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DDraceNetwork
DDraceNetwork / mapping
Here you can talk about mapping, ask mapping related questions or request new ratings for released maps
Between 2022-08-19 00:00:00Z and 2022-08-20 00:00:00Z
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What if a tester creates a map?
06:38
Can they just approve thier own map? Lol
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i think theres a rule stating they cant do that
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pilonpl
Can they just approve thier own map? Lol
there is a lot of another testers lulz
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not perfect
09:00
but pretty good
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could be nice to have some more details on it
09:11
maybe darker lines? but thats probably just more of a preference
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Broso56
could be nice to have some more details on it
i know
09:12
also an automapper
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jao's hairy kebab
from texnonik video
new mappers are bad at gauging whether their maps are good
i always thinked that my map is amazing. maybe they are, but execution is bad no flow difficulty spikes and a lot other problems was in my maps. Most big problem that i was creating is if i made part and it worked i puted it in map with out thinking about the part at all.
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is there an easy way to refresh automapper?
09:27
nvm
09:33
In what order are rules executed?
09:35
Also, is there a tutorial with every feature of automapper described?
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Ok, i think i have to use NewRun
09:48
I think I should start with corners
10:40
the automapper doesn't work
10:41
For some reason it doesn't xflip my tile
10:45
I want to rotate and xflip
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why doesnt super surpass jump limits?????
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k2d222
hey mappers! I am developing a multiplayer map editor for ddnet and it is mostly complete now, but still untested. If you're interested in this, you can try it out and I would appreciate any feedback! ❤️ (it prob has some bugs and usability issues) editor - https://tw.thissma.fr git repo - https://github.com/k2d222/twwe ddnet test server - "twwe -- tw.thissma.fr" / 82.64.235.33:8303
What should I implement next in the web editor?
  • Auto mappers
  • Sound layers
  • A map chat
  • Undo/Redo
  • Something else? I let you decide 😉
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desktop version troll
🤡 2
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k2d222
What should I implement next in the web editor?
  • Auto mappers
  • Sound layers
  • A map chat
  • Undo/Redo
  • Something else? I let you decide 😉
I think mappers need unlisted servers to map together, so that they can use your server but without random people joining
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hmm maybe password protected maps? that would be the easiest way to do it without the hassle of implementing accounts
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yes password would also work
16:00
maybe just a link they can share
16:00
hm link to share would probably be nice either way ^^
16:01
ah that probably already exists, just the url
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gerdoe
desktop version troll
this is not a joke actually, i do want such things to multi edit with others but i never expect it in web browser xd
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I can wrap it in a electron app (just like discord) if you like it
17:45
basically discord and plenty of other popular 'apps' are just web browsers without a search bar and some added features like access to the filesystem (edited)
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nah thanks, not really want to mapping these days
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Why not?
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k2d222
basically discord and plenty of other popular 'apps' are just web browsers without a search bar and some added features like access to the filesystem (edited)
that why theyre so fat kekw
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Even vscode...
18:10
Who would've thought
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fat, slow, inefficient... BUT cross-platform, easy to develop, always look the same
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"fat, slow, inefficient" - reddit app
18:17
For some reason it extremely slow and painful to use
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k2d222
fat, slow, inefficient... BUT cross-platform, easy to develop, always look the same
so easy to make but simply bad?
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k2d222
What should I implement next in the web editor?
