DDraceNetwork - off-topic

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DDraceNetwork / off-topic

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Between 2021-06-21 00:00:00Z and 2021-06-22 00:00:00Z

mods are asleep! quickly post trollet

trollet

im watching u

1

Embedded image

fagzuki

eNJi

fagzuki

Is this why you're "resigning"? xD

no

Why

many factors

@deen no good hosters in FL?

I found a few, not sure whether to try. Feels like USA community is small enough as it is

deen

I found a few, not sure whether to try. Feels like USA community is small enough as it is

You should give it a try. I can get some latin players there probably

deen

I found a few, not sure whether to try. Feels like USA community is small enough as it is

Im too far from USA :/ and I cant have a good ping anywhere

^

Lol

rus ural/east when

Image attachment

how

Image attachment

17:17

nvm

Embedded image

ill move this topic here but, i dont understand the argument for not having accounts. there would likely be a setting to not use accounts for non-ddnet servers anyway

18:36

you would just have to have some idea of which servers encompass what accounts, which could be easily figured out with some sort of server metadata

as i know blockmark client has account system

lynn

ill move this topic here but, i dont understand the argument for not having accounts. there would likely be a setting to not use accounts for non-ddnet servers anyway

Most of the people arguing against it are scared that it will actually work to stop their incessant trolling.

xd

18:52

then they can go to fokkonaut's playground

18:52

not ddnet

18:52

problem solved!

18:52

well they have accounts but not in the same way

18:52

well kinda the same way

18:52

nvm im just wrong

18:52

better example would be fng

Image attachment

who this

this image confuses me but i dont know why

Ryozuki

who this

Goblin Puchkov

a goblin?

19:08

Dmitry Yuryevich Puchkov, also known as Goblin, is an English-to-Russian film and video game translator, scriptwriter, author and activist. His alternative voice-over translations of famous Hollywood films are widely known both for their perceived profanity and humour.

yep

his wife is 20 years younger

19:08

BASED

his brain 20 years younger

19:10

but he is total commie

Learath2

Most of the people arguing against it are scared that it will actually work to stop their incessant trolling.

Trolls play ddnet

trolls can create new accounts over and over even with an account system?

19:12

i mean you might have servers where you need at least 1k points to enter to gatekeep trolls

they can force players to register via oauth with 2fa for full access

19:12

or something else

Deleted User

trolls can create new accounts over and over even with an account system?

i don't think accounts are meant to eradicate trolling anyway, nothing does

19:14

it just makes trolling more annoying cus you have to create a new account

19:14

and it could check IP as well

19:14

so you have to do normal evasion on top of creating a new account

19:14

annoying af

There is some guy thats always playing with name rockus

creating new accounts shouldn't take long because otherwise it's annoying to start playing the game

it definitely adds time to each evasion, cant deny that

Rockus isnt turkish right just to make sure

also there could be some annoying captcha bs that you have to do like the forum

Deleted User

creating new accounts shouldn't take long because otherwise it's annoying to start playing the game

oh i didnt even read the second half of this sentence xd, i mean i dont think it's too annoying, and it would be for ddnet servers

19:18

maybe you can even connect to the server but you register in-game instead of a boring ui

19:18

so u can kinda see the game being played in the background instead of the normal background

19:18

i think it's important to show users real gameplay as fast as possible

you can autogenerate accounts

️

lynn

also there could be some annoying captcha bs that you have to do like the forum

xD I dont like those, one of the captchas want ypu to make mistake for you to pass, I was clicking all the boxes that contained even a couple of pixels of the thing that it wants me to check for

19:19

I would fail that captcha 20 times in a row

19:19

Until my friend said ypu need to make mistake

i mean i think the devs are capable of making a more sane captcha

kek

yes every captcha will be botted eventually, but it slows it down

19:20

it pretty much requires that the user is using a bot client to troll, which is a plus and a negative

19:20

because it discourages low-effort trolling but it also converts people to use modified clients

19:21

idk, there's no perfect way

@lynn i was thinking about coding a register for ddnet and i talked to some players about it, i dont remember who it was, but he said sth like "the cool thing about ddnet/teeworlds is that you do not commit to a 40 min game or anything else. you can just go on, play a bit and go off again". tbh, thats a valid point and sth i would really miss if it wasnt there anymore

why would accounts interfere with that quality?

