DDraceNetwork - mapping

@Ravie Parts can't use bugs that exploit game physics.

19:51

does this mean we may never make any maps like broken brain anymore? where you need to know the speeder bug to be able to finish the map?

1

19:51

Gameplay can't be intentionally misleading or confusing.

19:54

does this mean any maps like oco,justice,puzzle partners,brainduck may never be made again?

oco doesn't abuse physics

its intentionally misleading

it's an april fools map

rules dont matter for an april fools map then? I understand now

19:56

we can release Cryptic as an april fools map :)

what would the joke be then? how unfun it is?

apparently we can release any map for april fools since the rules dont matter then

NovaShock

does this mean any maps like oco,justice,puzzle partners,brainduck may never be made again?

whats the verdict for these types of maps

NovaShock

does this mean any maps like oco,justice,puzzle partners,brainduck may never be made again?

yes, that is correct

1

thanks for making the official rules where we cant make any puzzle maps anymore where we actually have to use more than 1braincell to be able to play

you can make puzzle maps that comply with the rules

guess ddnet will only release repetitive t0 hh maps or barren copy pastes in the future

you just can't use bugs and need to make proper mechanics

why would you want to stop people using creative bugs that a lot of people are already familiar with and that we can use in different ways

because using bugs is not clean level design, and also if we never stop allowing them then it will never be possible to fix them in the future either

can you please make a clear list of what counts as a "bug" since it can literally mean anything in ddnet

a lot of teeworlds bugs are so well known that they are now features

20:12

i think it would help to explain what is meant by bugs so mappers have a proper way to know what is and isn't allowed

ye we really dont want to waste time on maps just to be told "it uses a bug,declined"

Ravie

because using bugs is not clean level design, and also if we never stop allowing them then it will never be possible to fix them in the future either

does this also mean that you would remove maps that already use bugs if you do intend on fixing those or would it be allowed to make a map that uses a bug that an already existing map uses also

tbh using speedups at all in a map allows you to abuse the physics of the game so I guess those arent allowed

Alexander

does this also mean that you would remove maps that already use bugs if you do intend on fixing those or would it be allowed to make a map that uses a bug that an already existing map uses also

i think old maps can be tweaked to keep the old physics so they can still fix problems

NovaShock

can you please make a clear list of what counts as a "bug" since it can literally mean anything in ddnet

it's specifically about stuff that abuses physics, so any tricks normally possible in the game are fine (edited)

NovaShock

ye we really dont want to waste time on maps just to be told "it uses a bug,declined"

Unless the map relies on a single bug, it wouldn't be declined lol

Damn I was about to post unfunny meme about "confusing" rule and puzzle maps but nova already said everything

You don't decline a map because it uses/has a bug

20:23

You ask the mapper to edit it, to remove the bug

1

Pipou

Unless the map relies on a single bug, it wouldn't be declined lol

it will still be helpful if we could get a list of what actually counts to clearly tell us what is and what isn't allowed

imagine relying on bugs to make puzzling parts saddo

1) rip claustrophobic theme (whatever i suppose) 2) fair 3) rip insane maps and funi brutal parts 4) rip exanimus 5) sorta fair (if your part only works with a ton of shit maybe its not good) 6) fuck all puzzle maps 7) troll

1

well then is it really a puzzle if it just usses a known bug

if i made a map that used this will it be fair game?

that looks like hell for anyone over 50 ping

its literally just a door

20:28

you just cant see it anymore

i meant if prediction breaks

NovaShock

you just cant see it anymore

ok lal then whats the point

What will happen to older maps that use speed related exploits? Not trying to stir things up just curious

FJP

What will happen to older maps that use speed related exploits? Not trying to stir things up just curious

nothing

1

louis

ok lal then whats the point

im trying to figure out what "bugs" can be used and not used and it seems no one wants to give a clear answer

that falls under intentionally misleading anyways

all the rules will just collapse on each other when you give answers like that

we discussed making it a lot more specific

NovaShock

it will still be helpful if we could get a list of what actually counts to clearly tell us what is and what isn't allowed

I understand you, but you must know that it's complicated to answer precisely right now, not because there is a huge list of bugs but because season 2 implied to have physics changes, changes that we may see in the near future anyway. Would you want a list of the bugs that aren't tolerated (or those tolerated) right now and get your map deleted when those physics changes arrive ?

but then someone will find some new "bug" that doesnt fall under any of the existing rules

20:31

nd then spend 2 weeks trying to justify it in a channel

Pipou

I understand you, but you must know that it's complicated to answer precisely right now, not because there is a huge list of bugs but because season 2 implied to have physics changes, changes that we may see in the near future anyway. Would you want a list of the bugs that aren't tolerated (or those tolerated) right now and get your map deleted when those physics changes arrive ?

but old maps can just be tweaked to still keep the old physics?