  • Auto mappers
  • Sound layers
  • A map chat
  • Undo/Redo
  • Something else? I let you decide 😉
none, please implement the line tool first and remap shift-click
22:02
unless you just did it or something (edited)
22:03
electron apps aren't that slow and a map editor doesn't need to be fast unless you're updating a lot of tiles
22:03
cut your losses
22:04
it's better that it's web. now it's embeddable in anything
22:04
i think accessibility is the most important feature here
22:05
the fact that you don't have to download anything extra to map with others
22:05
imo the things that keep me from using the web editor are just that it doesn't control the same as the real thing. so shift-click and line tool and then the rest can be done :D
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Websites feel fake imo
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map chat is an excellent idea as well, assuming you're using any common framework you can just use socket.io
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lynn
none, please implement the line tool first and remap shift-click
what's the line tool? shift+drag? (edited)
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undo/redo would be the quickest way to gather interest
22:08
since the current editor only supports this as a non-standard option and it is buggy
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k2d222
what's the line tool? shift+drag? (edited)
yep
22:08
and shift click with null brush deletes
22:08
there isn't currently a null brush though
22:08
with right click
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now there is
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but not with right click yet
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but ye if you have null brush shift click deletes
22:09
you have to remap drag without shift to check for null brush
22:10
that becomes the new logic for setting the brush
22:10
which always handles rects
22:10
currently it always handles single tiles
22:10
last i checked
22:10
and then shift click was specifically rects
22:11
oh and i should point out that shift click with brush also can make rects it's just commonly used as a line tool as well
22:11
so if i say line tool that's what i mean saddo
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ok i'll do that tomorrow
22:12
or today i should say
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Well, that's a very limited line tool
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u are amazing heartw
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pilonpl
Well, that's a very limited line tool
wdym
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Only straight lines :(
22:12
i guess there isn't a freeform line tool
22:13
only rect
22:13
but imo perfectly straight lines are only needed
22:13
angled lines are cringe in ddnet xd
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you don't really have slanted lines in ddnet maps
22:13
only for parts with tele or freeze i guess
22:13
fly sections
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Ofc you need
22:13
For decorations or something
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you can just make a slanted brush
22:14
also for deco you almost never use anything other than single rect selections
22:14
since in mapres files they're fit into rects
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It is possible to do everything
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that would be very, very low priority on my todo list aka i wont implement that
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slanted stuff is not useful at all trust me
22:15
not for DDrace maps
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I know
22:15
But still
22:15
Pretty basic feature
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"but still" okay let's implement countless features no one will use?
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besides, not basic to implement
22:15
requires unit lines math
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in fact it's already implemented
22:16
when you free draw it actially raster the line between mouse positions
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Editor commands would be great too
22:17
I think...
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what commands
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editor commands?
22:17
so that you can bind things?
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F1 commands
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lynn
so that you can bind things?
Yup
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that sounds like a desktop feature imo
22:18
k2 would have to emulate a terminal, not worth it imo
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not even ddnet client has this
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That's the point
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you could create it for ddnet
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makes less sense in a web environment
22:18
eh you would map things like Destructive or toggle picker etc
22:19
to commands
22:19
then you can rebind them
22:19
only trouble is that they're context specific.
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Lua support :0
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space jumps and it also opens editor picker (edited)
22:19
if there were settings for it, it would get mindfucky
22:20
might as well stick to directly enhancing the editor experience currently available xD
22:20
which imo they have already done
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I could see key rebinds happen but not with a console lol
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you could make a modal thing but meh
22:20
don't waste ur time xd
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There are just so many litle annoying things in the original editor
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i love the editor
22:25
greenthing
22:25
just takes practice
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Well yes but no
22:25
The color picker is bad
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i don't even think the editor is hard ppl just don't know the keys
22:26
yes i agree but i never mess with colors
22:26
especially if you create your own mapres anyway
22:26
it can be improved, there is already the component for skins
22:27
@Ryozuki in your opinion is it a lot of work to stuff something like skin color picker in a container like a tool window?
22:27
sorta like the existing windows in editor
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Constructing game entities is annoying
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that's easiest part
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It's true that when I opened the editor the first time I thought what is this shit and that eventually led the the web editor but after getting used to it, it mostly makes sense
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i should make a video of me making sunny side up from memory
22:28
might be really funny ddnet video
22:28
it would also show how fast i am at the editor
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It's not like the editor is hard to use
22:28
It's just inefficient
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lynn
@Ryozuki in your opinion is it a lot of work to stuff something like skin color picker in a container like a tool window?
probs not
22:28
but i didnt do the color picker
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it's rly efficient to me
22:28
ah
22:28
jump?
22:28
jup
22:28
autocorrect
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It literally has only very basic features
22:29
At least there is the automapper
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what is a not basic feature that you need
22:29
the automapper isn't as important if you're not also using autofiller
22:30
imo autofiller should be an in-editor feature
👍 1
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Wtf is an autofiller
22:30
maybe you just don't know as much about the editor B)
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I don't know much about the esitor
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auto game tiles?
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But i should now all the features
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Sorah and Pulsar made an autofiller mapres
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If their not hidden
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which had a method for placing game layer based on tile layer ID
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And a good editor should have every feature available through buttons
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so you could place tile layer, map like normal, use autofiller to place entities behind it, then automap to different IDs like rounded corners (edited)
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I would agree that the ux is terrible in the ddnet editor
22:32
non standard all over the place
22:32
excuse me why m & n to flip?