19:21

you wouldn't need to login ever

we could force players to play multeasymap to register an account edit: bad idea it would force trolls on multeasy (edited)

it would use a stored key on your disk

Why wouldnt it be there if accpunts were implemented?

you could specifically logout i guess deleting the key

idk mate, cool thing about teeworlds is that its easy accessable

idk specifics. but there was talk about using a key, it would be no different from how it is now

you can still have such uncontrolled servers and ddnet with account systems

lynn

idk specifics. but there was talk about using a key, it would be no different from how it is now

Yeah Isaw it too I think its like you are assigned a key and that key holds ypur data until you make account

you would register once for ddnet servers and never again. you wouldn't even need to login because it would find your key locally and submit that to the server as auth or something

19:24

again im not looking at the issue in github right now or know the latest on it, but that's my understanding

AKayra

Yeah Isaw it too I think its like you are assigned a key and that key holds ypur data until you make account

key would just be your auth, all data like points is still stored on servers

I mean the data is assigned to key then to be assigned into an account

likely the real private key that's used to verify yourself in some encryption standard

19:25

ehhh not rly, it's just that you're given a key after registration, as long as it matches then you dont need to login

19:27

this is fairly low-level but how it's described on github

Image attachment

19:29

only the first 3 paragraphs really

19:30

also if we have account IDs then it's easier to do away with IP moderation and moderate via those IDs :D

Accounts are bad

19:41

What if I sign using someone elses name?

ok so you don't know how accounts work xd

Image attachment

19:42

@Ryozuki

justatest

justatest

accounts are auth-based not name-based

How do they work then

Pepe

@Ryozuki

justatest

justatest

xd

19:42

tu sabes k significa manga en español

19:42

por eso se traduce

Claro xD

xd

19:43

Embedded image

lynn

accounts are auth-based not name-based

They're still bad.

Pero me dió mucha risa como lo ven los que no saben español

xd

Only newcomers or unknown people want accounts.

incorrect and incorrect, you aren't really arguing anything also

anyone else here is a manga addict and craving mangadex to be fully operational already

19:44

god

19:44

my weebness

19:45

justatest

I think the real reason you don't like accounts is, as Learath said previously, to troll (edited)

people don't like accounts because in general teeworlds and so ddnet have been a really open game, with nothing binding you, its something unique and rare these days

Accounts don't make trolling harder

19:46

You can just create a new account

it makes it no less open imo

it indeed does it less open

Ryozuki

people don't like accounts because in general teeworlds and so ddnet have been a really open game, with nothing binding you, its something unique and rare these days

Exactly

what do you mean by open then?

starting the game, using whathever name and skin u want join and play

19:47

nothing in the middle

yeah but imagine you naming yourself created an account for you, automatically. you're so free that no one can have access to your account except you unless you allow it

19:48

you have MORE rights under an account system lol

19:48

without accounts, that choice is made for you.

thats not as open as just opening the game and playing

there is zero difference in time to play... joining a server without a key could automatically create an account...

19:49

not ideal ofc but I'm saying this as a counterexample

Lol

people complain about teeworlds and how it should be so often it's no wonder we're not very progressive (edited)

people been playing the game for years and they love how it is

Bitching

tbh i dont care much at this point

19:50

since i dont play

19:50

i just join to see old friends somewhen

defending a topic you don't care about but others do

cuz i understand hwo they feel

people don't even realize why accounts are a good thing

19:51

they are just blindly against it

19:51

they think it inhibits them somehow

19:51

it's just a myth, like many things

Maybe you should do a poll about this topic and you will see that no one wants accounts.

accounts will make you lose ur old points tho

19:53

and ur history

Yea

there is no reliable way of assigning points to new accounts

i think if any feature as implicating as this was held to a poll there would be way more not in favor due to misinformation and ignorance

