DDraceNetwork - mapping

ok so big box in the sky

00:00

you tp there for logic

00:00

if you set it to a solid color of tiles with high priority, the player doesn't experience the jarring change of movement

00:00

but the color change is too abrupt

00:01

better to mimic the BG style in front of game layers so you just see the BG

00:01

but ofc getting a quad to show only in one location and STILL HAVE PARA seems hard (edited)

00:01

or maybe shouldn't be para idk...

00:03

i guess it could have para X only

00:03

but that might be more distracting I DONT KNOW just a screenshot of background i guess

I think that mapping with entities is ok

00:05

But tiles would do they same same thing after some modifications

00:05

And be better

00:05

Because multiple layers

lynn

i guess it could have para X only

idk if its possilbe with para

But yeah, for now mapping with entities might be a better option for some maps

00:06

Most of mast actually i think

pilonpl

Because multiple layers

multiple layers != better

00:06

idk where you are getting this

It is always better to have more options

multiple layers are good for design layers

entities is strictly better since you can map with replacements

?

can only do that if you select all ur tile layers

pilonpl

It is always better to have more options

no, i would rather be able to quickly replace an unhook with a hookable without thinking about what layer is selected. I think many will agree with this

I am pretty sure tile layers can do all the same things and more

00:08

That's all i wanted to say

what more can they do exactly?

Thank you for coming on my ted talk

you can already select all game layers if you want similar functionality

Wellz you can select all layers

that's not "more"

00:10

entities allows you to grab any tile as a brush

00:10

entities allows you to make quick replacements in game layer and front layer

lynn

what more can they do exactly?

Aren't limited to only one layer (you can't have more than one game layer)

why do you need more than one game layer? stacked solids are not allowed in testing

00:12

let me put it this way

00:13

if you can't map it using entities, how do you expect it to "work" with a combination of decorative tiles

Sure, you don't need multiple game layers but you need multiple tile layers

it still needs to become entities to be playable

Yes

pilonpl

Sure, you don't need multiple game layers but you need multiple tile layers

yes, a limitation of tile layers :D

No?

00:14

That's literally a feature

would be nice to automap using one layer/image for all game layer tbh

You can have a layer for a cave a layer for some indoors or something

then you don't have to fiddle with a million layers for everything

00:14

that's midground

00:14

not entities

1

lynn

would be nice to automap using one layer/image for all game layer tbh

For some people/maps maybe yes

00:15

Sure

im still confused by your point that "tile layers have more options"

00:15

you have to map them to entities eventually

Yes

you don't get additional editing benefits

They don't add any gameplay related stuff

00:16

That's true

so what exactly are you arguing?

00:16

you said before it's better to map with tiles first?

But i think it's more convenient for decorating

so what are you saying? you map deco WHILE TESTING? and if you change a part you have to MOVE THE DECO?? XDDD

00:17

we were talking about mapping tile layers then entities before

00:17

what happened to that

For know i think that both methods are useful

you can't get deco without tile layers

00:17

ofc you use them

00:17

but you do it at the end always

00:18

because doodads go in air tiles

00:18

or on solids

00:18

if you change entities at all your deco is fucked

00:18

it doesn't even matter if you map tile layer first in this case

Maybe ill just make a huge message explaining my opinion (edited)

deco always happens at the end

00:19

ur opinion has not once made sense to me xD

00:19

which is why i want to understand

That's because i am bad at explaining stuff

you cannot possibly have a quicker/better time editing than mapping entities first

00:19

since entities are literally the map

But yes, i do think using game entities only is a viable option

you do not magically get "more options" mapping with tile layers first

00:20

since they have to map to entities later anyway

00:20

no, your argument was that you have more options to edit the map doing tile layer first

Yes

00:21

I mean

00:21

It gives a little bit more options when decorating afterwards

00:21

I think

it gives LESS options because you have to remove it all if you change the map even 1%

00:22

only deco after

00:22

not during testing

No?

ravie

00:22

help me

I don't have to remove anything

I last checked discord 2h ago and @lynn is still going

I literally edit the "decoration"

im gonna explode dude

Which is not a decoration just yet

what's up

every time you reload the map, ya gotta make entities out of whatever you changed for tile layers. that's just more clicks. you are not saving time. you do not have "more features"