22:32
what keys do you recommend
22:32
I implemented that
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m and n btw are the same in osu
22:32
i believe
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same in inkscape
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at least add m and n for people that are used to ddnet :/
22:33
you have to have the expectations that older players are going to come into the editor and assume things are not working
22:33
especially if people who are older want to teach newer mappers
22:33
but up to you obviously
22:34
scenario:
22:34
a newer mapper learns via this web editor
22:34
they think ok i think i know how to use the editor now
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not a bad idea to have multiple keybinds as long as it doesn't conflict but if it conflicts i rather use what to me makes sense
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then they open the real editor and none of the key shortcuts they learned on are the same
22:34
it undermines the value of the web editor
22:35
m/n/r are intuitive to me now
22:35
i think it's m for mirror
22:36
and n because it's close
22:36
f was not available for something like flip
22:36
since this is reserved for layer metadata toggle
22:36
er not metadata
22:36
tile options?
22:37
tile options
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tile foptions
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@k2d222 I would understand if you want to use keybinds that make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the ddnet editor binds don't make sense if you think you can make binds that are more intuitive/useful, I would say go ahead and try it out would it be much effort to be able to toggle to 'legacy mode'?
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F is barely useful anyways
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Patiga
@k2d222 I would understand if you want to use keybinds that make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the ddnet editor binds don't make sense if you think you can make binds that are more intuitive/useful, I would say go ahead and try it out would it be much effort to be able to toggle to 'legacy mode'?
more than legacy mode, I think multiple binds would be nice
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cus you still have to manually click the button
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there NOT are to many anyways (edited)
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sorry i got it backwards
22:38
F is for find next tele/switch
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ah, sounds good then :)
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you still have to click the tile options though which is a pain
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as long as the binds are explained somewhere, it sounds very good :)
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i have made a lot of editor issues in the past
22:39
but none have traction xD
22:40
many things like shift-click are broken
22:41
i still want shift-scroll for changing tele/switch number
22:41
if you do that you are the best
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I've wanted this in ddnet for months but never rly pushed it
22:42
just made GitHub issue
22:42
basically the maps i want to make are too hard in ddnet editor
22:42
without the feature
22:42
they abuse all 255 numbers lol
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don't ask
22:43
basically it's like teeworlds redstone
22:43
best explanation probably
22:43
logic gates and such
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Computers in ddnet
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hmm I thought about that too
22:43
how to make maps turing complete
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there is a calculator but it is deterministic from the start
22:43
it's not a true calculator
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Well, i am pretty sure calculators are supposed to be deterministic
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at least, from what i remember
22:44
no i mean from the start
22:44
everything is predetermined
22:44
the answers
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any combination
22:45
basically i have to make maps that are intentionally confusing so as to obfuscate their design
22:45
for an upcoming project ;)
22:45
What
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my lips are sealed
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Obfuscate a map?
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but i am also working on a mafia map
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I am working on a map too i guess
22:46
Testing is hard
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Mainly because of the amount of clicks required to test a map
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do you have up left right down and tele bound to keys
22:47
also bind f5 rcon reload
22:48
BEST BIND (edited)
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Reloading isn't the issue
22:48
The issue is constructing the entities
22:49
I'm wondering what could be slow about that :P
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Clicking
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well to select a different tile that's one click
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3 clicks per layer
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how could you make it less than 3 clicks?
22:50
im assuming the clicks are choose layer, set brush, draw
22:50
you can select every layer
22:50
and just grab from map
22:50
2 clicks
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What, no no no no
22:50
That's not what i mean at all
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oh that reminds me
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lynn
you can select every layer
also crucial missing feature in web editor
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im not sure if multilayer is in web- AH YEP
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u too slow
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The problem is constructing game entities from layers
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game entities from layers?
22:51
still sounds as i described (edited)
22:52
No
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yes a bit
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if you're talking about testing a map, what could you be talking about
22:52
editing entities yes?
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There is this feature where you can autogenerate game entities
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...are you mapping tiles before you map entities
22:53
biggest beginner mapper mistake xd
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What am i supposed to do???
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map entities only
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Why???
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I agree it would be nice to have an auto-game-tiles like automappers that way both at the same time
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then use autofiller when you finish
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actually i don't even remember which way autofiller works
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lynn
map entities only
U think that way because you have been used to that way
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why do you care about mapres anyway?
