DDraceNetwork - general

I Bugged the map :)

03:16

Sorah nice one

belt

Brokecdx-

anyway to turn of running animation

someone has an answer for this? :/

I.K.U

someone has an answer for this? :/

downgrade

well i will be stuck in 16.3 forever

sucks to be you

1

sucks to change the tee

sucks to also remove the freeze stars, the ninja sword in freeze, the original HUD, etc. (edited)

the run animation is still too slow

07:52

looks really unrealistic

oh yea i should fix that

https://youtu.be/MCFEYHoxUUc?t=38 here a reference from the fastest human

hazim307

USAIN BOLT9.58 s BERLIN GERMANY 9,58 s 100m NEW 2009 World Record HD

Voxel

sucks to also remove the freeze stars, the ninja sword in freeze, the original HUD, etc. (edited)

i dont care about changes until it changes how the tee acts

Voxel

Click to see attachment 🖼️

lmao

just make an option to disable it and no one will cry

1

ok? ask heinrich for that

07:54

he straight up told me to not have that as an option

07:54

if it wasnt for that interception itd still be in

@heinrich5991 maybe we should change the idea of less config again... it simply doesn't work out. I prefer to have config options than 10000 ppl using ddnet 9, just so that you can say we need to have downward compability

1

07:56

or just force the ppl to get used to it

07:57

but ppl sticking on old clients is just stupid from a lot of perspectives

idk i might actually try and tweak the running animation a tiny bit. i just dont know how to do it properly with the way its hardbaked into the code

07:59

and im too unexperienced to make something that supports this live

Jupstar ✪

@heinrich5991 maybe we should change the idea of less config again... it simply doesn't work out. I prefer to have config options than 10000 ppl using ddnet 9, just so that you can say we need to have downward compability

Maybe a group of config options we provide no guarantees of support for. We'd try not to break them but combinations of them might not ever be tested (edited)

wdym 10000 people using ddnet 9

no one likes change now so they might as well use the ancient version

Learath2

Maybe a group of config options we provide no guarantees of support for. We'd try not to break them but combinations of them might not ever be tested (edited)

in this case its more about disabling animations isnt it, but anyway, when we have this discussion every time a new version releases now

08:14

either make the animations much better (rise the quality) or let user decide

08:14

but just letting them use old versions cannot be the solution

Voxel

sucks to also remove the freeze stars, the ninja sword in freeze, the original HUD, etc. (edited)

Improving things that original ddrace devs improvised using tw assets (frozen tees, ddrace hud, spec animation) is not the same as changing core teeworlds things just for the sake of it

idk i thought itd be nice

Jupstar ✪

in this case its more about disabling animations isnt it, but anyway, when we have this discussion every time a new version releases now

Notice it's the same handful of people that complain about every single thing. Realistically the tee sitting or the tee running with a new animation doesn't change shit about gameplay

Learath2

Notice it's the same handful of people that complain about every single thing. Realistically the tee sitting or the tee running with a new animation doesn't change shit about gameplay

i understand that, but to me the animations look too bad, no hate to voxel

08:16

it looks like its done in 10minutes

I think we take stats about versions every once in a while and most people seem to trail at most 3 minor versions behind

make it configurable until its in a state where it looks good enough

08:17

in the freezebar rework i still find it weird that we still use the ninja skin, also looks unfinished. its not even that i dislike the new freezebar or smth

08:18

it simply looks unfinished, so we change from something bad(old state) to smth unfinished

Doesn't matter how good it looks. There will always be some people that just don't like any change at all. It's just part of the development cycle

1

i didnt know how else to do it

08:18

did i ruin ddnet monkalaugh

Learath2

Doesn't matter how good it looks. There will always be some people that just don't like any change at all. It's just part of the development cycle

yes it matters a lot

1

08:19

a well made run animation improves the game

08:19

a semi tested run animation makes the game uglier

ill fix it tommorow

08:19

or try

Voxel

did i ruin ddnet monkalaugh

Anyone who ever made a commit ruined ddnet, dw

Voxel

no one likes change now so they might as well use the ancient version

just use 0.5

animation is hard when there is no visual guide to it

Jupstar ✪

yes it matters a lot

But at the end of the day, the same people won't like it just because it's different. So if the end result for those people is the same, we haven't improved the situation with people sticking to older versions, no?

türk varmı

Learath2

But at the end of the day, the same people won't like it just because it's different. So if the end result for those people is the same, we haven't improved the situation with people sticking to older versions, no?

but then we can still say we force the ppl to use it

08:21

bcs its simply a matter of getting used to it

I don't see a reason to change the run animation when it looks how teeworlds devs intended, we also don't make random changes in the gameskin to make it "look better", I'm all for adding assets and animations for ddrace stuff that doesn't have them yet tho

Ravie

I don't see a reason to change the run animation when it looks how teeworlds devs intended, we also don't make random changes in the gameskin to make it "look better", I'm all for adding assets and animations for ddrace stuff that doesn't have them yet tho

I don't see a reason to change the main menu when it looks how teeworlds devs intended

so no replacing the images?

