DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2022-08-02 00:00:00Z and 2022-08-03 00:00:00Z

Tater

Freeze bar changes opacity when tee is in/out of freeze. Imo it makes aled much easier

I hadn't realized this, this should immediately be removed, it's ruining the game /s

funman

Personally I think the worst thing allowed is the aimhack bind which allows people to autoaim to cardinal directions

This one is a far bigger cheat than every other non-issue mentioned here

Its funny you can fix aim cheat thing with a single character in config code but its too late

i have never even used the aim bind. i think it's kind of a nasty misuse of otherwise legitimate mouse sens options

02:47

it's ofc valid and okay to use it in ddrace, but i see how it complicates other modes

we could put min value to sth like 20 to fix it

ya it would be super easy

03:15

that may have been the "single-character" fix Tater said

It's true if tater says

i mean just add a leading character to the minimum value for cl_mouse_max_distance in the config file

03:52

but its in the game now and imo it makes double nades a little less annoying at some points, but other uses of it is kinda annoying (like using it on shotgun)

I think its a big enough advantage that many players would stay with old version if it was removed, I assume 0.7 also has it

Fireball-Teeworlds

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #5696 Add option for parallax-aware zoom

How this works

Assume that zoom is moving the camera closer/further away and scale layers consistent with parallax parameters.

Screenshots

Springlobe 3

!screenshot_2022-08-02_04-28-25 !screenshot_2022-08-02_04-28-19

Beyond Dreams

![screenshot2022-08-02...

Its hard to remove advantages for that reason I guess

Ya I'd never update, lining up double nades is annoying kek

kek

05:55

and triple ofc

Don't make teeworlds too ez xd

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue closed: #5695 Hammer Range Indication and Cheating

07:17

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue reopened: #5695 Hammer Range Indication and Cheating

Sry don't know how github works, accidentaly closed the issue

(edited)

kek

2

Skeith

Ya I'd never update, lining up double nades is annoying kek

kek

the solution isnt aim hack imo

funman

the solution isnt aim hack imo

True, ill try to think of a solution, this seems interesting

Angle binds can't be changed, nor would it feel good for high end players to change such things, it removes tedious parts of ddrace, it's more of a QoL at this point. Plenty of ranks heavily make use of angle bind, unrealistic to do without. It's quite literally a feature at this point

dumb argument, If the map has a tedious part you dont aimbot to make it easier, you probably just shouldnt accept the map with a tedious part

07:30

i really hate that no features are ever retconed in this game

Deal with it

I dont deal with cheaters

07:32

should be banned

It's been in the game since the start, can't really be removed

people said that it could, not that i know anything about coding

07:34

It should be imo or at least bannable from now on

I'd imagine it'd be impossible outside of forcing a specific client

07:35

You could remove it from new releases of the client, but people would stop updating

you could detect it in the same way you would detect an aimbot

Too complicated and messy

07:36

And old ranks exist, the next step would be to wipe all existing ranks and start new

i dont like the idea of allowing aimbot cause its too complicated to prevent it

Well one solution could be to have an indicator for when u are aiming 270° (kinda useless), the better solution would be to make grenade more forgiving, have the perfect direction downwards for a larger range of aiming angle then just one degree, f.e 265°-275°, bit of an allowance for players to make fast flicks with grenade without aimbot... (sadly this would either need a server tune function or a slight change of grenade physics)

Which this discussion has already been had, it's not really going to happen

wipe ranks that use it

What's an angle bind? The 45 degree bind?

Yes

How can you cheat with it?

it aims for you

It's a problem in pvp modes in very specific cases, I guess

Plenty of ranks heavily make use of angle bind, unrealistic to do without

Can you give an example?

sure, gimme a second

07:39

Most of the stop over maps by inner peace

noone can flick and get a perfect 270° aim, so thats why its kept in here, could be solved by what i said above imo a more "player" controlled option

If not all

murpi

Plenty of ranks heavily make use of angle bind, unrealistic to do without

Can you give an example?

if a rank makes heavy use of aimbot it shouldnt count

07:39

maybe thats a hot take

There's quite a few solo maps that make use of shotgun that are very hard to beat if you don't use angle bind, I'd imagine

funman

if a rank makes heavy use of aimbot it shouldnt count

he was quoting Skeith btw

ik

The vanilla client has this "feature", anyone can do it, so it's not really a cheat.

listen im sure many maps are easier with aimbot

07:40

meaningless

Every single teeworlds client allows use of angle bind

and its meaningless that vanilla has it

Skeith

Every single teeworlds client allows use of angle bind

doesnt mean we have to allow it

No point discussing with you

@funman go talk to ppl at the official teewords discord i guess... Changing it in ddnet would propably not resolve the issue u are having with shooting gamemodes

Idk doesnt matter anyways

07:42

i think ddnet should ban it in general in the same way botting is banned

07:43

and its up to the ictf community to do the same

07:43

but it will probably only ever be banned in our tournaments anyways

I think so too, but you need to consider stuff, first off all you cant really detect whether the bind was used, maybe possible with teehistorian after some tweaking idk whether it keeps such detailed data (edited)

Idk i just also really dont like the argument that it makes hard things easier to do

07:45

like maybe if something requires aimbot to do consistenly it shouldnt be in most maps

Skeith

Most of the stop over maps by inner peace

I don't see a good use case for the angle bind for those map

Ask @Shinoa for a demo

07:45

Or check the teehistorian yourself

funman

like maybe if something requires aimbot to do consistenly it shouldnt be in most maps

yep one tile with double or triple rocket is the only use i guess

They make heavy use of angle bind to do some crazy skips

07:46

I've watched Shinoa play it

TAS?

yeah but like i wouldnt argue for a feature that allows consistenty in doing like a 2 tile aled or somthing

funman

yeah but like i wouldnt argue for a feature that allows consistenty in doing like a 2 tile aled or somthing

aledbot

Skeith

They make heavy use of angle bind to do some crazy skips

then remove rank

Wouldn't be fair, everyone accepts it as a feature of the client, it's been known and allowed for years.