22:54
are you going to publish the map? xD
22:54
just test in entities
22:54
so much faster
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k2d222
U think that way because you have been used to that way
i was taught this very early
22:55
someone yelled at me for it
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But I'd have to do so much work afterwards
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you can just use autofiller
22:55
mapres only needed if you're about to submit a map imo
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I want to submit the map at some point
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mmmm i need to remember how autofiller works
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my first experience with editor was: place some freeze tiles > auto apply freeze tiles > automap freeze to have the round corners > now I can't auto game tiles bcs it also applies to the corners
22:56
yep
22:56
that's why you do corners at the end
22:56
it's annoying for sure
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it is evitable
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the automap/autofill stuff is the WORST part of the editor
22:56
for sure
22:57
i just want to map tile layer to entities
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There should be an entirely new stage of map development, building
22:57
Or whatever
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so I can test in entities and flash-fill specific tile layer for entities ID
22:57
and then conditionally automap if it supports it
22:58
it doesn't seem like a lot of work
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I don't quote understand how an autofiller works but it seems like you still have to do a lot of manual work
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i mean after all it's the opposite of the Game tiles function
22:58
use the game tiles function if you want to map with tile layer otherwise learn how to use autofiller
22:59
but honestly i recommend just doing tiles after map is done xd
22:59
that's what i did for volleyball
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But then you have to manually place tiles
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not if you use autofiller i think
23:00
gah let me look it up
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An autofiller doesn't know what tiles to use where
23:00
I only know that
23:01
Using tile layers is would be much more convenient if it was easier to build game entities
23:02
i haven't used it in a while, ymmv
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The only benefit of mapping woth entities is easier testing
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easier testing, playing with others, basically anything important xD
23:04
tiles are just for show
23:05
most steam players use entities also
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I think we need to ask an independent mapper for an opinion
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pilonpl
I only know that
than tell it what tile
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an independent mapper?
23:07
what does that mean (edited)
23:07
im a mapper :D
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lynn
i just want to map tile layer to entities
?
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automatic feature to tile layers
23:08
basically i want to tell it to place over where there is an entity ID
23:08
think "reverse game layers" button
23:09
then we don't need autofiller anymore
23:09
just make it an editor feature
23:09
would be the nicest thing for editor imo
23:10
cus then you can test at max speed without worrying later
23:10
i never remember how autofiller works also xd
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lynn
basically i want to tell it to place over where there is an entity ID
this is what autofiller does
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Using tile layers also have an advantage because you can actually separate different parts and then make them beautiful with the automapper
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ye but slow. i only want to do this: new tile layer, set image, find autofiller rule for hookthrough, done
23:11
hookthrough tile layer gets placed wherever there is ht ID
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than you include the autofiller rule into the automapper for hookthrough and "skip" the autofiller part
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pilonpl
Using tile layers also have an advantage because you can actually separate different parts and then make them beautiful with the automapper
no it's not because you can do all of that at the end anyway
23:12
if your map is not tested to be good who cares if it looks pretty
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They only slow part is actually building the game entities and
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you just wasted all your time and it's getting declined
23:12
a pitfall many mappers fall into
23:12
they waste too much time imo
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lynn
if your map is not tested to be good who cares if it looks pretty
What??? You don't need to make your map Pretty at the beginning
23:13
You can use tile layers
23:13
And at the end
23:13
Use an automapper or something
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you change one thing while testing and you have to rerun the automapper again in your way if you only do entities and have the gameplay done and its tested you only need to run the automapper once = less work
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that's not even realistic because that implies that you're doing all tile layer at once. any real mapper knows that you have to test over and over to build the entire map
23:13
have to test each part separately
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Sorah
you change one thing while testing and you have to rerun the automapper again in your way if you only do entities and have the gameplay done and its tested you only need to run the automapper once = less work
WHY?? the automapper only makes the map look good
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if you really want to waste your time and mess with automapper + game tiles button every time you reload then be my guest
23:14
have fun wasting many hours :P
23:15
who cares if your map looks good for testing? xD
23:15
good looks only matter for finished maps
23:15
since testing team requires design
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN
23:15
I DON'T WANT TO USE THE AUTOMAPPER
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that's even more of a time waste
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i just want to use tile layers to separate different parts
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now you've got to manually pick all of the tiles
23:16
and then use game tiles button to fill entities
23:16
and then reload
23:16
repeat 1000 times
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Thst the oy issue
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i would rather map entities, reload, map entities, reload x1000 and do 1x tiles at the end
23:17
only issue? that's the biggest issue to have to waste time every reload
23:17
if you aren't reloading a map every 5-10 minutes you're probably not getting much tested anyway
23:18
in my experience
23:18
you will get better at having to reload less for continuous map changes but
23:18
imo that's only if you are a VERY EXPERIENCED mapper
23:18
i wouldn't even consider myself someone who can do that
23:19
i should just speedrun making a shitty novice map to prove my point xD
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Of use game entities only
23:22
Its not really the point
23:23
The point is: using entities solves only one issue
23:23
And it's extremely easy to salve all issues with tile layers
23:24
Someone would just have to code it
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it just sounds like you don't see the point
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tile layers solves nothing, you still have to fill using game tiles button
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I just got annoyed by the "you don't have to make your map pretty"
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because it's true?