20:33

problem is finding those maps

If they can't be finished anymore or if it affects the gameplay, they'd have to be edited and reset (edited)

20:34

I had the idea to re-release every map, one by one

1

20:35

(to fix them)

Pipou

I understand you, but you must know that it's complicated to answer precisely right now, not because there is a huge list of bugs but because season 2 implied to have physics changes, changes that we may see in the near future anyway. Would you want a list of the bugs that aren't tolerated (or those tolerated) right now and get your map deleted when those physics changes arrive ?

if those physics changes ever arrived how would you find all the maps that used them for rank1's and for normal gameplay anyway?

That's why season 2 was the greatest opportunity

20:38

We can't do anything about old maps for now, but we can for today's maps

20:39

To limit the obnoxious work that is ahead, but necessary

if we had the list of bugs then it will also help for todays maps and when someone discovers something new then it can be added later to help everyone trying to make maps

20:40

im being annoying right now so that a repeat of Cryptic doesnt happen with every new map that tries something new (edited)

as long as you're not trying to use really buggy stuff in parts you'll be just fine

NovaShock

im being annoying right now so that a repeat of Cryptic doesnt happen with every new map that tries something new (edited)

It's fine to have questions

I'll see what I can do

20:44

To make sure I don't forget some, you can ask me about specific bugs you are using for example, or that you know of

NovaShock

if i made a map that used this will it be fair game?

is discuss before https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/1194

Visual bug if laser blocker is placed in door range · Issue #1194 ·...

Door isn't properly displayed, but still working:

NovaShock

if i made a map that used this will it be fair game?

yes because we can tell you to make the door visible if there are no other problems

1

Pipou

To make sure I don't forget some, you can ask me about specific bugs you are using for example, or that you know of

it would be good to ask @Skystrife since he is very knowledgeable about all different kinds of bugs in the game and would be better to give examples since he tries out every variable he can think of when he discovers something new

I'll ask him to make a list for me then greenthing

1

Just to be clear you can't blame us, or complain, if a bug you use isn't in the list but that is forbidden nonetheless @NovaShock

21:04

Or blame Skystrife greenthing

Pipou

Just to be clear you can't blame us, or complain, if a bug you use isn't in the list but that is forbidden nonetheless @NovaShock

then we just add it so the next mapper doesnt run into the same problem kek

Ravie

you can make puzzle maps that comply with the rules

Just as long as your puzzle map is clear and doesn't confuse anyone. So great puzzles like jump over this gap and hook this wall to climb up are still perfectly acceptable.

Ravie

because using bugs is not clean level design, and also if we never stop allowing them then it will never be possible to fix them in the future either

clean level design = Maps Ravie likes. In case there was confusion there.

Ravie

it's specifically about stuff that abuses physics, so any tricks normally possible in the game are fine (edited)

I took the time to make a list of physics abusing bugs: 1. Shotgun bug (Real no no on this one) 2. Any other speed gaining bug from stacked tees 3. Running into other tees while they shotgun you to gain speed 4. Reaching any speed that slows your tee down 5. Moving too far into stoppers 6. Falling through doors or other tiles 7. Ninja stacking 8. Shotgun the floor to gain speed 9. Shotgun a wall to gain speed in the wrong direction 10. Weak hook allowing falling in stoppers 11. Downward speed flying 12. Freeze Hammer 13. Weak weapons in freeze when lasered 14. Explosive bullets only hitting one target 15. Speeder upward launching bug. 16. Tp gun through corner bug. 17. Double tp touches 18. Touching tiles/weapons on the otherside of tp 19. Gaining/Losing speed by moving left or right in upward speeders. 20. Magic edge 21. Weak bounce or strong bounce, one of them is a bug. 22. Weak hook cause that's clearly the worse one. If anyone can think of any other mechanics that made this game interesting and unique please let us know so we can add them to the ban list.