I get that they got the rank under the pretense of it being fair game

The fact that it's been here for a long time doesn't mean that it should stay...

but it isnt anymore

07:49

so rip bozo

Pointless topic imo, genuinely can't be touched, causes too many issues

Angle bind is important in the game, but it can only be limited to vertical and horizontal angles.

rip off the bandaid and dont look back

I wish, plenty of things I'd change about this game, but alas.

What do u think of my idea, it was ignored ...

i dont think you can change it to make it more forgiving

07:51

just say fuck it this is nearly impossible to do without bot

possible

I dont know if physics of the game should be changed

this would only work for grenade, and it could only be for ddnet servers

funman

just say fuck it this is nearly impossible to do without bot

You still haven't given an example

wym?

07:53

i dont play ddrace but skeith is saying the double nade or whatever is hard

he wants us to design maps without triple rocket if we need aimbot for it

bubliman

he wants us to design maps without triple rocket if we need aimbot for it

yeah

You said "Plenty of ranks heavily make use of angle bind, unrealistic to do without"

07:54

but instead of unrealistic, you said impossible

murpi

You said "Plenty of ranks heavily make use of angle bind, unrealistic to do without"

i didnt dude

07:54

im not @Skeith

It's not hard, it's just time consuming, once you've done a double nade thousands of times, you'd prefer if you could do it instantly, and it to be consistent. Usually it only gives a slight edge over someone not using it

Skeith

It's not hard, it's just time consuming, once you've done a double nade thousands of times, you'd prefer if you could do it instantly, and it to be consistent. Usually it only gives a slight edge over someone not using it

ok well i wish i would never miss shot in ictf

funman

i didnt dude

oh ops

ddrace isn't a pvp mode

so its cool if i download bot client then?

Get banned though

funman

ok well i wish i would never miss shot in ictf

adding aimbot > maps that rely on it > ranks that rely on it > remove it all?

its not a pvp mode tho

bubliman

adding aimbot > maps that rely on it > ranks that rely on it > remove it all?

ig

@Skeith #8

It has rules just like every other mode, depends on the server

07:57

Ya ya

maps can stay i guess, they should just be rated higher, and get their ranks wiped

07:58

if this were to happen, i've use the aimbot bind myself and i understand why its nice to have it in race f.e

bubliman

maps can stay i guess, they should just be rated higher, and get their ranks wiped

yeah i think that makes sense

ok, rn the aim bind has a 45 deg snap in all directions, imo should be reduced to upward direction and the snap should be smaller significantly 10deg 20deg 15deg something like that

08:03

also make it only usable with rocket equipped?

08:06

good to make the bind more user friendly aswell

08:07

the other direction would be to remove it entierly making ddnet the hardcore game that it is i guess

but the thing is the bind takes advantage of your cursor proximity to your tee, since its so close it forces itself to be quantized

08:07

so changing it is kind of. impossible?

yeah, remove that "glitch" and make an actual feature that is balanced and user friendly with a new method

It's similar to the weak / strong debate, it's been in the game since the beginning, it can't be changed

08:09

No point discussing it further

08:09

It's too late

08:10

If we ever start new, be sure to bring it up

if we start new, itd probably have a lot changed

Skeith

It's too late

Image attachment

Also forcing it is a problem, as I said previously, would have plenty of complications

forcing it as in the physics thing? i agree, should be bindable with the "aim snap" but should be a way smaller angle

08:13

no physics change required, just an input assist

As in probably half the community uses outdated clients

Skeith

As in probably half the community uses outdated clients

proof?

I'm a moderator, I eyeball clients quite often

08:14

Definitely not half, but a good chunk

i think deen made a graph of who uses which client

Ya

08:16

Also you'd literally have to force the client onto people, or have an antibot that is prone to false positives, and deen really hates false positives

no need to ban it globally, just ban it for top position ranks?

08:23

is it possible for teehistorian to see these values +toggle cl_mouse_max_distance 2 VALUE1; +toggle inp_mousesens 1 VALUE2"?

‍♂️

Anyone knows good host services for tw server?

yair

Anyone knows good host services for tw server?

What do u mean by services?

yair

Anyone knows good host services for tw server?

For which location?

Like site that offer hosting

Nora

For which location?

Ger, fre

yeah there was a free site, i just dont remember the link ...

08:36

oh u want to pay, well ask deen i guess

It dont have to be free, just something good

yair

It dont have to be free, just something good

kimsufi

Image attachment

08:40

They have this locations

K i will check it thanks

I recommend getting the 10 euro one.

Image attachment

08:43

I'm sure you can find cheaper than this but ovheco is really cheap compared to its performance.

Looks great thanks

yair

Ger, fre

Hetzner

Ddnet would defs be better without 90° bind or autohammer from freeze.. Now it's too late, but they feel like unintended cheats to a game that's very skill based. Doesn't fit

Jupstar ✪

Ddnet would defs be better without 90° bind or autohammer from freeze.. Now it's too late, but they feel like unintended cheats to a game that's very skill based. Doesn't fit

hmm, autohammer from freeze removed would get rid of that both double jump fly from freeze meta, that would be lovely xD

10:17

but i havent played the game when that was introduced, so I don't have the same feeling like u

Anyone got the mobile ddrace download link?

Deleted User

Anyone got the mobile ddrace download link?

here is a reddit post about it https://www.reddit.com/r/ddnet/comments/mgg0ml/how_do_i_download_ddrace_to_the_phone/

r/ddnet - how do i download ddrace to the phone??