00:23

i do not know what else to say at this point rly

00:24

ravie they keep saying tile layers first has more features or something

00:24

or faster xD (edited)

if you're not making the map in entities first I can't take you seriously as a mapper

thank

00:25

you

00:25

Ravie

if you're not making the map in entities first I can't take you seriously as a mapper

finally someone says it

I HAVE SAID IT

00:26

i just have a purple name

00:26

so he doesn't believe me or something xD

but tbh someone made a feature that encourages people to use this backwards ass approach

yes

putting entities over design layers xD

ravie how do you feel about autofiller in editor

00:26

as layer option

automatically*

yes

Ravie

but tbh someone made a feature that encourages people to use this backwards ass approach

someone made it beause there was no show entities ingame so it made sense to have it

so you can choose preset entities for a tile layer

00:27

and on reload it will fill the tiles

00:27

and even a button to do ALL autofill

00:27

for all tile layers

00:27

would be so nice

Sorah

someone made it beause there was no show entities ingame so it made sense to have it

REMOVE

Ravie

but tbh someone made a feature that encourages people to use this backwards ass approach

if i see shit like this in a map and i have to design it im instantly declining

i could see it having some use

xD

ngl

I would replace autoentities with autofiller but I think all design first troglodytes would cry (edited)

whatever

louis

i could see it having some use

i.e. gores mappers

sure

00:29

gores u don't even have to test. it's all the same shit

00:29

just spray your mouse in random directions and you have a map

actually well made gores is a little more complex

lynn

every time you reload the map, ya gotta make entities out of whatever you changed for tile layers. that's just more clicks. you are not saving time. you do not have "more features"

Yup, that's why i think entities only is a viable option

00:30

I didn't even know about that method

it's not "viable"

00:30

it's the only option

00:31

for real mapping

00:31

xD

ye

Ok

otherwise wastes so much time

Yes

I've been trying to explain that to you for luke

00:31

approximately 3 hours i believe

That's why i would like to have a build button

there should be one in either case

To automatically build entities

no one has developed ot

00:32

To automatically build tiles*

00:32

think reversed now

00:33

ok new rule

I don't think tile layers are better right (edited)

00:33

Now

editor restricts the use of tile layers for all new players

But they could be better with some improvements

until they get 1000 points

00:33

then ppl forced to learn correct way

pilonpl

But they could be better with some improvements

entities can do all that shit

00:34

i still don't think u understand what autofiller does

00:34

it's the "build button" in reverse

No?

yes

00:34

it places tiles where there are entiries

00:34

entities

Its not a reversible process xD

instead of entities where there are tiles

00:35

it is

00:35

omg

00:35

someone help again

Its jot entirely

00:35

Because of layers

this "build" button exists but it's a backwards approach

pilonpl

Because of layers

you can target autofill for IDs

00:35

not just layers

You can have multiple tile layers but the resulting game layer is only one layer

00:36

You loose information

why does layers matter at all

00:36

no? dude i just said it works based on ID

00:36

not layer

00:36

the actual index

00:36

you have complete information in either case

brb making editor guide

frfrfrfrfr

00:37

every tile in an image has an ID

00:37

these IDs can be targeted for autofill (edited)

@pilonpl so how else should it be? there's just one game layer and you need to decide what the physics will be for a given layer

You still loose information because if you have two tile layers you can have twice as many block and the resulting game entities will always be a fixed soze

twice as many blocks?

Yup

you're confusing automapping with autofilling

They can overlap

00:39

No

you shouldn't want that

What? Overlapping?

yes when do solid tiles overlap

00:39

that's called a design bug

so you want a game layer per design layer? how would that work?

they want to be able to do what already exists in the editor which is to convert tile layer to entities lol

It doesn't even matter if they overlap, there is no way to tell which layer a tile belongs to just by looking at the game layer

im just explaining over and over why that way doesn't matter

pilonpl

It doesn't even matter if they overlap, there is no way to tell which layer a tile belongs to just by looking at the game layer

why should you care? autofiller handled it for you

lynn

they want to be able to do what already exists in the editor which is to convert tile layer to entities lol

? No? I want a build button that would build all game entities at once

00:41

Without clicking 3 times

00:41

Per layer

hey

00:41

guess what

00:41

that's what we want but for ENTITIES

00:41

since you map entities first anyway

And i totally understand that

your way is slower because you would still have to manage layers

But you can't recreate oryginal tile layers from game entities

our way you don't need to manage them at all

00:42

Yes you can

00:42

that's where you're wrong

00:42

IDs

00:42

ive said IDs

If i have to layers how do i decided which layer a block belongs if it has the same id?

that

00:43

would never ever happen

00:43

you can't physically have different game layer tiles with same ID

00:43

that's the point of IDs

pilonpl

If i have to layers how do i decided which layer a block belongs if it has the same id?

write an incredibly complex automapper that decides where to keep tiles based on their shape

all of that is managed for you

Ok, i am actually not an expert on ids and stuff

yes

00:44

it's just the position of the tile.

