just simply less of them?

The question is what is a good map at the end of the day? Many of the maps I've made are weird and appeal to small groups of the community. Should we say no to maps that appeal to smaller groups of our community? Like puzzle maps which are now banned by the rules? How many people need to like a type of map for DDNet to release a map of that type.

Good is always subjective

14:27

U cant define it

Knuski

Does that mean u never want to see a t0 map in releases again? Or just simply less of them?

No i have no hate towrads them but when every map is either barren style, t0 or aim maps, it just reduces quality.

Knuski

Does that mean u never want to see a t0 map in releases again? Or just simply less of them?

I believe he is ok with the number of t0 maps being released, it's more he wants to see other parts of the community also represented with other types of maps being released.

Ok

What's wrong in releasing a new t0 map? Who does it practically hurt?

It hurts my will to get the points by finishing it

For example I don't see a problem with releasing shit maps too cuz it doesn't change anything at all, just play good maps

Bomb | DerpDEX | Ambit Finance

What's wrong in releasing a new t0 map? Who does it practically hurt?

Nobody, the point being made isn't that t0 is bad. It's more that just releasing the most popular types of maps is bad. They should be the majority of maps released but some new/different maps or concepts should also sneak through.

JimmyJazzThe1st

No i have no hate towrads them but when every map is either barren style, t0 or aim maps, it just reduces quality.

thats not even what our current rlses are like

SoapyraceSandwork

@louis look I finally lost my tester privileges XD Anyway did anyone respond the the rules criticism I made on the testers channel or respond to my question on who decided to ban bugs. I still wanna take on that fight but I can't see feedback now XD

Soapy Sandwich

@louis look I finally lost my tester privileges XD Anyway did anyone respond the the rules criticism I made on the testers channel or respond to my question on who decided to ban bugs. I still wanna take on that fight but I can't see feedback now XD

no responses to ur last message

Ah ok the usual XD Thanks louis

There is a difference between a pseudofly map and a map exploiting too many bugs within a puzzle. People were skeptical about pseudofly just as much as having aleds back then. Now they are part of everyday's gameplay, they are used pretty much everywhere and don't require special conditions. You can't compare those techniques and the chance to know that you could hit yourself with a shotgun while under the effect of a "hit-off" tile after it went through you once. (edited)

When comparing the two maps I was more trying to draw a distinction of what is a good map. Testers didn't like both maps at a point and now one is good? Where do we draw the line? There are players who love maps like "rocket is key" which also exploits bugs but they can't get more maps like that now. As far as I understand any exploit of a bug will get the puzzle map declined now. So why say "map exploiting too many bugs" that seems to suggest one or two bugs would be ok. If that is the case the rules are very unclear.

Could we even attempt to make the SAW map? @Soapy Sandwich Would that be too confusing? Rules are quite vague.

Over it @JimmyJazzThe1st until things are fixed I'm done mapping for DDNet.

GGRAVIE

I think it's pretty clear and you understood it, it's ok if it's a concept

Pipou

I think it's pretty clear and you understood it, it's ok if it's a concept

No Pipou, I didn't understand it at all. Ravie said that I can't make a sequel to stacked which just uses shotgun bug. It's part of the concept of the map but that doesn't matter cause it's a bug. Saying I understood it is just an outright lie.

Knuski

When new map @cyberFighter

ill try

The problem is you say one thing and Ravie says another. It's not clear at all.

The rules are only necessary for those trying to make awkward gameplay and we won't just write a 300 pages essay just for the few of you who are trying to make such maps. It's clear enough as it is

Ama

Just map good and maps will be released . If you map some weird As shit nobody wants to play dont blame testers.

thats not a very ama thing to say

Nobody needs a 300 page essay for rules, they just want clear rules. The current rules ban bug exploits hence no bugs can be used in any maps, what you are saying and what the rules are saying are two different things. If you think that's clear enough then I don't know what to tell you.

@Knuski wait how the fuck did that guys 2 trollsubs get accepted and mine didnt

Soapy Sandwich

No Pipou, I didn't understand it at all. Ravie said that I can't make a sequel to stacked which just uses shotgun bug. It's part of the concept of the map but that doesn't matter cause it's a bug. Saying I understood it is just an outright lie.

""map exploiting too many bugs" that seems to suggest one or two bugs would be ok" that's what it means, how is it a lie ?