3 votes and 8 comments so far on Reddit

Ty

Jupstar ✪

Ddnet would defs be better without 90° bind or autohammer from freeze.. Now it's too late, but they feel like unintended cheats to a game that's very skill based. Doesn't fit

90° bind worked since Vanilla Teeworlds. Autohammer was being used by pros spamming keys all the time (some even with automated tools) and it missing made the gameplay really inconsistent. Super annoying for speed running

@Jupstar ✪ have now pushed a new version of twgpu, now with the tilemap optimization, documentation and READMEs :)

11:23

the tilemap optimization seems to work really good btw, I'm curious how high the performance increase is that your tools will measure

11:25

https://gitlab.com/Patiga/twgpu

11:26

hm the docs seem to take a bit to generate

11:26

the tools are now also on crates.io https://crates.io/crates/twgpu-tools

11:27

ah, docs are up now https://docs.rs/twgpu/latest/twgpu/

heh, for the tilemap optimization I missed the edge case with parallax 0 groups not getting zoomed

deen

90° bind worked since Vanilla Teeworlds. Autohammer was being used by pros spamming keys all the time (some even with automated tools) and it missing made the gameplay really inconsistent. Super annoying for speed running

Yes that doesn't change the fact it sucks. I know they exist since ever... Sadly

Patiga

the tilemap optimization seems to work really good btw, I'm curious how high the performance increase is that your tools will measure

The bounding box or smtj else ?

bounding box

Ok will test later

thanks :)

11:48

ofc it also depends on the map, my selection is a bit random

@Patiga is https://mapview.patiga.eu/ up to date? I find it quite laggy

yes it is, the performance in the browser isn't that great

11:53

which browser are you using, and which gpu do you have?

laptop gtx 1050, firefox ~ 20fps on lavender, and just tested chrome, it's 40fps

11:57

ah nvm it was using the integrated gpu

11:58

but wtf I get 10fps on chrome on the nvidia gpu

11:59

But I get better perfs on my webgl renderer so I guess it has to do with the cost of the wasm layer

my renderer does tilemaps very differently, that has a rather big performance impact

ah you prob solve the mipmapping issue I have and I don't want to fix

I don't actually have mipmaps yet ^^

Jupstar ✪

Yes that doesn't change the fact it sucks. I know they exist since ever... Sadly

We can't remove it because people can just keep using old client. So everything that was already in official client is by definition allowed

12:06

@Patiga after zooming out too much I can't zoom in anymore

oh nice find

deen

We can't remove it because people can just keep using old client. So everything that was already in official client is by definition allowed

we could probably try to remove it if we came up with a plan

12:08

e.g. by gating new features behind "not having the possibility of this bind"

12:08

at some point, people would not longer want to use the old client, because the new one is a lot better

deen

@Patiga after zooming out too much I can't zoom in anymore

had to add a + 1 somewhere oop

oop

deen

We can't remove it because people can just keep using old client. So everything that was already in official client is by definition allowed

That also wasnt my plan. But we talking about adding new cheats.. Once added we have to live them

Yeah, so we have to discuss and decide before implementing

or accept that we could remove features in the future, and also discuss that ^^

12:13

or put the feature behind a flag that is controlled by the server

I don't get the fuss about the angle bind

it's obviously a gameplay improvement over not having it

12:16

it's also not really well integrated into the client, you need to look at out-of-game resources to find it

12:16

I guess it's the combination of these two?

No, the concern is u do things which are unrealistic

12:17

you can do*

murpi

I don't get the fuss about the angle bind

Since its there u are basically forced to use it to keep up in skill

murpi

I don't get the fuss about the angle bind

I thought that this was a question, my bad

And that sucks

Jupstar ✪

Since its there u are basically forced to use it to keep up in skill

Where? When? Why forced to use it?

Bcs speedrunners abuse it hard

12:18

And u nevef as good in aiming

Where? When?

Jupstar feels like people play better in some ways when using the angle bind

U want to tell me u can aim up 100% of time?

probably e.g. when double rocketjumping ^^

You can't do that without a bind?

I probably can't do that without the bind (haven't used the bind so far)

12:20

the 100% of the time, straight up

it's perhaps more that the bind guarantees a higher success rate?

murpi

No, the concern is u do things which are unrealistic

aiming up perfectly in 1 ms in unrealistic without the bind

The bind is just a convenient way to aim up in a straight line, nothing else

12:21

if you aim abit to the left or right, you adjust by moving

you don't think that the bind makes it easier to aim straight up? (edited)

It does, but Jupstar says people are literally forced to use it

12:21

and other people aswell

he did not say literally

12:21

he also added a condition

12:22

could you argue in good faith please? i.e. try to understand what Jupstar means

That's just me not reading properly

@murpi you aren't being forced but when you get all the way to triple nades it gets unrealistic for most people

For most people, yes probably. However, the places or maps where you do have to triple grenade are run maps most of the time and I can tell you out of experience, you don't need the bind there either

I can do a triple nade too, but it'll take me atleast like 10 tries to get it straight enough. Maybe if I played a lot more run maps I could get it down to 2-3 tries. The reason I called it more of a "cheat" than everything else mentioned was that it'd take me dozens of hours to get good enough when people can skip the effort

12:33

Eitherway, it's not a real cheat. We already all agreed it's accepted

Every speedrun game I play has a discussion like this.