19:53

you should know that

because people simply dont want i

19:53

it

A lot of new players think they have accounts already, they get confused when they change their name and their finishes / points disappear (edited)

1

They're just stupid

1

and if your argument is "i dont care" then clearly you have a double standard

wdym

mate they are just new to the game

Neiral

mate they are just new to the game

and? you expect people to know everything immediately? you expect everyone new to experience oddities like this and continue to play the game?

yes!

insane

finding them is fun

19:55

knowing them is fun

@lynn i was talking to asko

you and i are programmers

making the game a childs play is why all new games are so boring

we find it interesting

19:55

not commonly though

i just dont like other players calling rookies stupid or sth else sry

Neiral

@lynn i was talking to asko

ah, should have replied then. it wasn't obvious

lynn

we find it interesting

99% of top 500 are not programmers

19:56

and they kept playin

....they're top 500

@lynn ye mb sry

im sure top 3k

there will always be a top 500

or 10k too

your point literally doesn't mean anything

Do your points mean anything

as is ur point about us being programmers

19:58

finding things not everyone knows about and having the skill to do x things that not all players can do is what a skill based game is all about

no that had a point, that we find it interesting there are weird quirks to this game, but not everyone does

this is a gamer thing

19:58

not programmer

some people just want to play and they expect things to work a certain way

19:58

a lot of things most games do teeworlds does not

and thats why its so fun

do we just not care about these types?

19:58

seems discriminatory to me

well ur murican so

19:59

sry had to make

great argument

the joke

holy shit

greenthing

Stop crying. Just so a poll and you will see that no one wants accounts. Accounts are so SHIET.

lynn

do we just not care about these types?

teeworlds does not provide certain features and that has to be changed, because other games have them? seems odd to me from the reasoning perspective

a poll on discord is a bad indicator because discord does not represent the playerbase in a good way

"stop crying" is pretty much the worst stance you can have about this, because being against accounts is more negative than being for them

20:01

like you're just talking about yourself when you say that xD

You can do the poll somewhere else than in discord.

Deleted User

a poll on discord is a bad indicator because discord does not represent the playerbase in a good way

there's too much misinformation

Polls mostly just attract the people that are against something

there's no point to having a poll

20:01

also this ^

there will never be a point in time where a poll will solve this issue

you notice that reviews always have a disproportionate amount of bad ones?

20:01

cus why review if it's fine

if u dont agree = ur misinformed

A good account system would fix too many current issues with the game, it's almost required the more popular the game gets.

seems to fit the current world narrative

Lol

it would be a less dumb idea if people were more informed

Ryozuki

seems to fit the current world narrative

you have the most frustrating argument style

lets go on twitter, make a hashtag and inform people of the true side

Skeith

A good account system would fix too many current issues with the game, it's almost required the more popular the game gets.

what are the current issues besides blockers?

you appeal to emotions instead of saying anything of substance

make a poll on twitter

lynn

you appeal to emotions instead of saying anything of substance

no front, but you did the same just before..^^

We can't moderate properly without accounts, people stealing names, people evading bans with ease.

u appealing to something u dont have a base of

It's a shitshow

u automatically think ppl are misinformed

You can still create new accounts and keep blocking

Skeith

We can't moderate properly without accounts, people stealing names, people evading bans with ease.

people will continue to evade bans and spam chat

20:03

i can tell u cuz no captcha ddnet will implement will ever be good enough

20:04

and i doubt we will use google captcha due to privacy reasons, and evcen then u can still beat it

xD

Yes, but some obstacles for them to have to jump over makes that more annoying for them. The more annoying it is, the less likely they'll continue.

they can prepare shitload of accounts in advance

it's crazy to say what i am saying appeals to emotions

Example: Discord trolls are less common

all of my arguments have been based in facts

facts > feelings

ie. people flock to polls when they disagree

lynn

all of my arguments have been based in facts

Accounts are SHIET. Thats a fact

and people are misinformed (edited)

20:05

ALSO a fact

Neiral

teeworlds does not provide certain features and that has to be changed, because other games have them? seems odd to me from the reasoning perspective

@lynn where are the facts here?