00:44

unhook has an id

00:44

hookable has a different id

00:45

map Hookable tile layer -> ID hookable

00:45

now whenever you autofill it puts Tile layer wherever you put hookable entities

00:45

gg

You have only one id for hookables, right?

you can easily do something like for example keep unhook only where it's 1 tile thin lines

no more messing around with layers and clicking a million times

pilonpl

You have only one id for hookables, right?

yes there is only one ID

00:46

the ID is the tile itself

Then you don't know which layer genrated the game entity

WHY DOES IT MATTER XD

00:46

your map is done

Because it's bot reversible

00:47

That's it

and it's trivial to find it out because you just look at the damn game layer where there's hookables

It has nothing to do with mapping

omg

00:47

i said it's reversible

00:47

just simply remove either tiles

00:47

you can go backwards and forwards

00:48

you can select only hookable using autofiller

00:48

as i said before

Maybe we'll talk tomorrow?

no what

00:48

i am not having this conversation twice xD

00:48

just know it's reversible

00:48

you can just autofill again

1. I dont think at night 2. I don't know how to explain this without pictures or something

you say it's not reversible because it's in "one layer"

00:49

well all of the hookables are in one ID

00:49

you can target that ID still....

you still have the data that created the game layer so you can clear entities and do it again

You can select only hookables but you can't know on how many layers these hookables were originally

no data lost

how many tile layers do you think you have anyway xD

00:50

and why wouldn't you name your tile layers

00:50

and why would you be manually editing using tile layers anyway if you map with entities?!??!!!!

00:50

GRAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Sorry, i am bad at explaining stuff

i rage quit MAXIMUM

00:51

THE MOST RAGEY RAGE QUIT

Ill try to make it as clear as possible tomorrow

slams door

So basically

00:52

It's not like i am against your method

00:52

But i think my method also has some potential

00:52

If the editor had a build button or something for automating stuff

it doesn't have potential since anything mapped in tile layer has to be mapped with entities anyway. you just map with entities and it will automatically place tile layer

No?

you have to have entities in order to test a map

You can just construct game entities

it's worse

It is

why do it backwards

00:53

xD

I kean

00:53

Its annoying

there's no potential

00:53

it is STRICTLY worse

00:54

i don't get why you would selectively choose to do something worse

There is and thats where we disagree

its

ok I'm lost

it's not

00:54

there's no potential

00:54

there's no disagreement

00:54

you told me you agree it's faster

Tomorrow ill write a book about the editor and different ways of using it

xD

00:55

alright dude ill be waiting for it

Ok

tomorrow i start to create maps only using .RULES

Because I don't think you understood anything

i understand everything you have said and it's strictly worse than mapping with entities

00:55

you have said nothing new since like an hour ago

Great

I know this because I have used both methods

All i want is a build button...

Other people agree

00:56

No one agrees with you

00:57

You can have your build button for entities

00:57

that much makes sense

00:57

but we need to stop mapping backwards

00:57

tiles to entities has no point and has no extra "features"

00:58

no benefits of having multiple layers, no benefits of any of the tile layer options (which are entirely decorative) and you just waste time for no reason compared to a build button for entities

It has layers. You can use different layers for different parts of a map to change the visuals. Idk how you'd do that with your method. I don't think autofiller can make multiple layers.

You're stuck thinking in reverse which is the problem

00:59

If you actually mapped with entities you might understand but seems you can't just be told it

I totally understand that mapping with entities might be better

pilonpl

It has layers. You can use different layers for different parts of a map to change the visuals. Idk how you'd do that with your method. I don't think autofiller can make multiple layers.

why does that help for organization? why can't you just tell your parts apart?

01:00

if your parts are THAT similar looking it's probably a bad map

pilonpl

It has layers. You can use different layers for different parts of a map to change the visuals. Idk how you'd do that with your method. I don't think autofiller can make multiple layers.

yes it can

01:00

for last thing you said

Maybe i just want i little bit of variation in look of my map?

pilonpl

I totally understand that mapping with entities might be better

remove the word "might"

01:00

you can still do this with entities? just mark a selection or something or do it manually

01:00

you still have to do this manually with tile layers....