12:34

and it all depends on things done with alias and bind

12:35

for example in bhop mode this kind of thing is now considered acceptable

Learath2

I can do a triple nade too, but it'll take me atleast like 10 tries to get it straight enough. Maybe if I played a lot more run maps I could get it down to 2-3 tries. The reason I called it more of a "cheat" than everything else mentioned was that it'd take me dozens of hours to get good enough when people can skip the effort

I can tell you how to shoot straight up almost always without the bind

Teach me master

Just use touchscreen instead of mouse

Learath2

Teach me master

You configure your mouse sens and distance similar to the aim bind, but instead, you use a high enough mouse sensitivity which allows you to flick fast and a distance which doesn't restrict your aim to much (edited)

12:53

This method has the same effect similar to the aimbind, but doesn't restrict your aim to 8 directions (edited)

murpi

This method has the same effect similar to the aimbind, but doesn't restrict your aim to 8 directions (edited)

Heres one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPaycNkviI runners used to play with extreme high sensitivty and spin/flick to aim

Teeworlds : run_blue TAS in 6.631

13:14

okey.. thats a TAS

13:15

sigh, it's crazy how difficult it is to find any run videos nowadays

murpi

Heres one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPaycNkviI runners used to play with extreme high sensitivty and spin/flick to aim

yes thats the same issue, this is Tool Assisted Speedrunning as the video sudgests and should not be a part of DDnet's normal gameplay

murpi

okey.. thats a TAS

oh ok, but still, even the bind for cardinal aim, is a tool that assists your speedrun

bubliman

oh ok, but still, even the bind for cardinal aim, is a tool that assists your speedrun

The point is you can aim straight without a bind ^^

13:20

consistently

murpi

You configure your mouse sens and distance similar to the aim bind, but instead, you use a high enough mouse sensitivity which allows you to flick fast and a distance which doesn't restrict your aim to much (edited)

You are saying that you've got a different method and that you don't need the bind, because you have a replacement. I'm not sure how your method works exactly but isn't it also too op?

13:21

The argument is that if TAS runs are allowed, then it becomes a TAS category, and everyone starts using the tool, because why would they bother without it.

13:22

If hypothetically the aim bind was removed your method for consistent aiming might have to be patched....

heinrich5991

e.g. by gating new features behind "not having the possibility of this bind"

I agree that this would be awesome, but someone could just make their own client with the bind inside and the newest features from ddnet.... Not sure how you could Gate an opensource client (edited)

13:34

But i guess it could have a partial effect, since that unofficial client is not going to have the same number of users.

Playing with high sensitivty is just another way to aim, you can see people with extreme sensitivity in pvp modes all the time

13:36

with the side effect of being able to aim straight in any direction

bubliman

The argument is that if TAS runs are allowed, then it becomes a TAS category, and everyone starts using the tool, because why would they bother without it.

sorry, no idea what you're talking about here

murpi

sorry, no idea what you're talking about here

Okay well let me rephrase, automated input (aim bind) = cheating, bad gameplay, competitive advantage why is aim bind automated? well it takes the imprecise input of a player and approximates it into precise cardinal angles 45 degrees

its more of an exploit than automation

13:45

its like saying the deepfly bind is also cheating

well we allow that on dummy, but technically two players would have a hard time hammering each other perfectly every time. Dummy automated input are not as broken because with a dummy you can only be faster on certain maps (edited)

deen

@Patiga after zooming out too much I can't zoom in anymore

fix is now pushed and live :)

[ddnet-web:master] 1 new commit

40b0b66 3571 - def-

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

Just use touchscreen instead of mouse

@louis

justatest

@Patiga btw u should git ignore cargo.lock i guess? sounds like a file that is just used to check deps and got pull conflicts xd

I think you should always check in your Cargo.lock because it gives you reproducible builds

weird that it got changed on my site then

14:49

maybe bcs i use rust nightly?

heinrich5991

I think you should always check in your Cargo.lock because it gives you reproducible builds

(even for libraries, against the recommendation of the documentation)

Jupstar ✪

weird that it got changed on my site then

link to the pull request?

not pull request i mean i did git pull

14:51

on twgpu

aah

14:51

can you show your local changes?

14:51

it's weird that you got some

or did u force push once patiga?

yes

ok then its probs just that

but how does that have something to do with Cargo.lock?

perhaps a merge conflict when the same commit containing Cargo.lock was added twice?

@heinrich5991 why is .lock needed tho? I mean the .toml stuff already contains versioning, is there smth important in Cargo.lock?

14:58

@Patiga btw the html stuff still fails:

error[E0432]: unresolved import `web_sys::HtmlCanvasElement`
  --> map-inspect-web/src/lib.rs:11:15
   |
11 | use web_sys::{HtmlCanvasElement, Response};
   |               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ no `HtmlCanvasElement` in the root

i wonder how this can happen, i mean its version safe, u should get the same error shouldnt u? xd or is this some weird $PATH stuff

Cargo.toml contains versions like serde = "1.0"

14:59

i.e. "any version like 1.x.y is compatible with this project"

mh ok

Cargo.lock contains "serde was compiled with version 1.0.132, with hash 0123456789abcdef"

its in the project readme ^^, map-inspect-web only compiles to wasm, so it fails if you do things like cargo build in the project root, since that will try to build it for your default target build instructions are in the map-inspect-web readme

ok i see, still feels weird, since it kinda looks like some package manager cache :D, but i get your point about reproducability

npm and yarn have a similar lockfile

yeah but e.g. for npm i would not include it to git

You should. I think it’s even suggested in the documentation

so everytime someone runs npm update u get merge conflicts

15:04

sounds annoying xd

Hm, why would you get a merge conflict? For that you’d both need to run npm update

doesnt sound impossible in a bigger project to me

(I'd not include an npm update in an unrelated commit)

but anyway, if they suggest it, maybe it makes sense

15:06

i just dont understand it xd

Think of it like how we update libraries. If both of us change the version of libcurl we’d get a merge conflict too

from https://docs.npmjs.com/cli/v8/configuring-npm/package-lock-json:

This file is intended to be committed into source repositories, […]

15:07

I guess the difference is the amount of dependencies

its just weird to have versioning + exact version

15:07

why not just use the exact version in first place xD

for end products, exact versions are fine

15:08

but for libraries that won't work because they're going to depend on different versions and then they can't be merged

15:08

(only the end product's Cargo.lock is adhered to)

heinrich5991

for end products, exact versions are fine

so why not include it in the end product only

so you have reproducible builds on developer machines and CI, basically

15:09

it's possible to not have it, but IME it's worth it

15:09

especially if you want to go back to an old version and see what it looked like

mh ok, e.g. for ddnet we dont do it (obviously) since its distro dependent, (almost no versioning at all), so it just felt weird that .toml atleast contains major and minor already, but then have a .lock additionally But if there are sceneraios where its useful ok