Learath2

I don't see a reason to change the main menu when it looks how teeworlds devs intended

didn't it get changed recently to exactly how it is in 0.7?

Are we not allowed to touch anything the holy teeworlds devs ordained as the one and only truth?

1

lol

08:24

ddnet is its own game by now

good morning btw

drop tw support when (edited)

Ravie

didn't it get changed recently to exactly how it is in 0.7?

Those are fake teeworlds devs, usurper Oy is changing what matricks intended. It's blasphemy

ye

hi enrich

drop support for 0.7

What's teeworlds

idk

Jupstar ✪

@heinrich5991 maybe we should change the idea of less config again... it simply doesn't work out. I prefer to have config options than 10000 ppl using ddnet 9, just so that you can say we need to have downward compability

providing no support doesn't work. we also provide support for people disabling cl_http_map_download

murpi

What's teeworlds

heinrich5991

providing no support doesn't work. we also provide support for people disabling cl_http_map_download

yes, disable the support for all old clients and ppl will upgrade... simple fact

08:26

accept it or not, but its the truth

@Jupstar ✪ do we even have a problem with old clients?

Anyway, I think I'm okay with adding a group of config options that if you touch we are not providing any support at all

that simply doesn't work. people will come here and ask why their client is broken

heinrich5991

@Jupstar ✪ do we even have a problem with old clients?

yes, we holding back refactors in bigger style for them

we will try to figure it out

08:27

I mean "do we even have larger amounts of players playing old versions"

no i always ask "are you on latest client?" if not i dont give support

heinrich5991

that simply doesn't work. people will come here and ask why their client is broken

We give them a script that checks if any of those options are touched, if they are they can just delete or figure it out themselves

and i bet 99,99% would upgrade

maybe remove a bunch of obscure old configs and instead add a few for the new features

the config options also "hold back refactors in bigger style"

Ravie

@deen wouldn't the mapper search make more sense on https://ddnet.tw/releases/ ?

Done

we can maybe have some sv_ui_version accepting few versions

heinrich5991

the config options also "hold back refactors in bigger style"

yes but its easier to replace them in future then if we lost the ppl already

Or maybe how about a button in settings that resets all advanced options?

less support, bcs they only upgrade from one version to another

08:28

not from ddnet9 or smth

08:28

anyway my point here is really more, we add features, half finished

08:28

and call it a day

08:29

and thats just unacceptable to me

heinrich5991

we can maybe have some sv_ui_version accepting few versions

I think when we proposed that people wanted finer grained control

this is the whole range of options they have wrt. using old clients

08:29

they can ask some modder to add more options

08:29

AFAIK the tater client has more options

Jupstar ✪

anyway my point here is really more, we add features, half finished

do you have examples for features like this?

heinrich5991

do you have examples for features like this?

i explained above, the animations look really unfinished

08:30

the freeze isnt 100% finished

The old freeze was 0% finished. With the bar it's now 50% finished

Learath2

The old freeze was 0% finished. With the bar it's now 50% finished

yes

08:31

so add a config until its 95% finsihed

08:31

and then force the ppl to upgrade

I think it was a big improvement

bcs then its an definite improvement

08:32

and for animations i have to say, they are simply not good enough

08:32

this is not an upgrade

I honestly very very much doubt the amount of improvement a feature brings has anything to do with people sticking to ddnet 9 for a decade

it doesnt look like the tee is sitting, and nobody runs with feet so slow

Learath2

I honestly very very much doubt the amount of improvement a feature brings has anything to do with people sticking to ddnet 9 for a decade

yes

08:32

we also have to stop supporting old versions

08:32

and don't hold back on skins not allowed being indexed and stuff

we have a backward compatible option to do that now

we wouldnt need that if we wouldnt support outdated clients

heinrich5991

we have a backward compatible option to do that now

No, that's the bad part. You've allowed old versions to still work

1

also supporting old clients means taking responsibility

08:34

and thats something i defs wouldnt want to do for old versions

I'd honestly just have a window of compatibility. Anything within 1 major version

yes ofc

08:34

i dont say delete all clients at once

@Voxel Recoil animation when: https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/295908390956433410/1021284867117424661

but defs not 10 years of compability

murpi

@Voxel Recoil animation when: https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/295908390956433410/1021284867117424661

theres already one

murpi

@Voxel Recoil animation when: https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/295908390956433410/1021284867117424661