I mean yes

don't know how many maps have different sections with different mapres

That's why your method is better for most maps

it's still at least slower for edge cases

01:02

you would have to do that all manually anyway or use a selection my way

you can copy just a part of game layer and autofill that

Voxel

Click to see attachment 🖼️

POG

01:02

we gotta make spawn bigger

Ok, anyway

either i can do it or you can

~~took you long enough voxel~~

You are right ok?

01:03

I don't want to argue lol

you did for a few hours

what else would u want me to make

we just have to make spawn longer

*i dont want ro argue anymore

it's too stubby imo

pilonpl

*i dont want ro argue anymore

then dont. ez

And btw the most of the time you argued

1

01:03

I literally said your method is viable

yeah because you had a toxic opinion most new mappers have

01:04

and it brings down the community xd

01:04

if you were to tell someone else this maybe they do it that way too

01:04

idea spreads

lynn

yeah because you had a toxic opinion most new mappers have

But i changed me mind and then i kust argued it would be better with a few improvements

yep so I'm glad I argued if it changed your mind

01:04

it just took many hours

Not many hours

which is ofc not idea

01:05

ideal

01:05

it did

01:05

it took 4 hours

I literally said it was a viable option

viable does not mean better.

01:05

not in America anyway xd

pilonpl

I literally said it was a viable option

Ok, maybe you thought it wasn't exactly honest or something

Voxel

Click to see attachment 🖼️

some look a bit small (detailed stuff inside 1x1 tile) and strictly use orthographic projection for doods but generally looks very nice

lynn

viable does not mean better.

I don't think it's better, i haven't used it yet

pilonpl

Ok, maybe you thought it wasn't exactly honest or something

Couldn't care if you said it was viable or not, you didn't say it was better

01:06

which was my problem

01:06

it's better

It seems great sometimes at least

it's great allllll the dammmmmn time

01:07

just gotta do it

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't

no maybe

01:07

is

01:07

proof: 3 testers now agree with me

I think it might have some issues sometimes

there is no maybe

Now you are arguing

this is what happens when ppl who are bad at arguing get put into a channel together

2

if you are running into issues with mapping entities first I question what tiles ur using

louis

this is what happens when ppl who are bad at arguing get put into a channel together

Exactly

I'm arguing again because you're backpedaling xD

pilonpl

Exactly

you aren't allowed to agree

you already agreed before

Why not?

01:09

I am bad at arguing

way worse than me, I explained everything immediately

01:09

it's not my fault it took this long

But i wont just say it's better without actually testing it

i will sit and wait

For now i think it might be good for most maps but for some i think it might not be as good

01:10

I don't really have any evidence for that

01:11

I didn't even know about this method

01:11

I mean i thought about it

01:11

But i didn't know about the autofiller

01:12

I am an agnostic, idk if it's better or not xd

01:13

Seems better at least in some cases

01:13

Maybe it's always better

it's better if there's an editor option for it

01:14

same as your method

01:14

but entities is better since you dont have to "build" at all until the map is even close to ready

Also 3am isn't the best time for arguing

6pm

You have a clear advantage because of the timezone lol

01:19

So basically first i thought your method was stupid but then i realized it might actually be good at least (/always) sometimes

01:19

And then i was only arguing about my method

01:19

I think...

01:19

I don't remember anything xD

01:20

Let's now argue about something different

idc i have to go eat xd

Something like should abortion be legal?

01:21

That's extremely controversial

01:22

More ddnet related would be should Microsoft buy ddnet?

pilonpl

Something like should abortion be legal?

yes

pilonpl

More ddnet related would be should Microsoft buy ddnet?

no

lynn

yes

It looks like we agree on that one

:D

im extremely leftist :P

Great

01:25

I think

i probably would like if governments fell apart and stuff

01:25

theoretically (edited)

01:26

probably #off-topic moment

@lynn so basically i think mapping with tile layers would be much better if testing the map wasn't so annoying. Instead of making game entities first and then creating tile layers you could do it both at the same time which is clearly better. Your method might be better but it's definitely not ideal either.