15:10

We already made it clear, it can't be better unless it states all the many different conditions

15:13

You might already know that I'm fond of bugs as I have one great map gathering all my best findings, but that kind of map is only for personal fun, it can't ever be released on DDNet

@Pipou if we are going to discuss the rules, then again: 1. What is comfortable movement? Does it mean room so players don't block each other? Does it mean parts can't require tighter movement like hooking through a 1 tile gap? Can parts be restricted to try and force a specific way of doing the part or would that make movement uncomfortable. Does this rule only apply to team 0 maps or solo and 2 player forced maps too? 2. Does this rule apply to brutal and insane difficulties? 3. Seems to imply special tiles can't be used to fix cheats. What is a special tile? If removing hammer is a special tile does this mean we can't make hook fly parts as removing hammer just prevents cheating that part. 4. Does this mean all maps must be easy to solve? So no puzzle maps can be made at all. 5. What bugs aren't allowed? how many bugs are acceptable? Can you have alternate paths that use bugs but have to have a bug free path?

Pipou

""map exploiting too many bugs" that seems to suggest one or two bugs would be ok" that's what it means, how is it a lie ?

That's not in the rules.... that's how it's not clear and why I say you are contradicting the rules and what Ravie has said.

Pipou

You might already know that I'm fond of bugs as I have one great map gathering all my best findings, but that kind of map is only for personal fun, it can't ever be released on DDNet

Yeah I am fond of bugs too and there are many others who are also fans of them. Hence the objections to banning bugs on DDNet.

cyberFighter

@Knuski wait how the fuck did that guys 2 trollsubs get accepted and mine didnt

I dont know i havent taken a look yet

15:21

(I wont take a look)

1. Prevents glassbox kind of maps (for big teams) 2. It depends on the kind of maps (which is often linked to the map difficulty). That doesn't apply to maps meant to be faily, otherwise you should be able to get your mates back (a way back or teleport). 3. Stop cheap mapping, most of the time there is a workaround 4. Meant to keep a clean gameplay (no entity spam) 5. It's to prevent their use (usually bad) in general. We can make an exception at our own discretion if an exceptionally well made map uses a small bug as part of the map's mechanic. (edited)

Soapy Sandwich

Yeah I am fond of bugs too and there are many others who are also fans of them. Hence the objections to banning bugs on DDNet.

There should be a disassociated server dedicated to those maps then, so if changes occur on DDNet, it wouldn't matter

15:45

The last one isn't written down in the rules because it shouldn't be officially stated, not to encourage the use of bugs

Pipou

1. Prevents glassbox kind of maps (for big teams) 2. It depends on the kind of maps (which is often linked to the map difficulty). That doesn't apply to maps meant to be faily, otherwise you should be able to get your mates back (a way back or teleport). 3. Stop cheap mapping, most of the time there is a workaround 4. Meant to keep a clean gameplay (no entity spam) 5. It's to prevent their use (usually bad) in general. We can make an exception at our own discretion if an exceptionally well made map uses a small bug as part of the map's mechanic. (edited)

1. Probably should mention it's a rule for t0 2. Should maybe specify this doesn't apply to faily maps. 3. Currently the rule kinda bans hookfly forced parts unless someone tunes the whole map without hammer. maybe add "used to fix cheats that could easily be avoided"? 4. That's kinda not what the rule says, the rule seems to imply that puzzle maps are banned. 5. Why not say something like bug use might make it harder to get your map released but exceptions may be made for great maps that use bugs. Why say "small bug", what are the big bugs that are always banned?

Pipou

The last one isn't written down in the rules because it shouldn't be officially stated, not to encourage the use of bugs

Ah I see why not say a if these rules aren't followed the map would probably be declined but rare exceptions can be made at the testers discretion. That way you do still state that the rules don't have to be followed strictly but if not the map will probably be declined. Instead the rules clearly state the opposite: "If you want your map to be released on DDNet, you must follow these rules."

big bugs are skipping whole map

cyberFighter

big bugs are skipping whole map

No those are big skips. Skips don't always use bugs.

@Cøke no time :D?

Soapy Sandwich

1. Probably should mention it's a rule for t0 2. Should maybe specify this doesn't apply to faily maps. 3. Currently the rule kinda bans hookfly forced parts unless someone tunes the whole map without hammer. maybe add "used to fix cheats that could easily be avoided"? 4. That's kinda not what the rule says, the rule seems to imply that puzzle maps are banned. 5. Why not say something like bug use might make it harder to get your map released but exceptions may be made for great maps that use bugs. Why say "small bug", what are the big bugs that are always banned?

1. applies to all maps but the amount of space needed depends on the map and how many tees there are and how the parts are played, if you can make a tight solo map feel perfectly smooth to play then go ahead. 2. "should" suggests that it's not a strict requirement, but always welcome. 3. the rule doesn't say that you can't use special tiles at all, you need a hammer off tile to make a hookfly part, but using it to fix a cheat when the tile doesn't actually benefit the part's gameplay is bad. 4. it's not only about puzzle maps, a misleading part is for example one that coaxes you into failing, and brainy parts that use well thought through mechanics aren't confusing 5. a minor bug may be allowed if the map's main mechanic relies on it and otherwise the map is top notch, but don't get your hopes up that this will be a common occurence (edited)

How about a new category for maps that can break some of those rules?