soapy i think u are going a little too far now xd

Soapy Sandwich

Just as long as your puzzle map is clear and doesn't confuse anyone. So great puzzles like jump over this gap and hook this wall to climb up are still perfectly acceptable.

ive seen a lot of parts where you need to use brain yet don't use unintended physics

23:51

see: corneum maps, a lot of 4p maps

Soapy Sandwich

I took the time to make a list of physics abusing bugs: 1. Shotgun bug (Real no no on this one) 2. Any other speed gaining bug from stacked tees 3. Running into other tees while they shotgun you to gain speed 4. Reaching any speed that slows your tee down 5. Moving too far into stoppers 6. Falling through doors or other tiles 7. Ninja stacking 8. Shotgun the floor to gain speed 9. Shotgun a wall to gain speed in the wrong direction 10. Weak hook allowing falling in stoppers 11. Downward speed flying 12. Freeze Hammer 13. Weak weapons in freeze when lasered 14. Explosive bullets only hitting one target 15. Speeder upward launching bug. 16. Tp gun through corner bug. 17. Double tp touches 18. Touching tiles/weapons on the otherside of tp 19. Gaining/Losing speed by moving left or right in upward speeders. 20. Magic edge 21. Weak bounce or strong bounce, one of them is a bug. 22. Weak hook cause that's clearly the worse one. If anyone can think of any other mechanics that made this game interesting and unique please let us know so we can add them to the ban list.

ngl pretty usefull i saved the list

2

NovaShock

it would be good to ask @Skystrife since he is very knowledgeable about all different kinds of bugs in the game and would be better to give examples since he tries out every variable he can think of when he discovers something new

Ravie already said we can't use Skystrife for testing, his skills aren't needed what we need.

louis

ive seen a lot of parts where you need to use brain yet don't use unintended physics

Banned by gameplay rule: Gameplay can't be intentionally misleading or confusing. Brain parts must be simplified to not be confusing.

1

Soapy Sandwich

I took the time to make a list of physics abusing bugs: 1. Shotgun bug (Real no no on this one) 2. Any other speed gaining bug from stacked tees 3. Running into other tees while they shotgun you to gain speed 4. Reaching any speed that slows your tee down 5. Moving too far into stoppers 6. Falling through doors or other tiles 7. Ninja stacking 8. Shotgun the floor to gain speed 9. Shotgun a wall to gain speed in the wrong direction 10. Weak hook allowing falling in stoppers 11. Downward speed flying 12. Freeze Hammer 13. Weak weapons in freeze when lasered 14. Explosive bullets only hitting one target 15. Speeder upward launching bug. 16. Tp gun through corner bug. 17. Double tp touches 18. Touching tiles/weapons on the otherside of tp 19. Gaining/Losing speed by moving left or right in upward speeders. 20. Magic edge 21. Weak bounce or strong bounce, one of them is a bug. 22. Weak hook cause that's clearly the worse one. If anyone can think of any other mechanics that made this game interesting and unique please let us know so we can add them to the ban list.

1. unintended 2. unintended 3. unintended 4. unintended 5. expected behavior 6. technically expected but there's no reason to use this over a better speed checking method, and it looks buggy 7. this isnt really problematic in itself but it often is used for other stacking bugs 8. technically expected behavior, it doesn't make too much sense but it's also very accepted anyways, and once you think about it it makes sense 9. not sure what you mean but probably same with 8 10. this bug is just dumb 11. funny but doesn't belong in an actual part since its unintended 12. intended 13. weak bug category, unintended 14. unintended 15. unintended 16. dont think this is a bug but its annoying to play a part like this 17. similar to 6. 18. same with 6. 19. not certain on how this one works so can't say, but this move isn't fun imo 20. its fun imo 21. remove weak 22. remove weak

Soapy Sandwich

Banned by gameplay rule: Gameplay can't be intentionally misleading or confusing. Brain parts must be simplified to not be confusing.

yeah good point i'd reword it to intentionally misleading and obfuscating or just intentionally misleading

23:59

obfuscating to the point where it's hard to read the part