And i don't quite understand how to create multiple tile layers when using your method

09:32

It seems like you have to do some manual work too

09:32

Multiple layers aren't necessary for most maps tho

09:32

My map doesn't

09:33

I think

pilonpl

@lynn so basically i think mapping with tile layers would be much better if testing the map wasn't so annoying. Instead of making game entities first and then creating tile layers you could do it both at the same time which is clearly better. Your method might be better but it's definitely not ideal either.

ya ur still thinking backwards

Ravie

but tbh someone made a feature that encourages people to use this backwards ass approach

I don't think any of the ways is "backwards". If you uave entities you need tile layers and if you have tile layers you need entities. These two things are connected.

if u just acknowledge that you can place it simultaneously either way

09:41

its backwards to map tiles first

09:41

entities can potentially fill tiles

No, what i want is to place both at the same time

you can with entities autofiller

09:42

if it were in the client

Yes

it's not in any case

is this ever going to end

nope

09:42

xD

I just want the editor to be better xD

basically they got 3 tester opinions

09:43

and they still dunno

09:43

nothing is ideal

09:43

the editor is not perfect

09:43

welcome to ddnet

Tbh i dont like either of these methods

09:44

My is annoying and yours is no exactly "officially supported"

09:44

I don't argue against your method if you haven't noticed already

why would you prefer annoying over not officially supported

I don't

okay xD

09:44

then conversation over (?)

But with a few improvements tile layers could be as good as your method and maybe even better

09:45

I'd like to connect both methods if that makes any sense

it doesn't

It does lol

how do you wanna combine 2 approaches that are the exact opposite of each other

Step 1. Make tile layers less annoying to use Step 2. Make it so using tile layers fells just like using the autofiller

09:48

I mean

09:48

Actually that's one step xd

Ravie

how do you wanna combine 2 approaches that are the exact opposite of each other

No?

09:49

XDD

09:49

Wait

09:49

Brain lag

the point of autofiller is that you can map entities only and then quickly turn entities into design layers and automap them

Yup

09:50

That's great

09:50

Why not make it so it's both at the same time without any autofillers

so the only thing that can be improved is make this an official feature

It's literally the same thing just less annoying

Ravie

so the only thing that can be improved is make this an official feature

That's what i am talking about... Sort of, i would change it a little

what do you mean both at the same time? autofiller to design is just a few clicks, but you do it at the end instead of live

Why not make it so you can use tile layers just like you would you game entities but you also can do the stuff that you already can do with layers

mapping tile layers is a lot more work than just entities

09:54

with entities you're dealing with a single layer and no tile rotations etc

You still can use tile layers without rotations

pilonpl

Why not make it so you can use tile layers just like you would you game entities but you also can do the stuff that you already can do with layers

than you still have to assign a game tile to the tilelayer ? or how else would it know what to place

I mean yes

09:55

You have to do that no matter the approach

what if you want both hook and unhook on the same layer? do you assign a game tile to every single tile in the tileset? xd

I just want to say that again, i am not against mapping with entities, i will use that approach probably

one other reason i didnt see yet why you shouldnt start mapping with design is if you test with other people and reload your map often they gonna get flooded with bigger files than they need to and even makes them download longer so waste time again on that

Ravie

what if you want both hook and unhook on the same layer? do you assign a game tile to every single tile in the tileset? xd

What?

say I have a tileset with a red and a blue block and I want them to be hook and unhook

09:59

but it's one layer

You have to create another layer

09:59

And set the same image i guess

ye that's annoying and inefficient

You only have to do that once

sometimes you use one layer for several things

10:01

if you add more layers than needed then you're wasting file size

I don't know how maps are saved

10:02

So idk

10:03

Anyway, would be great if there was an autofiller officially

10:04

But i think it would be better to have it more seamless

it wouldn't change much tho, just a little convenience that you don't need to copy layers

ravie dont waste ur time

Once again, i am not arguing against mapping with entities only (just saying)

lynn

ravie dont waste ur time

xd

10:06

I could easily code autofiller but I think it should then replace the auto entities thing and removing it would probably get backlash

10:07

if you do anything that affects people's workflow they'll rage even if the change forces them to use a better and more efficient way

Or another idea is having groups of entities

10:08

So you still have some kind of "layers" and have all benefits of using game entities only

10:09

But it's basically the smae thing i proposed earlier but in reverse

10:09

Kinda

ur basically just inventing ways to continue to map in a worse way

10:11

which is very very odd

No?

pilonpl

So you still have some kind of "layers" and have all benefits of using game entities only

.