15:12

@Patiga do u still have our last results? ^^

uh I'm not sure if you wrote exact numbers, I remember correcting my fps counts here https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/998288792014291137

Patiga

yes, thats another big factor I think

@Patiga ah yeah now i remember

15:17

from here: "randeontop" was mentioned xd

https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/995226808314241035

15:18

ah yea thats from the same session

the overall performance seemed to decreased

Image attachment

15:19

but less work on GPU for sure

that surprises me a lot

no idea why it cannot max out my gpu anymore

yea thats what I wanted to ask, didn't expect that

have u added stuff CPU side?

yes a bit, the bounding box for the tilemaps in particular

15:21

but I didn't think it would be much tbh

well maybe it runs in a CPU bottleneck now

15:21

u could add CPU side FPS

15:21

or is 1 frame = 1 frame on CPU?

15:21

like 1 frame is also always called on GPU

ah, there are also a lot of calls to set_scissors_rect now, maybe I should figure out if that is significant

15:22

I'm not sure what you mean, I count the frames on the cpu

Patiga

yes a bit, the bounding box for the tilemaps in particular

I guess you calculate the bounding box once and at most do some intersection each frame (on the cpu)?

ddnet for comparission in case of driver updates

Image attachment

yes, each frame the intersection for each layer

15:24

*tilemap layer

15:25

that is back in time 3, right?

yes

15:25

its a huge map, is that bad? xd

should be fine I think

notice the clock too

15:27

old version maxes it out, new version 2.1 ghz, ddnet 1.6ghz

shouldn't the cpu usage of the process be 100% of one core then? or could io be the bottleneck otherwise?

i sadly dont have the old version

15:28

what was the commit?

directly before the optimization af287711126e8a98e1cee21b0209c78177b4abbc

15:29

before some of the major refactors inbetween: 9ee24a0ce268969cd8724c9360d197d0c11d1b92

sadly the schedular doesnt use 1core only, whats the environment flag on linux for that? XD

Image attachment

15:29

but from CPU usage, it's around 1 full core yeah

15:31

taskset -c 1

taskset --cpu-list 1 <command>

15:31

Image attachment

15:32

now i try the old version

15:35

directly before, fps is almost the same btw in this, now i try the 9ee commit

Image attachment

15:36

cpu usage is a bit higher, few hunreds FPS more

Image attachment

15:36

but not even close to last time with 4.5k, i think my GPU got a nice downgrade xDD

here you talked about 3.5k at some point, maybe it was just always around that number https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/995226808314241035

ah yeah fullscreen makes difference too, true

15:38

in ddnet i get 10k in fullscreen only, no idea wtf happens xD

15:38

probs direct scanout

but the tests now were all with about the same resolution?

yeah, randeontop on left, and other stuff right

15:39

but let me quickly install the mesa version i had back then

15:39

quite possible that changes smth

15:43

ah nice

15:44

now i have 1k fps more with mesa 21.1 xD

Jupstar ✪

the overall performance seemed to decreased

here you also have around ~3.650, around 150 fps less than the last screenshot the cpu usage with current and directly before the optimization were 5% apart with the same fps, with about the same fps maybe this indicates that some of the refactors I did before took a hit on the fps

15:44

hmmmm

starting from the old commit now wait

15:44

old commit

Image attachment

15:45

100% on 1 core, 6k fps

old commit is 9ee24a0ce268969cd8724c9360d197d0c11d1b92 ? (the one before the major refactors)

yes

15:47

but let me recheck just for safety xd

15:48

ok my command line says git:9ee24a0*

15:48

blame that if its wrong

^^

Jupstar ✪

old commit

ok i guess this is the new commit then @Patiga

15:51

gg xd

15:51

tho i still dont get my 4.5k fps on the old version really weird

Image attachment

hm this second result would be ~ +50% fps in that particular location

15:52

if I read the values correctly

i just wonder wtf happened to mesa 22. that the difference is so insane

yes that is really odd

the shader file is 100% always recompiled?

15:53

not that there is cache problems xD

it is stored into the binary at compile time

let me redo the radeontop

https://docs.rs/wgpu/0.13.1/src/wgpu/macros.rs.html#57 here is the macro I use to include the shader, it uses include_bytes! on the path https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/macro.include_bytes.html this is the rust docs about it, I must say it confused me after reading the first line, but its just static including

Image attachment

97% graphics pipeline (is that equivalent to 100%?), ~6150 fps

15:59

on master?

the GPU clocks a bit higher this the new version

16:00

but i assume its around 100%

16:00

the geometry/vertex cores are used more heavily, is that the bounding box?

Embedded image

or the simple fact that the fragment shader is soo much less

bounding box is pure cpu work, except for the scissor discarding

Im currently trying to learn/understand the protocol

but anyway for this map it seems to work out well, guess this is a good case then?

i do some heavy printing of the raw bytes with some annotations. Any chance that could be merged into ddnet with some #ifdef dependent prepropcessor things?

do u except similar perf, if the bounding box is equal to the actual layer size?

sorry for hijacking the conversation didnt realize this was ongoing :D

you are in the top-left area of the map, that might be a good spot for the optimization

ok

just saw that I left the debug print in, the output tells you the bounding boxes of the different layers

16:03

its just tile coordinates

Image attachment

16:03

let me zoom then

zoom could be even better for the optimization ^^

16:03

the middle of the map should be the worst I think

16:04

oh wow the fps dropped that much? how can that be o.o

similar fps now

Image attachment

what versions are those 2 screenshots?