He needs to lay low for a while, the council of elders is after him for his sins of desecrating ddnet

what elders

:cybersponge:

The ddnetmafia, people with ranks on Insane maps

Learath2

He needs to lay low for a while, the council of elders is after him for his sins of desecrating ddnet

Just tell them not to update

08:36

hih

i mean i could take on elderly people

1

They got to me, that's why I haven't made any significant patches in 2 years

tbh i would have focused more on the running anim if half my energy wasnt wasted on a manual sit button (edited)

08:37

you know who you are (edited)

i played tw since i was like 7 years old and i dont have any problems with the running

well i want to try and make it look nicer

cyberFighter

i played tw since i was like 7 years old and i dont have any problems with the running

well when i look at how kirby runs, it looks smoother to me

i havent been able to buy a kirby game so i havent seen him run

1

08:39

but i dont think he can run as fast

he doesn't run, he suc

cyberFighter

i played tw since i was like 7 years old and i dont have any problems with the running

Excuse me, why do you have a positive opinion about a feature? You are an old player, act like it

I also like the new animations

Learath2

Excuse me, why do you have a positive opinion about a feature? You are an old player, act like it

my newbie friend likes them

can i try to tweak it at least? i feel like i can do better

yes, please

just to be clear i dont dislike them generally, but i dont find them good enough

I think the feet don't really hit the ground at the proper timings, but I fail to see how it's worse than the old one just spazzing around lol

the running is weird tho

cyberFighter

the running is weird tho

exactly

but i dont hate it

sitting simply isnt sitting, running is more like flying over the ground while chilling ur feet xd

Just remove the feet, we rolling now

murpi

Just remove the feet, we rolling now

murpi

Just remove the feet, we rolling now

@keb i get the reference

if the body rotates the eyes rotate weird

Lets do a rolling animation for april 1st

08:42

how do u rotate the shadow then

procedrial shadow

We don't, the sun is also rotating around at the exact same speed the tee is rotating around

tbh smart shadows would be cool. tho each tee would need a "normal map"

sounds a bit better than the last april fools

08:44

where every single map became cheatable

Mirrored maps were an excellent event also ruined by the council of elders

08:44

Sadge

no they became cheatable

08:44

thats why it got ruined

Voxel

tbh smart shadows would be cool. tho each tee would need a "normal map"

yes would be cool indeed, but we still support gl 1.x

08:45

so this is just a dream

cyberFighter

no they became cheatable

I don't even remember what became cheatable. The people crying about how it absolutely ruined the game wiped my memory of the actual day

rip

08:45

why not update it?

Learath2

I don't even remember what became cheatable. The people crying about how it absolutely ruined the game wiped my memory of the actual day

the flip tool just broke the offbound tiles

Ah the edge tiles

Voxel

why not update it?

gl 1.x?

08:46

Voxel

why not update it?

Ddnet has to support toasters

ah

can we have an update removing the border tool

would be nice to remove all the trash backends: ogl 1.x, 2.x, 3.0

08:47

they are just bloat xD

08:47

especially 2.x and 3.0

I honestly don't know how people still have computers that dont support gl33 atleast. The oldest gpu I have in this house still supports gl4

was a stupid mistake by me

Learath2

I honestly don't know how people still have computers that dont support gl33 atleast. The oldest gpu I have in this house still supports gl4

yeah similar

doesnt ogl cut off tiles weirdly

1.x yes

And it is old, like a 5950 iirc

Jupstar ✪

especially 2.x and 3.0

so why not remove

bcs someone now uses one of each

08:48

intel on windows is bugged for ogl 3.3

One of 2.x or 3.0 should stay. 1.x renders wrong

wow that 1 person using it

cyberFighter

wow that 1 person using it

tbh i am still not sure if i would just drop this 1 person or care

08:49

i understand that it sucks to just drop this 1 person

08:49

but on the other hand it also annoying to care about these 1%

@Jupstar ✪ make the next update silently switch people's configs to vulkan troll

and in the version after that remove everything else

Also I can't prove it but I'm 80% sure we are doing something wrong in the intel case. How on earth are we hitting a driver bug when rendering a couple balls and a handful of quads is beyond me

cyberFighter

wow that 1 person using it

so the solution is make ddnet great, so intel, amd & nvidia have to care about making no driver bugs then drop all except vulkan... perfect

Ravie

@Jupstar ✪ make the next update silently switch people's configs to vulkan troll

and in the version after that remove everything else

ppl with amd drivers:

dropping support for people's hardware is sad to me. the hardware can run the game

1 million players

08:50

and they have to care

do we have a minimal reproducing exmaple of the driver bugs btw?