10:12

you dont need multiple layers

10:12

multiple layers is worse

10:12

for game layer

Well, I'd like to prefer having multiple layers

but why

10:12

i still dont know why

That makes much more sense

that doesnt make more sense to me

10:13

why do you want to put freeze behind unhook tiles

You can think about the look while making gameplay

hookables behind unhook

10:13

freeze in unfreeze

10:13

list continues

What? Noo

10:13

These groups wouldn't be allowed to overlap

they can and would

10:14

they're different layers

pilonpl

You can think about the look while making gameplay

you can without placing any tile layers

if you cant "imagine" what the map would look like you probably dont play/edit in entities enough

when I'm making gameplay I don't wanna worry about any design stuff, only make entities in a structure that I know will fit design which doesn't exist yet

if you map big you dont need to worry about design anyway, sorta like ravie said

10:16

i still dont understand why multiple layers is better

10:16

i do not want to be forced to select multiple layers to replace tiles

You have to add multiple layers at the end anyways

and? that's not editing with multiple layers

but you don't have to deal with them until the end xd

you're suggesting a workflow which involves EDITING multiple layers

I am not talking about what's currently the best btw, i am talking about an idea

xD

10:17

our method doesnt involve editing multiple layers, only adding them at the end

10:17

and tiles would be filled based on automap rules

10:18

based on entities ID

That's great

even if somehow you made it so that layers respect each other and made replacements

10:18

you are still choosing to encourage a workflow that has more cognitive overhead

10:18

instead of acknowledging that mapping entities is simpler

10:18

it makes no sense and is a costly abstraction

But it creates only one layer so if you want more you have to make it manually Which you could've done while making gameplay

especially when you consider that if anyone will ever have to touch your map they will have to deal with your workflow as well

pilonpl

But it creates only one layer so if you want more you have to make it manually Which you could've done while making gameplay

"if you want more"

10:19

why

10:19

do i want

10:19

to make more

10:19

i want one layer

10:19

i want replacements

That's great

why would anyone want more than one layer

For my map only one layer needed too

there's still no point

10:20

imma make a giant video

10:20

cus im like

10:20

frothing at the mouth at this point

But i think multiple layers are sometime convenient

in what cases

10:21

please please please describe them

And being able to create them while making gameplay would be great

you havent once said one reason it's better

change of subject, @lynn I made null brush with right click, delete area with shift+drag+null and fill area with shift+drag. also added n & m @Patiga I made unlisted maps but as a side effect u cannot delete them lol

k2d222

change of subject, @lynn I made null brush with right click, delete area with shift+drag+null and fill area with shift+drag. also added n & m @Patiga I made unlisted maps but as a side effect u cannot delete them lol

ill test it

and now i'm going to mute this channel lol

xD

lynn

you havent once said one reason it's better

Because having more options always is better

pilonpl

Because having more options always is better

MORE OPTIONS TO DO WHAT

10:22

i have asked this many times xd

10:22

what "options" do you magically get rewarded with

10:22

for using more than one layer

more options to avoid mapping the logical way

you get a migraine

10:22

massive headache

Using more layers, that's the new option

that's the "option" you get

10:22

so more clicking

10:22

you GET to click MORE?

what

is that a privilege??!?!

Wdym clicking more

layers

10:23

you have to select layers to place tiles in those layers

If you want to create a new layer it doesn't matter when you create it

10:23

And sometimes it might be more convenient to create it while making gameplay, idk

you keep saying stuff like "sometimes" or "sometimes convenient"

10:24

and then never ever back yourself up with an example

10:24

if you could name one example then we can actually talk about your idea

I think it would be just convenient to be able to edit the map after creating tile layers too. With the current game entities only method you always automatically generate only one layer. So if you change something you have to basically edit your layer manually to reflect new changes. Sure, you might not need that but for me it seems like it's just more convenient

10:28

It's just an extension of the current method

10:28

I don't want to delete any features

10:28

Just add small improvements

10:28

And sure, many people probably don't need that at all.

10:29

So the entities only method is great but it could've been better

10:33

What if for some reason you want to change the color of a platform, it would be convenient to have a separate layer for it. It's not like that happens often.

to make a map that's any good you'll be editing entities a loooot so not dealing with anything else until entities are finished is a huge time saver

pilonpl

I think it would be just convenient to be able to edit the map after creating tile layers too. With the current game entities only method you always automatically generate only one layer. So if you change something you have to basically edit your layer manually to reflect new changes. Sure, you might not need that but for me it seems like it's just more convenient

you can generate more if you want and you can always edit whatever layer you created for the specific tile,

So there is only one resulting tile layer representing for example all hookables

10:37

What if you want to have two layers for hookables

10:38

So you can automap them differently

then you make two

10:38

and run different automappers

But then you have to delete all tiles that aren't supposed to be automapped with a different automapper

10:39

Right?

automapper can delete them

How?

by replacing tiles that you don't want with empty

How does it know what tiles i want?