16:05

is memory locality such a big thing? I don't understand why the fps is that low

16:05

part of the fps difference could be fullscreen, although I would've thought that the fps zoomed that far out should be very good

ChillerDragon: what about putting that into a dissector instead? (edited)

Writing dissectors is a bit too hard for me trust me i tried

16:07

I find it really helpful integrated into the application logs

have you considered using the existing dissector at https://github.com/heinrich5991/libtw2/tree/1b63ee7a740888b48234a9497b07efa44e4fe354/wireshark-dissector ?

When compiled conditionally it does not add any overhead to release binarys just grows the code base

16:08

yes ofc i tried all dissectors but non of the code makes sense to me

Patiga

what versions are those 2 screenshots?

firtst is new, other is 9ee smth

what code does not make sense to you?

but sure i would appreciate a lot if you would continue working on your dissector. I think it does not support 0.7 yet am i right?

it does not support 0.7

hm yes zooming far out also drops the fps for me significantly, although I don't see a big reason for it. maybe memory locality is actually important o.o

@heinrich5991 its just too overwhealming for me to read through your code and figure out how to add 0.7

16:10

so i started to add some dbg msgs to vanilla and and it worked pretty wel

Jupstar ✪

firtst is new, other is 9ee smth

that would only make sense to me if it is very cpu-bound in the new version, could you check that with this driver version once more? or should the earlier measurements still be accurate?

i think it would be cool to have that in the application code as well. But if you say that the added code adds unnecessary complexity to the code base thats ok

Just a quick question, why does the source code use uppercase letter for first word in variables? how it is: int TestInteger how it should be: int testInteger

i squeezed pretty much all of it in two PrintPacket() function calls

ah yeah new commit https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/1004052182343098468, old commit https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/1004053915395964928 last test

@bubliman how it should be is defined by the code author and the teeworlds code styling guide

Okay, makes it hard to tell apart classes and variables, whatever thanks

your syntax highlighter should cover that part for you

ChillerDragon: can you link your changes?

https://github.com/teeworlds/documentation/blob/master/nomenclature.md

@bubliman classes always start with a capital C

https://github.com/ChillerDragon/teeworlds/tree/hacking-on-protocol

CClient → class Client → variable

https://github.com/ChillerDragon/teeworlds/blob/hacking-on-protocol/src/engine/shared/network.cpp#L447-L564

github embeds are pretty useless

heinrich5991

CClient → class Client → variable

oh okay, thanks

could be in its own file only two calls to it needed

permanent link: https://github.com/ChillerDragon/teeworlds/blob/0834950017aaf50ca2b3b5b196fa34b60f206656/src/engine/shared/network.cpp#L447-L564

and a few helpers in system.c https://github.com/ChillerDragon/teeworlds/blob/0834950017aaf50ca2b3b5b196fa34b60f206656/src/base/system.c#L2508-L2658

that really looks like it should be a dissector

yea

16:17

sure

you could try writing your own

hrmpf

@heinrich5991 has anything come out of this ? https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=11490

or: there's packet logging in ddnet, you could take that as input files

bubliman

@heinrich5991 has anything come out of this ? https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=11490

no

heinrich5991

no

so there is no effort to make any documentation?

Patiga

that would only make sense to me if it is very cpu-bound in the new version, could you check that with this driver version once more? or should the earlier measurements still be accurate?

its with mesa 21, same that also gives 6k fps

bubliman

so there is no effort to make any documentation?

that's correct

16:19

you could start if you want. there's a little documentation in a couple of files, but it's really only a start

maybe the bounding boxes are really good for the map after all?

16:19

and smth else gives the FPS boost?

16:19

or did u also do "smaller" bounding boxes

16:19

for lot of unused space inside a layer

right now every tilemap layer has exactly one bounding box. not sure how that could be

16:20

expanded, maybe a quad tree?

16:20

like if we do n bounding boxes, it doesn't really seem trivial how to select them

16:21

but I guess if it is cpu-bound right now, we'd need to look elsewhere for optimization ^^

16:21

btw do you have a nvidia alternative to radeontop?

no idea if that exists

16:22

i only know about radeontop bcs i googled htop for amd xdd

heh

16:23

hmm, "nvidia htop" also gives results, maybe I could try out a few

radeontop nvidia xdd

I heard of nvtop already, but that that doesn't give a lot of info

Im not sure if documentation is a good trade of right now. It would slow down development to keep documentation up dated. And most of the documentation versions would never be read by anyone since there are not that many developers.

@Patiga btw did you update the wgpu dependency version or smth?

yes

will it work with the old version?

the 'old' commit is the commit where I updated

I think documentation is worth it, I don't think documentation slows down development

ah ok

if you want you could step back one more commit and take an earlier version

yeah could see if i finally get my 4.5k fps xD

16:30

but actually doesnt matter, the GPU usage went down in your optimized build, and i assume that simply comes from your bounding box change, but no idea why this shouldnt also increase it when zooming out, would atleast make sense

I think documenting the particularly nuanced sections of code would be helpful (edited)

heinrich5991

I think documentation is worth it, I don't think documentation slows down development

Me too I have barely dipped my feet into c++ and ddnet code, but once I understand how Teeworlds works. I would definitely be interested in starting to work on some level of documentation.

https://github.com/heinrich5991/libtw2/tree/master/doc there is some documentation about file formats/the protocol in here

1

@Jupstar ✪ we seem to have really differently balanced setups. my graphics card is probably underpowered for the rest of my computer before the refactors, I get at that top-left-ish portion of the map, a little zoomed out around 3150 fps, with 27% cpu usage on master, I get 4600 fps there with ~36% cpu usage

whats ur gpu again?

with my built-in fps count (was that accurate after the change btw?)

16:41

1060 3GB

wtf ok

16:41

why does that GPU even get so high FPS xd

is the fps counter correct now btw?

did u device by 5? xd

16:42

its still 5 times as high

aaaaaaah

16:42

god damnit I fixed that at some point

ah wait i also was on old version

probably didn't find a good commit for it and git restored it at some point

let me recheck

16:43

ok but still

yes I'm just gonna print fps each second :d

16:44

but percentage wise it should still be correct

16:44

about 50% more fps, 40% more cpu usage

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

@bubliman how it should be is defined by the code author and the teeworlds code styling guide

cant find any styling guide, does that exist as a readable file?