Alexander

How about a new category for maps that can break some of those rules?

it's called DDRock

It's called another server network completely unrelated to DDNet

1. Ok so map must have space and be something testers feel is smooth to play? 2. I don't think should used like that implies it's not a strict requirement. Should: used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness. "you should do this" != "you probably should do this" 3. The turn off hammer tile doesn't affect the hookfly part's gameplay either. It is to prevent a way of cheating a hookfly part. You don't need it to prevent the cheat, you could build hookfly parts without it too. So again what does this mean? When is a special tile use not acceptable in terms of cheating parts. 4. A brainy part as far as I know is by definition a confusing part. Brainy = "Implying you need to think to solve it". The answer isn't obvious and thus can be seen as confusing. I wouldn't describe a none confusing part as a brainy part. 5. I think the rules should really state that, also what are the major bugs, the big bugs, the bugs that exploit game physics.

Soapy Sandwich

1. Ok so map must have space and be something testers feel is smooth to play? 2. I don't think should used like that implies it's not a strict requirement. Should: used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness. "you should do this" != "you probably should do this" 3. The turn off hammer tile doesn't affect the hookfly part's gameplay either. It is to prevent a way of cheating a hookfly part. You don't need it to prevent the cheat, you could build hookfly parts without it too. So again what does this mean? When is a special tile use not acceptable in terms of cheating parts. 4. A brainy part as far as I know is by definition a confusing part. Brainy = "Implying you need to think to solve it". The answer isn't obvious and thus can be seen as confusing. I wouldn't describe a none confusing part as a brainy part. 5. I think the rules should really state that, also what are the major bugs, the big bugs, the bugs that exploit game physics.

1. Most players can tell when a part is too tight to play well, not just testers 2. "Should means something that is recommended but not mandatory." 3. A way to disable hammer is needed in a part where the goal is to not use hammer. If the goal of the part is something else, but using hammer in a specific spot is a cheat, then you should fix it without a hammer off tile. 4. There is actually a difference between something that makes you think and something that is meant to straight up confuse you. Brainy parts fall back on some sort of logic that is seen in other parts or the map's mechanics. 5. I don't think there is a need to explicitly state that. If you use a bug then you will still most likely get asked to remove it or get your map declined. Any exception to the rules is at our own discretion and you can't expect that one will be made when you want it.

16:43

I hope that response satisfies you for now, since I have to go

Ravie

it's called DDRock

Dude hahaha nice one xD

Banning endless hh maps < allowing maps only for smooth brains

So all this is because a mapper got a map declined and is crying now

1. Ok so it just is about smooth to play. 2. So we must follow the rules but not this one as it's just a recommendation. 3. It sounds like you just don't want special tiles in the middle of parts to prevent skips/cheats. If I made a full part and didn't want a player to have hammer for it then adding the special tile is ok. 4. Puzzle maps are all built to confuse so they are banned unless accidentally made. 5. The rules currently state bugs may not be used. That will discourage people who haven't seen your explanation that this rule is also a recommendation from experimenting with the game while map making. Also if there are bugs that you know won't be accepted ever then why not share a list of those. You talk about shotgun bug like it is fully banned, why not also state that if it is indeed banned. I don't need a conclusive list of all bugs just ones you know mappers should avoid, that doesn't mean you have to allow bugs that aren't on the list but it's helpful to the community.

Ama

So all this is because a mapper got a map declined and is crying now

Testers got tired of thinking how to make parts so allowing only hh maps now troll

Anime.pdf

Testers got tired of thinking how to make parts so allowing only hh maps now troll

I mean testers doing gods work for ddnet . I wouldnt want to play maps before release just to play them again with the same People I tested with

Ama

So all this is because a mapper got a map declined and is crying now

Not from my side, this is a fight I started before the map was even started, I fought before my map Puzzle Partners got released. You just haven't been able to see it as I tried to handle it all in the tester channel and through messages. Turns out public displays like this get far more response than anything I posted in the tester channel. So the map in question did also play a part in the argument because I warned against this stuff ages ago but it isn't the cause at all.

Ama

I mean testers doing gods work for ddnet . I wouldnt want to play maps before release just to play them again with the same People I tested with

Some testers yes, but the tester role doesn't actually mean you test or do anything that you don't want to do. If the role had any responsibility I would agree with you but currently you aren't required to test or anything. You can simply use the role to help your friends maps get released.

17:13

That is a fight that I was having from before I was even made a tester, so also not a recent thing.

Soapy Sandwich

Some testers yes, but the tester role doesn't actually mean you test or do anything that you don't want to do. If the role had any responsibility I would agree with you but currently you aren't required to test or anything. You can simply use the role to help your friends maps get released.