10:41

Sure, you can add rules

10:41

But what if there is no rule

10:42

And yeah, that probably is rare

fuck

10:42

the video is too long

10:42

i have to compress it

Arguably having more options wont hurt

this is my rage video

10:43

get ready

10:43

:0

10:44

shitty quality because of compression sorry

10:44

it wouldnt fit into discord

10:47

that's just scratching the surface too

10:47

there's more issues when you have to edit existing parts to make them work

10:47

like cleaning up "dead" tile layers that no longer have entities behind them

10:47

there's a button for it! but that's another click you have to do

telé

how do you say it oO

10:49

tel eh??

like in teleport?

sure but sounds bland to say it

10:49

i guess you're right

10:49

im an american i guess

a american

omfg stop

10:50

it might be really funny to make a simple novice map like this with the compression to see how bad it gets xD

10:50

i might sound like a robot

lol

10:51

bitcrushed

my voice cringe also

10:51

but fuck it

lynn

there's more issues when you have to edit existing parts to make them work

Yup

11:00

And that's the official way of doing things xD

11:00

That's why the editor isn't good imo

11:00

There is a good workaround

11:00

Which is great

the editor isn't bad, you have a choice if you wanna use a good workflow or not

Imagine if the automapper wasn't a thing

11:03

Then the official way would be the only way

11:05

Btw I don't think that using tile layers is better lol

11:05

Now i am totally convinced game tiles is better

here's the video xd

But it's not perfect imo

wait i gotta compress it shit

11:06

i actually unironically like one part

11:06

but it's really bad on purpose

11:06

i uploaded in mkv too

11:06

maybe it's really terrible

11:07

this is the best channel. the mapping channel. where mapping happens

11:07

are you fucking kidding me

lynn

Click to see attachment 🖼️

about the freeze if you happen to automap freeze where it shouldnt be get placed as a gametile you either using fat corners and should get banned or u used very tiny corners for design reasons and if those get placed at the wrong spot you used a bad autofilter

ah well that was just something someone told me xd

well your point still makes sense so its ok

So i will use game entities only for my map lol

11:09

For my map it's definitely a better option (edited)

11:09

But i am quite convinced it is always better

11:09

Or maybe like 99.999% of maps

ok video uploading to google drive fuck it

only really makes sense if you try to create a showoff design map

11:10

with no real gameplay*

I already created tile layers but it's for testing tilesets

11:11

And cors

11:11

Colors

?

well its ok for testing yes

ok hjere is the BEST MAP EVAR :D

11:12

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10xdqM8qI6XHtFtyFUcb-Y9tT2ZmnedRh/view?usp=sharing

2022-08-20 03-51-17.mp4

But the automapper doesn't like me at all

11:12

It doesn't work

just already raging if i was to be on you with a server i would need to download all that stuff every reload again

wtf it's processing still

11:13

xd

than its a bad automapper or you use it wrong

download it then

It doesn't want to xflip my tile

11:13

I want to rotate and xflip

11:13

In that exact order

you trying to make your own rules ?

Yes

doesnt work like that

k2d222

doesnt work like that

I noticed

its always vflip then hflip then rotate

you rotate with R ? i mean in the editor

k2d222

its always vflip then hflip then rotate

That's stupid

no it's not

In the editor its possible

you can do all transforms that way

Is it possible to rotate to the left?

yes

How

you fliph, flipv and rotate

Smart

11:16

But also weird

R = counterclockwise T=clockwise and rules always rotate clockwise

11:16

idk who was so smart and made R counterclockwise

11:16

screwed me over often too

i know, you need to differentiate the way you use it and the way it is represented and stored in the map

The automapper also could've been better i think

?

I mean it is good

what would you do differently

Actually nvm, the method i thought of is probably more limited

11:23

I would add some sort of a doucmentation i guess?

11:24

I couldn't find any information on the automapper

11:24

And it's functions

pilonpl

Is it possible to rotate to the left?

rotate 3 times

It's not possible

Ok to me the n°1 problem with the editor as is is the lack of discoverability basically you have to rely on chance and asking others to find features

Every feature should have a button

11:25

Idk if that's the case

dont think so or if so, well hidden

11:26

open the tile picker is only spacebar how can you discover that

Well, that's true

11:26

"no, the editor is great you just don't know how to use it" (edited)

11:27

I don't think so

pilonpl

It's not possible

not like i explained how but ok

lynn

rotate 3 times

i hate u

WHAT

11:29

why not

T

You can't rotate 3 times

11:29

I tried

wait T works?