Patiga

about 50% more fps, 40% more cpu usage

ok but i also have similar values

I think ChillerDragon linked some

but on my setup the cpu usage is irrelevant coz the graphics card bottlenecks hard

ye i did

@Patiga yeah ok my GPU is OP

16:47

also GPU perf tends to increase more than CPU

16:47

1060 is relativly old already

aye, I do get mine to struggle in some games already, might need to upgrade some time

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

and a few helpers in system.c https://github.com/ChillerDragon/teeworlds/blob/0834950017aaf50ca2b3b5b196fa34b60f206656/src/base/system.c#L2508-L2658

>and a few helpers in system.c https://github.com/ChillerDragon/teeworlds/blob/0834950017aaf50ca2b3b5b196fa34b60f206656/src/base/system.c#L2508-L2658 that? (edited)

i dont see replys

in 7 days rtx 4090 will probs be announced xDD

https://github.com/teeworlds/documentation/blob/master/nomenclature.md

ChillerDragon, 7 days to invest in nvidia xd

Jupstar ✪

also GPU perf tends to increase more than CPU

the performance on mine doesn't increase that quickly happy

happy

https://github.com/teeworlds/documentation/blob/master/nomenclature.md

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

https://github.com/teeworlds/documentation/blob/master/nomenclature.md

thx

what does the + sign mean in irc usernames

"Null pointers Use 0 or 0x0 instead of NULL. Because Teeworlds uses C++03, nullptr does not work either." wtf xDD

it means they have "voice"

thats the weirdest suggestion ever

(+v)

16:50

if the channel is moderated (+m), people without +v can't speak (edited)

cant get my gnome terminal transparent anymore can someone send his fav terminal emulator pls

I use xfce4-terminal

kvantum with kde is best

16:50

can custimize anything

16:51

gnome sucks anyway bro xd

16:51

are u a tablet or what

wot

the ui looks like it was made for tablets xD

how smart is it to use xfce or kde emulator with gnome? xd

Jupstar ✪

kvantum with kde is best

that doesn't seem to be a terminal?

heinrich5991

that doesn't seem to be a terminal?

but it can customize anything

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

how smart is it to use xfce or kde emulator with gnome? xd

that's no problem, I think

including ur terminal D:

gnome terminal is dope they just removed the aur package that made it transparent

xd

Embedded image

16:55

well out of the box xfce4 looks a bit unpleasent compared to gnome

where's the difference?

16:57

the menu bar and font size?

the menu bar colors look bad and does not hide

ah

it doesnt take my theme so it looks a bit off

16:57

i prefer the look and edges of the gnome one

16:58

i guess font and colors can be fixed

(you can disable the menu bar)

yea that looks abit better

16:58

how to make it transparent? :)

idk ^^ sorry

17:00

I didn't realize that's the requirement

17:00

(I don't have windows on top of each other)

hrhr i3 masterrace

17:01

how do you know when to react in tw when being in the terminal then?

17:02

jopstar how to start kvantum?

17:02

xd

konsole

Image attachment

17:02

transparent af

tw not fullscreen, or tw on a separate screen (edited)

no idea if that works on gnome tho

17:02

since kde uses qt

i installed kvantum but only thing i find is a kvantum manager

yeah maybe u can even do it without see my screenshot

no terminal emulator

17:05

i cant spawn a terminal ur screenshot is only settings

konsole

a

its called like that xD

could have started with that xd

17:06

41 packages

17:06

:D

ez

Embedded image

17:06

now thats even uglier xd

in case u switch to kde to have best desktop, arch purple is an awesome theme, tho i use different icon pack, bcs they suck xd

im so used to gnome xd

well its an KDE app

gnome just looks hot out of the box

u have 100000000000 settings

17:07

just look around u can disable most stuff xD

17:08

also bash is default

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

cant get my gnome terminal transparent anymore can someone send his fav terminal emulator pls

urxvt, kitty, alacrity. I use all 3 on different machines. All 3 are pretty good

if u sed zsh u have to change that too

bash masterrace

zsh has some nice addons, but bash is solid af

I like fish

I've been using fish on mac and I can recommend it

17:10

Though I still use bash on my desktop mostly because I haven't gotten around to installing fish :D

17:10

Fish is much more friendly for interactive operation from what I've seen so far

i prefer writing bash scripts instead of having a friendly shell xd

ez

i like the apple approach more then kde

17:12

look good by default and no settings

FBI

i prefer writing bash scripts instead of having a friendly shell xd

17:12

i like the apple approach more then kde

but it doesnt look good xddd

Apple approach is making everything closed source, uncustomisable, you sure? :D

17:13

You know what looks excellent? Out of the box urxvt256 and out of the box bspwm

17:13

No bells, no whistles

wat dis?

17:14

ur emulator

17:15

cant find urxvt256 in the aur wat dis

17:15

heinrich what are those quotes? xd

so did the transparency setting work on gnome?

17:16

u have to edit your profile -> color, edit transparency

I think the package is called rxvt-unicode in arch

17:16

And I think it's in the normal repository. Dont need aur

is it a emulator?=

17:19

didnt have time to deep dive kde settings yet

17:22

okok transparency works but it looks bad xd https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1659460924.png

Embedded image

17:22

all the white borders

17:23

i want tw console als my terminal emulator -.-

you can probably get there with the kde terminal ^^

time to switch back to mac

17:24

xd

do me a favour and make m2 work flawless on linux xd

the thing you're looking for is 'quake like terminal' btw

then apple isnt as useless

17:25

lets face it

wats m2

chillerdragon wants a terminal inside ddnet

that too!

apple m2

but id also take the terminal outside of ddnet

is apple m1 + 1

17:26

xd

the chip?

yes

u wanna install linux on mac hardware? xd

17:26

but then i dont get the mac terminal xd

i mean the hardware seems for for laptops

17:27

but macos sucks xd

wot

ChillerDragon: maybe this? https://github.com/Guake/guake

macos bae

yeah sucks xddd

ah heinrich u got me wrong

17:28

its more about the looks than the dropdown functionallity

17:28

i prefer fullscreen over dropdown

17:28

but i really care about nice design

17:28

the ingame terminal just looks hot!