Learath2

Also I can't prove it but I'm 80% sure we are doing something wrong in the intel case. How on earth are we hitting a driver bug when rendering a couple balls and a handful of quads is beyond me

These machines usually run entire AAA games without issue

Voxel

ppl with amd drivers:

vulkan works great on amd

i had a bug with amd where all of the colors broke

08:51

how can we be sure that it's a driver bug and not some undefined behavior we rely on?

which is bugged then

tbh i am confident that the vulkan backend works for around 99% of all ppl that have a GPU that support vulkan the rest could theoretically fall back to ogl 3.3 (except the very few ppl with very old computers)

isnt vulkan made by amd

heinrich5991

how can we be sure that it's a driver bug and not some undefined behavior we rely on?

I don't think we can. That's why I'm skeptical. But reproducing these issues is also beyond our reach, so no way for me to prove my hypothesis

cyberFighter

isnt vulkan made by amd

the idea is from amd yeah

08:52

but vulkan itself is developed out of that idea

oh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)

Mantle (API)

Mantle was a low-overhead rendering API targeted at 3D video games. AMD originally developed Mantle in cooperation with DICE, starting in 2013. Mantle was designed as an alternative to Direct3D and OpenGL, primarily for use on personal computers, although Mantle supports the GPUs present in the PlayStation 4 and in the Xbox One. In 2015, Mantle'...

08:53

"Mantle's public development was suspended and in 2019 completely discontinued, as DirectX 12 and the Mantle-derived Vulkan rose in popularity"

Learath2

I don't think we can. That's why I'm skeptical. But reproducing these issues is also beyond our reach, so no way for me to prove my hypothesis

reproducing it is beyond our reach because we don't have the hardware?

08:54

or why?

heinrich5991

reproducing it is beyond our reach because we don't have the hardware?

Yes, if it is UB it seems most vendors define it in some sane way we expect

08:55

Sane-ish. So we'd probably need the exact same igpu to check

can I get some list of known-broken GPUs that I can look out for to check?

08:56

I think a friend of mine had a problem resolvable by "just switch to vulkan"

heinrich5991

can I get some list of known-broken GPUs that I can look out for to check?

I think we have a blacklist inside the client that forces a fallback

heinrich5991

how can we be sure that it's a driver bug and not some undefined behavior we rely on?

well if nvidia, amd and software renderers work, then u can be pretty sure its rather a driver bug. also how do you imagine a UB on a GPU exactly?

08:56

especially in OpenGL

UB in the sense of "not specified by the spec what happens here"

well but what should this UB cause?

wrong numbers

OpenGL should™️ never crash during a render

wrong video output

only if u e.g. upload wrong pointers

is that so?

heinrich5991

wrong video output

ok but did we have this?

Jupstar ✪

ok but did we have this?

We do in some cases. In the overlays e.g.

If you encounter crashes or other visual bugs, please try these steps first:

i mean we had some weird green stripes with intel, but they were fixed after a driver update

heinrich5991

If you encounter crashes or other visual bugs, please try these steps first:

for the visual bugs, it only happened on old hardware

08:58

and is related to 2d array textures

08:58

which were first introduced in opengl 3.0

08:58

so maybe the extension for it is simply broken

Learath2

We do in some cases. In the overlays e.g.

ok but srsly

08:58

these overlays are probs never tested on opengl

08:59

bcs nobody cares about opengl on windows

i have a bug where when i have 2 clients open one of them starts flashing white

i imagein it like this: razer manager: "We need to show how awesome our tool is. can we get an overlay over all games in existing?" worker: "there is this open source project with 5 stars on github, that's never been tested, should we use it?" "OHH YEAH"

and every single time my eyes get fried

e.g. mangohud itself claims that it doesnt support all vulkan features, so might not always work

09:00

thats even a pretty widely used tool

It is possible they just don't work properly with opengl at all. It's just an example of a rare bug we've hit

the good thing about vulkan is, that is has validation layers

The igpu's that end up crashing. What are we doing that makes them crash even? Do they have completely broken opengl implementations? We don't use any of the fancier features, not like tees have tessellated hair

if we run UB, it either hasnt implement that layer yet or the layer should trigger when we do stupid stuff

Learath2

The igpu's that end up crashing. What are we doing that makes them crash even? Do they have completely broken opengl implementations? We don't use any of the fancier features, not like tees have tessellated hair

u mean the intel driver bug?