11:29

since when

always i guess

huh ok

11:30

maybe ill remember

pilonpl

You can't rotate 3 times

in rules ? no u have to use the flip way

would be great to add that to the rules

11:31

seems retro-compatible too

what do you think about my first part??

that your gametiles are bad

?

idk if its HT or not

11:35

would really like if people would switch back to vanilla gametiles to showoff a part

11:36

@lynn goes for you

like this?

yes thank you

11:38

well seems like a very basic part and you can cheat it

11:38

both tees can go top way

Yeah, it's not finished but i just wanted to post something less controversial lol

ok oo

xd

I like the tp in the corner because you have to think a little

11:41

Idk how hard i want my map to be

11:41

More experienced players wont even notice the tp at all

:0

pilonpl

:0

ehhh most ppl will say its like ddmax

12:51

@k2d222 hey all of that stuff works great btw :D

12:51

it's good to practice the editor tho

lynn

ehhh most ppl will say its like ddmax

Is that a bad thing?

ye its rly simple mapping

Well, it's just the first part lol

well ill see other parts you make

12:52

i was really bad when i started mapping

I know that's quite basic and not very creative

What are the most interesting things you can do in mod maps?

13:14

like edgehook or fly or smth

lynn

well ill see other parts you make

i was thinking about something like this

13:23

maybe its possible to modify it a bit

13:23

to make it actually good lol

pilonpl

i was thinking about something like this

place totele 1 tile above ground

13:28

to avoid tees spawing inside eachother and do big jump

yup

also place more than just 1

i noticed

2-3

the additional tp blocks make it so much better (edited)

i actually think this is a decent part

pilonpl

:0

@lynn I don't see anything ddmaxish about this part. Stop using ddmax as an excuse. Map with parts like this would ba a normal ddnet map. Example here : https://ddnet.tw/mappreview/?map=Cuboid

1

Yup

14:14

I see a lot of maps with parts like that

stop using ddmax as an excuse to map ddmax

what u wrote here was sooo Ravie of you xD

1

This is worst example to compare with ddmax, cuz most of new novice maps are fully of boring af hookthrough tiles exactly like that part and new maps have nothing to do with ddmax, u usually wrongly call ddmax boring oldstyle parts, that hooktrough tile doesnt even exist in ddmax i think xd

2

14:30

damm rip tag

lynn

ehhh most ppl will say its like ddmax

i was tagging this, idk what im doing rn xd

pilonpl

i actually think this is a decent part

yea that actually looks decent if you make the spacing a bit better

xD

22:06

wow i pissed off two people

pilonpl

the additional tp blocks make it so much better (edited)

good part yea, I liked the idea of hooking the tee from the platform and raising the tele but it's your part :D

I don't quite understand

pilonpl

i actually think this is a decent part

had a cool idea where the first tee goes up and then they reuse the HT to pull them up with you

22:10

instead of right

22:10

right would just be a closed area

22:10

so they can stand to move them up

22:11

you might be able to cheat it unless you fixed spacing but ye

22:11

bottom should have more space on the left

lynn

bottom should have more space on the left

Maybe, it looks a bit weird lol

need more space to hammer moving left else you have to stop

I mean, it's easier to unfreeze like this

exactly, could be harder

22:18

i should show the idea i had too

I don't know if i want it to be harder

ok hold on I map

I like the evolution of that part lol

22:26

The first version has an unintended solution which completely skips getting speed from falling

22:27

Second version prevents that by adding some tp blocks

22:28

And the 3rd version has this big block so the second player has to use "the main mechanic" again

22:29

It's still possible to hook the first player from the platform at the bottom

22:30

But i think it's quite hard to do

22:33

Its also well balanced because every player has to do something

22:33

Which is the main issue of the first part

22:34

I could add another similar part for the second player

22:34

I don't know yet

22:57

this was my idea + extra part at the end that i fucked up

22:58

IM SO BDA

22:58

BAD

22:58

an idea of getting vertical hook boost from tee and then hammering them sounds cool

I want to do something similar in another part

23:03

I have this concept of getting enough speed so i want to use it i guess

go ahead and steal any of that

I wonder if the part i made is original lol

23:06

It's quite simple

lynn

Click to see attachment 🖼️

Btw old hud