Thats how it works . You go to a guy who is a tester and test the map with him untill its ready .its the fastest way to get released

17:15

It doesnt matter if he is your friend or not

Soapy Sandwich

That is a fight that I was having from before I was even made a tester, so also not a recent thing.

Some of your maps are so weird they arent even fun to play so I understand why they do what they do to prevent bugs that arent fun

17:17

Im 100% sure if you would make a map with a bug it would get released if its an easy concept and fun to play

Ama

Thats how it works . You go to a guy who is a tester and test the map with him untill its ready .its the fastest way to get released

in cryptics case ravie didnt even play the map kek

just looked at it for 5sec and declined since he had to think more than 5sec on what to do,thats why the rules had to change

Makes a huge difference if he is your friend XD This also is a terrible system cause it leads to spamming testers. A simple system would be better and prevent this stupid favouritism.

Well it aint a coincidence that good mappers befriend testers xd

Soapy Sandwich

Makes a huge difference if he is your friend XD This also is a terrible system cause it leads to spamming testers. A simple system would be better and prevent this stupid favouritism.

There is like 1 map made a day how does it lead to spamming testers

Ama

Im 100% sure if you would make a map with a bug it would get released if its an easy concept and fun to play

I actually cant tell any of your maps apart,especially the brutals/insanes where you just need 40tees to actually not do the map and just skip the whole thing

I made brutal and insane maps ?

Do you mean amol?

oh Amol

17:22

nvm Ama is the good mapper

bro didn't do his research

1

1

My maps are absolute crap compared to what is released As mod 1-3 star right now

17:23

Most of my maps lack flow due to adding some part that is annoying somewhere

Ama

Some of your maps are so weird they arent even fun to play so I understand why they do what they do to prevent bugs that arent fun

I am sorry you don't find them fun. I often tell people that they aren't for everyone. Although some people do love my maps and they are the small communities I make maps for. If you try build maps that are different or interesting then it obviously won't be for everyone. Don't see how they relate to the argument.

Soapy Sandwich

I am sorry you don't find them fun. I often tell people that they aren't for everyone. Although some people do love my maps and they are the small communities I make maps for. If you try build maps that are different or interesting then it obviously won't be for everyone. Don't see how they relate to the argument.

If you dont see how they relate to the arguement you are looking at the issue from a wrong angle

Soapy Sandwich is a good mapper and his maps are fun, please make Target 2

Alexander

Soapy Sandwich is a good mapper and his maps are fun, please make Target 2

Sorry bro not gonna build maps anymore kinda over this testing community.

Ama

My maps are absolute crap compared to what is released As mod 1-3 star right now

the different map series you made were definitely interesting and inspired some other mappers to build off of your ideas

Soapy Sandwich

Sorry bro not gonna build maps anymore kinda over this testing community.

I understand but you don't have to stop mapping because of this bullshit, just don't release to DDNet

Alexander

I understand but you don't have to stop mapping because of this bullshit, just don't release to DDNet

The thing is he probably can still make all the maps he wants to make because he is a good mapper

Yeah but the new rules are gonna kill a lot of creativity and maybe he was planning on making more fun maps that use different mechanics that are just not gonna fit into the new rules anymore (edited)

Ama

Some of your maps are so weird they arent even fun to play so I understand why they do what they do to prevent bugs that arent fun

100% my fault for some of those maps,when I find something weird in other maps I ask soapy to make a whole map out of it justatest

Alexander

I understand but you don't have to stop mapping because of this bullshit, just don't release to DDNet

Guess my maps go to DDRock now XD see you there XD

Yeah it's sad to hear that they would have you go to another server network rather than just host your maps on ddnet

17:37

I mean you got other categories like oldschool and ddmax so I don't see why there can't be another with different types of rules

Alexander

I mean you got other categories like oldschool and ddmax so I don't see why there can't be another with different types of rules

thats called Fun category

We are talking about serious maps that could give you points

9gates seem like a serious map that couldve been in solo

9gates is the most unserious map that I know of

17:40

You are just picking what seems to be random places to go over and over again

you can bruteforce any puzzle if you try hard and long enough

It is an interesting puzzle and can be solved relatively easily if you know how it works.

NovaShock

you can bruteforce any puzzle if you try hard and long enough

i disagree

that is fine

NovaShock

you can bruteforce any puzzle if you try hard and long enough

that's like saying you can beat any map if you try hard and long enough

thats what every teeworlds map feels like to me

Alexander

that's like saying you can beat any map if you try hard and long enough

Thats how playing works??????

17:58

XD

Yes and that's exactly why I don't understand what they meant by it

What

17:59

Yes me too

ravie nailing his 7 theses to the church of deen

Let's try to avoid the Thirty Years' War

Ok will avoid building a time machine and instead focus on this fight.