FAXXX

as @Deleted User so brilliantly demonstrated

send me ur faxx number

and continues to demonstrate, depending on your interpretation

What are the benefits

Skeith

Example: Discord trolls are less common

yeah in discord u can enable email and phone verification, but at this point ur sacrificing privacy concerns

20:06

u are already giving us an argument for no accounts

20:07

they also use google captcha

20:07

privacy

Both of those verifications are so easily avoidable

thats not the point here

We haven't enabled those things here.

discord registration requires google captcha

Well, true I guess

1. less trolling (have to evade IP, new email address, new captcha, more annoying to evade generally)
2. easier to identify users from a moderation perspective (easier to moderate when we have client IDs)
3. way easier to support richer features
  - multi-server whisper system
  - clan system could have real features then, like chats as one example
  - tournaments would be easier to organize since identifying players is then an automatic process

20:09

@Deleted User

20:09

there are certainly many things we can do with accounts that i didnt even mention

20:09

whisper system is just one of the only ones talked about on github

20:09

there isn't much talked about in terms of features because just the accounts are debated first....

20:10

they can't be very useful if we can't even agree if they should exist

How will you execute this account system?

what do you mean

20:10

extremely open ended question

personal data can leak centralised system can be destroyed (surely, if there will be some backdoors) account-system is long-period addition, you should make it stable as idea in first and stable in realisation another timepassing for playerbase

Sincerely yours, Asko_YT

why dont you write down any negative arguments? @lynn people would get a more objective point of view i believe

Yeah

i was only asked to provide positive ones

btw centralising of one part of teeworlds can just kill other gamemodes if ddnet would start host them or even maintain

but i can

i would appreciate that

centralization is a concern

gerdoe

btw centralising of one part of teeworlds can just kill other gamemodes if ddnet would start host them or even maintain

ddnet already killed other mods as it is

ye...

teeworlds people hate ddnet

monkalaugh

return me my vanilla playerbase troll

troll

i dont care much about that tho

20:13

teesmash best mod tho

20:14

bluekitty

20:14

Image attachment

Maybe if they added those slopes vanilla would still be alive troll

troll

i bet, i bet it would be better to make node-system like tor in teeworlds pov

20:15

with good one protocol

20:15

as game engine

making a decentralized auth system is hard

the negatives are

1. takes more time to get started if we include email + captcha as a part of creating an account (but you would only ever do this once)
2. centralization (but as far as im concerned, that ship has sailed already, as ryo mentioned)
3. security issue (now we are liable for passwords)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle

Zooko%27s_triangle

hm anyway it should have ~central node

you cant get points on other servers

ninslash support when

it wouldn't matter if ddnet rolled its own auth server

20:16

imo

Kog?

kog already does this

not in ddnet way

it's just not forced

with client i mean

having decentralized auth would allow other mods to verify a player is who he says he is

20:17

no matter what sv

20:17

its a thing to consider

hm i heard of facebook analogue with such thing

u always say a strong point is knowing who a player is

20:17

but why u limit it to ddnet

i wasn't implying it was limited to ddnet

20:18

i just don't care much for discussing that

because it needs to rework other mods

20:18

that why

thats not a problem

when i talk about auth im mostly talking about ddnet

20:18

it can be for other servers too though

but u cant rework something if there is no decentralized support for it

Vanilla people hate accounts btw

and ddnet ppl

True

even if that's true, tell me why you value the opinions of people who dont even play ddnet

looks like we are in 2013-2016 with 0.7 ideas

Why do you value heinrichs opinion then?