17:28

no white edges or menus

17:30

dont tell me thats what your terminal looks like @Learath2 https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1659461433.png

Embedded image

arent u the white lord of white themes?

tru

17:31

but not in my terminal

17:31

unless im in the sun

17:32

at least there is no menu ... but look at the scroll bar xd

17:32

Embedded image

17:32

gnome scrollbar is so hot

17:34

heueueu there is a aur archive

17:34

how smart is it to install that?

[quakenet] ChillerDragon

dont tell me thats what your terminal looks like @Learath2 https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1659461433.png

No, you change colors in your .Xresources. I'm surprised you havent customised that yet :D

im vanilla

ez i installed this https://github.com/aur-archive/gnome-terminal-transparent and got transparent gnome back. But thanks guys for sharing

GitHub - aur-archive/gnome-terminal-transparent

Contribute to aur-archive/gnome-terminal-transparent development by creating an account on GitHub.

ChillerDragon: Add this in backend_sdl.cpp ::Init SDL_SetWindowOpacity(Window, 0.2f) then u real pro

17:55

not terminal is transparent but ddnet xd

thats nice so i can quickly tab out of ddnet and let my mates fall into spikes when my terminal ncurses app in the background rings an alert

xD

we need transparency option in settings!

definitely, every color that exists in client needs setting xd

17:59

maybe we need a color mapping UI

18:00

that automatically lists all colors

or i need a terminal emulator that catches keypresses when not being focussed. Aka a keylogger. Then i make ddnet transparent and control my terminal in the bacgkground xd

would be cool IMO

18:00

custom designs ez

ddnet should auto detect KDE themes!

yeah

xd

18:00

keeworlds

lets drop support for anything except kde and amdgpu

oof

18:01

what about windows? xd

what?

18:01

what is windows

notin

ok gud

OMG

18:02

NOW I CANT CLICK LINKS ANYMORE

18:02

why is this so cursed

try RECHTS

ok fak dis shit

18:03

tomorrow ima compile gnome terminal from src

18:05

omg i accidentally uninstalled all terminals :D (sent from my tty thingy)

18:06

how do i get back to my graphical session again?

alt-f7 usually

yea but i pressed 1-7 already 7 only goes to last if u didnt mess up

18:08

f1 worked for me :) but i had to relogin

18:08

yay i somehow got transparent plus link clicking now

@Ryozuki this java bloat better than gogs and gitlab? https://github.com/theonedev/onedev

use this https://sourcehut.org/

sourcehut - the hacker's forge

sourcehut is a network of useful open source tools for software project maintainers and collaborators, including git repos, bug tracking, continuous integration, and mailing lists.

18:29

self hosted

why star java then?

18:39

didnt we all agree on hating java?

@Ryozuki do you have any good sources about if im just starting out rust?

idk about rust as a first lang

19:08

but there is nothing better than https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/

The Rust Programming Language - The Rust Programming Language

Yep

Sneaky affiliate link

1

wtf

19:41

while trying to make a rust program run i was searching online and found this website http://www.libsdl.org/

19:41

Image attachment

Voxel

Click to see attachment 🖼️

huh, nice

19:46

they took it from steam

wtfff

Image attachment

I want to change something in the ddnet server but im too lazy to find it, in what file u put the value in the score (not the pPlayer class var, where u set it after all the calcs and stuff)

Voxel

wtfff

looks like the c++ linker trying to statically link sdl (.lib) when you want to dynamically link it (.dll) your rust sdl bindings probably have docs for that

sounds more like its simply missing xd

20:12

you do use .lib for .dll linking

maybe I can try working on 0.7 support in the dissector, ChillerDragon

k2d222

looks like the c++ linker trying to statically link sdl (.lib) when you want to dynamically link it (.dll) your rust sdl bindings probably have docs for that

idk how to set that up i just started this an hour ago

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #5697 Disable Dummy on Solo Maps

add it to sv_solo_server 1 to prevent multiple finishes we cant just players_per_ip 1 cause of timeout

Voxel

idk how to set that up i just started this an hour ago

Jupstar is right you do need a sdl.lib file somewhere in the linker path. You prob have to copy it somewhere to be visible by the compiler, or add it to you path env variable idk

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue closed: #5695 Hammer Range Indication and Cheating

yair

I want to change something in the ddnet server but im too lazy to find it, in what file u put the value in the score (not the pPlayer class var, where u set it after all the calcs and stuff)

Anyone?

yair

Anyone?

Can't you just find it yourself?

Put some comments on your code then i will try

22:29

Literally 0 comments

Well sadly there is no documentation (Needs to be imo...), I would recommend getting a good IDE that can search the whole project for lines, that way you can easily get what you need without asking here.

I did, still it send to so many functions that send you to other ones and i really not gonna waste so much time just to find 1 line

22:34

So asked if someone here does know where it is

I don't, and the people who do are probably sleeping, so I recommend going to bed. Good night! zzzz

zzzz

didnt expect to answer rn, gn anyways just gonna leave it

bubliman

Well sadly there is no documentation (Needs to be imo...), I would recommend getting a good IDE that can search the whole project for lines, that way you can easily get what you need without asking here.

You can also use https://ddnet.tw/codebrowser/

k2d222

Jupstar is right you do need a sdl.lib file somewhere in the linker path. You prob have to copy it somewhere to be visible by the compiler, or add it to you path env variable idk

im trying to get it but all i get from searching is sdl2.dll

Exported 734 message(s)