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It is true
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why do you care about tile layers if the map is unfinished?
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Thats the whole point
23:26
I have never said that i want make my map look good
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then use entities
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The issue with entities is lack of layers
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lack of layers?
23:27
what do you mean by that
23:27
there are like 7 game layers
23:27
off the top of my head
23:28
game front switch tele tune speeder sound (if you count that)
23:28
the rest are quads and tile layers which are non-game group
23:28
which are for decorating only
23:30
your map will take many many more clicks to test compared to tile layer at the end. there is literally zero benefit to mapping tile layer first. you keep insisting there's some benefits but there are none
23:30
it just slows you down
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pilonpl
I just got annoyed by the "you don't have to make your map pretty"
you dont have to but you should just not as your first step
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i used to think the same as you but i was wrong
23:33
if you mean you want a whole layer for hookables only then you're probably mapping wrong
23:34
and also likely to get stacked tile layers on accident
23:34
and no capacity to replace tiles of a different type... no ability to set a brush with more than one tile.... the list goes on
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1. You can always select multiple layers
23:37
2. I would add a build button
23:38
That would automatically create game entities
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1. You can always not select multiple layers and fuck yourself over that way 2. already exists in the editor
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Where?
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game tiles button
23:38
for tile layers
23:39
bottom of tile layer context menu
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But i want to automatically add entities to all laters at once
23:39
So no annoying clicking
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why not do this in reverse
23:39
map entities and tiles are autofilled
23:39
don't have to do it in order to test map, but one click for production
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Because you then have to manually add different layers
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that's what im advocating for
23:40
you have to manually add layers anyway?
23:40
at the start?
23:40
xD i don't understand the difference
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Sure, i understand that using game entities only is and ok way to map
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it's the way every sane mapper maps
23:40
just ask anyone (edited)
23:41
yo @Im 'corneum do you map entities to test or tile layers + game layers button
23:41
probably he's asleep
23:41
@louis yo kid
23:41
little help here
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lynn
xD i don't understand the difference
The difference is that you can do both at the same time (game entities and visual stiuff(not actually visual untill you use the automapper))
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why do you need both at the same time exactly?
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It's faster
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and you can still do "both at the same time" in my version
23:42
no it's not
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I don't think you can
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omfg no wonder old mappers try not to help im getting tired
23:43
just pls @louis
23:43
he needs to see a name that is not mine agree with me
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I don't really argue against mapping with entities only
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pilonpl
I don't think you can
entities, autofill, done
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But i think it could've been better
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it's not supported by the editor, just like what you're saying (edited)
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Autofill is dumb
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it's not, it's all we have
23:44
there is no other editor feature for it
23:45
if there was an editor feature it would be automatic as i described
23:46
place entities, test like normal, if map is good, add tile layer, select image, select autofill to entities type
23:46
do that for all entities types, map is done
23:46
add quads and doodads if you care
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do you map with entities first
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just map in the way that is fun and fast for u
23:47
i do entities first
23:48
do you use autofiller
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only if im using tilesets with automappers
23:48
otherwise you do manually?
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for custom ones i just spend 2 hours doing it manually or steal a similar tilesets automapper
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your designs are always simple anyway
23:48
lol
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or ask me to make him some
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Sorah make me another cute autofiller
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lynn
your designs are always simple anyway
u
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you remember the only one i made you ? lol
23:49
this is not simple to manually place
23:49
saddo
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Sorah
you remember the only one i made you ? lol
ya
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louis
this is not simple to manually place
L
23:51
@Voxel babe can we finish volleyball soon so i can quit ddnet
23:53
also Louis i still need your help for clipping the game layer out of view for a rectangular region
23:53
no one else will help me so ...... sad
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thats wild fr (edited)
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lynn
ya
ok cute but idk what to make you
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make something that reminds u of me...
23:53
DON'T
23:53
PUT A PENCIL
23:53
YOU FUCKER
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i was thinking about it yes
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louis
thats wild fr (edited)
do u get what i mean tho
23:54
like it has to match para of BG too
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and hide the game layer stuff like particles and lasers
23:54
basically
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i dont think u can hide particles or lasers
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it has to just look like nothing when you tp
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oh wait u probably can
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you can with solid tiles
23:55
ye
23:55
but ravie said
23:55
you can do it with quads i just dunno
23:55
i have to make it at least resemble the background
23:55
so that it isn't as jarring to be teleported there
23:56
solid color tiles were too epileptic and anything else was rly eye hurty cus fast moving tiles
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still dont understand
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