20:20

He doesn't play ddnet

xd

-_-

he obviously supports ddnet

20:21

he wouldn't need to play to prove that to me

20:22

anyways, yes there are negatives to accounts, but i think people blow it up out of proportion when they talk about it

20:22

since many people (including you as you demonstrated) don't understand how simple it would be / how well it would work

20:22

so it is a fair conclusion to make that the reason people don't support it is that they don't understand it

will anyone research it actually?

haha

i mean asko said "What if I sign using someone elses name?" which is exactly what accounts prevent

20:24

there's work to do (edited)

i thought you talk with us in main

lynn

i mean asko said "What if I sign using someone elses name?" which is exactly what accounts prevent

Register*

How can you do that/ + cant you do that with current system

20:26

Serriously

ok i dont want to debate about what you meant before or if you meant sign in so ill drop it

Stop the troll

Deleted User

Register*

it like, same

i think they mean if someone registers BEFORE you register

20:27

so if you were using a name before and wanted to register an account

Yes

yeah, also not clarified

20:27

you make it hard on yourself lol

20:27

drip

20:28

Stop

ok

idk. i think we will endlessly debate it and it will never get done

if auth system will be implemented ddnet will migrate database to account database

only solution is to just do it and have it as an option

20:28

since no one can agree

20:28

really frustrating it has to be that way

lynn

so if you were using a name before and wanted to register an account

What will you do to prevent this? This is the main reason why I don't want accounts.

apparently there are ways they can do this

20:29

as suggested in the github thread

How

but i cant claim to know how exactly

The transition I am debating as well but I bellieve that they havw methods as they said in that github issue

yeah, you'd have to contact them

20:29

if i were to guess it has to do with an allow list of IPs for existing names

20:30

and very used IPs would be preferred over troll uses

do you think they collect ips

Its so easy to change IP address

but seems weird

what yall guys are talking about

gerdoe

do you think they collect ips

yea as i said i dont think it's 100% the solution

20:30

but it's my random guess xd

20:31

depends on what you mean by collected, for certain things they're kept for a while

Deleted User

Its so easy to change IP address

it would be cool if ddnet would collect ips for time to get real name owners into database

20:31

ip - name

extremely dumb that they didnt have a private key initially to make claiming names later on possible and 100% foolproof

20:32

but we can't blame teeworlds devs for that

20:32

there was no reason for accounts back then

20:33

the problem with using any service without any encryption / authentication initially even if you dont end up enforcing it is that you can't retroactively auth anything

lynn

extremely dumb that they didnt have a private key initially to make claiming names later on possible and 100% foolproof

Its quite the thing to look 10 years to future when all you have is just a game ypu are working on for fun

lol yeah, it was never meant to have this kind of attention

20:33

kind of a beautiful accident

Absolutely

i mean hell, names didn't even mean anything in teeworlds

20:34

no points or stats or anything

ddos attacks killed teeworlds back in time

Just them skills

lynn

no points or stats or anything

oh oh there were so many peojects with collecting players infos through masterservers

yea but never officially

20:35

accounts are already a non-official feature, to some extent

20:35

ddnet could even implement accounts but not as a part of the repo

20:36

but i think that would be not ideal

20:36

it should be as open as possible

20:37

i personally wouldn't care if points were just wiped. i would never wish that we do that but i wouldn't care

20:37

and im extremely biased as well since im a newer player

20:37

points being wiped is a good thing in some way though, if you want to look at it that way

20:37

imagine ddnet seasons

I wouldnt be too but thats kinda selfish for new players to say like that

right xd

Starkiller wouldnt enjoy if his points would get whiled

xD

Whiped

i want to make it very clear that i wouldn't support points being wiped lol

I think its clear xD

you'd be surprised

lynn

yea but never officially

but ddnet is also unofficial

ddnet as a repo is official in that sense

ha

there is very little that's hidden

who is the creator of ddnet

20:40

phoneW

i think deen primarily developed it

Bean

at least at the start

Deen*

redfox

hm

but understand that much of ddnet is just teeworlds code

20:40

which is a lot of other people before that

ahah

20:40

now its half ddnet

20:40

and half teeworlds

not really they're still very similar

no

only top-level mechanics are changed

even protocol is extended

keyword extended lol

20:41

but there is a lot of ddnet code yes

ey skeith what app you use for your gameskin/edit

you cant clear ddnet code and make clean teeworlds server without all ddnet features (edited)

lol troll, asking a question when they're typing a large message

20:43

or re-typing a few sentences over and over justatest

justatest

@amo suco de morango krita

Skeith

@amo suco de morango krita

same

ah

copy and paste spotted

I rqed what I was typing greenthing

greenthing

I ctrl c, answer,ctrl v ,continue when similar happens

LMAO

Skeith

@amo suco de morango krita

how d you delete the background so quickly

Skeith

I rqed what I was typing greenthing

greenthing

XD

eraser

gerdoe

eraser

ik but always you delete the image

20:44

with that

@Skeith what's your opinion of seeing points as a periodic measurement instead of like all-time

20:44

or supplementary to all-time

background eraser

gerdoe

background eraser

dont have in krita if iknow

it's already a thing with per month points but not remembered / very significant to people

lynn

@Skeith what's your opinion of seeing points as a periodic measurement instead of like all-time

kog have it as i know

it would have a lot of problems

20:45

number 1 would be, people with new names have a huuuuge benefit

i almost won nitro today

they can just play a ton of ez maps

phoneW

maybe it could consider repeat finishes

20:46

then it would be more fair

But it get harder to get more points in kess time,ypu wpuld need like a wipeout points xD

20:46

Every months or so if ypu gonna grind for poimt/time

but i think it benefits solo / dummy players a lot

20:46

cus you can just grind all hours of the day without anyone around to get points in a sprint of time

lynn

maybe it could consider repeat finishes

That would be cool, might actually work

at the very least it would be interesting

20:48

lol i tried to give skeith something easier to respond with and it just created the problem again

20:48

im troll

10 years later

20:49

I can feel it its coming

TL:DR, the current points are meaningless, it's a mess of people swapping to someone elses name and finishing for them, and cheated ranks. They mean almost nothing. I've picked through a fair amount of finishes to clean up /top5-10 and it makes me lose hope in the current system... It's only really good for keeping track of all the time you've wasted. IMO

race servers > ddrace servers then

so just an overhaul is something you're more supportive of?

I think it'd be ideal to start fresh with accounts, keeping the old list of points somewhere where people can look back at it

im surprised then if that's the case cus ive talked about alternative points systems before

20:51

maybe you can have two views?

20:51

one is like account points

20:51

other is name points

Someone forced me to change dummy name to his friends name once

xD

then we devolve into a society of "accountists" and "nameists"

20:51

sounds pleasant

xD

marxxx

Points reset will be waay more hated than accounts btw

idk. i REALLY doubt getting points into accounts will be an issue for people where it matters

20:52

like i know who's aoe on discord, starkiller, etc

Also you can just share an account xd

as long as they keep those it's ez to verify

20:53

this is in the complete absence of a programmatic way to verify users btw

20:53

it doesn't seem like an issue to me. cases could be handled where someone objects to the name claim and there can be discussions about it. we don't have THAT many active players

20:54

compared to other games it would be a disaster to be realistic about it, but it's just not the case

20:54

but there would be a problem with people massively hoarding accounts and they would need to be filtered through

the year is 2030. ddnet as a community has split into two groups: the originals and the new generation. the admins of the original version stopped maintaining it and started work on a new version, which extends ddnet to have more features than before, including features that original players do not like. new maintainers take over the original client, probably some prolific devs in the community. for years, they try to entice new players to join their side, the originals saying "look, we represent ddnet as it should be, we respect the game" and the new generation says "don't listen to the originals, we have better features and value your opinions as players". this quickly escalates to network attacks against each other and originals joining new generation servers to troll and vice versa. the simple act of deciding to play the game for the first time represents your allegiance, and your involvement in the war is never optional (edited)

21:05

the irony of this story? this is already how it is with 0.7 vs ddnet xd

21:05

(may or may not be extremely exaggerated)

21:08

typos

There was like left/right groups fpr different opinions in my country at 80s and this is exactly defines that but just related to a game and not opinions-politics

21:10

But this isnt exaggreted at all is the difference

we can make 2 types of servers, account servers and non account servers

they should be able to play together

21:26

it would harm the community so much to split them

21:26

kog has optional auth

if its optional there wont be a way to punish trolls, it might only help to protect from fakers

right yeah

make servers not accept trolls like sp someone

actroll

4

sp someone would probably still be there

22:14

but yeah, could also use steam auth but then it's not as libre

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