"but at least it conveys an idea everyone understands" so far in each "map testing topic" when name ddmax was used. Non of mappers understood what staff or community tester had in mind. So writing this kind of things makes stuff even worse.
@Pulsar not this time sorry mate
First pick of ddnet "brutal" map it's even under "selected maps"
so If this is ddmax then whats the point of using "ddnet' in name.
Maybe just rename DDraceNetwork to DDracemaX because many maps will have this "ddmax parts".....
the most crucial difference imo is that in the first style, most corners are not necessary, the player is free to choose which corners to use to drag the tee through
00:30
in the second style, all the parts are very well defined and require the player to do something specific. i don't see the similarity here
00:30
ah yea louis said what i said
louis
the 1st one is just a bunch of corners in a row, its like you just dragged your cursor across the editor
i like this comment a lot, i think it is characteristic of simple drags to be low effort
00:32
i think i can name 1-2 ddmax maps i have played without this kind of mapping (not saying i have played all the best ddmax maps btw, just my experience)
Tsin
they are using it because ddnet staff started using it in wrong term. Thats why I try to change it.
judging whole server by a first part from one map......
that first part was made to show to player "hey look at me im friendly, play me".
Many mappers make that stupid mistake by making "noobfilter" or the first part the hardest of the map. Then they are shocked why players are leaving the server.
I often told mappers to make first parts as easy as possible (but still so that they fit the whole map). This was the best trick to make players stay on the map and try other harder parts.
Tsin
judging whole server by a first part from one map......
that first part was made to show to player "hey look at me im friendly, play me".
Many mappers make that stupid mistake by making "noobfilter" or the first part the hardest of the map. Then they are shocked why players are leaving the server.
I often told mappers to make first parts as easy as possible (but still so that they fit the whole map). This was the best trick to make players stay on the map and try other harder parts.
i think you can do simple drags in a map, it just shouldn't be more than a tiny part of it, or there is a lead-up to another part that makes the simple drag notable in some way
i mean to say, i dont agree with release like that, not disagreeing with you
01:11
the point of purple panic was that style. i think if we are going to judge all maps by the same criteria, then it shouldn't matter that simple drags was the theme of purple panic before ddnet, it should not receive special treatment
01:12
should have been rejected or placed in ddmax category
01:13
if purple panic 4 was released in this year it would no doubt be rejected, we're just changing our standards over time
01:13
this of course means that previously accepted mapping styles become dated, and those associated with those styles or those that continue to map in those styles will be pointed out(edited)
01:14
im sure at the time, people thought kobra was an acceptable novice map, but now a lot of people think it's mod 1, and imo killed a lot of the new playerbase we gained from releasing on steam
01:15
my point is that our standards change and we should continue to reject maps that have styles that are no longer accepted, but we could be more specific instead of just saying "ddmax" yes
01:16
but i think you can remove incentives for mapping in old styles in other ways than just rejecting them
but im not an admin
"or placed in ddmax category" thats not a ddmax map.....
also ddmax is not a category it was a server like ddnet also its a name which ddnet shouldn't use in the first place.
i think people still enjoy playing maps with simple drags, in fact a friend of mine likes it because they can still play but listen to music or just chill out. so we could still accept maps of this style but put them in a low-reward category
Tsin
"or placed in ddmax category" thats not a ddmax map.....
also ddmax is not a category it was a server like ddnet also its a name which ddnet shouldn't use in the first place.
idk splitting stuff up into ages is weird. there's a conflict of interest eg. when there's a novice map in old style, where does it go
01:24
just rejected? okay so that means oldschool is frozen as a category. why do we have it then? historical reasons? who is really attached to this idea? who does it help?
i think it comes down to whether or not admins/testers think there should be incentives at all for mapping in old styles
01:26
i personally dont care
01:27
i wouldn't play simple drag part maps very often or at all (and as it is, i dont)
01:27
but if there is an audience for it, it's worth talking about
01:28
what im worried about though is, let's say oldschool is expanded to include simple maps. now all new mappers see this and think "wait, this is my shot to make a simple map and get it ranked" and then we have a huge influx of map submissions drowning out the new style maps
01:29
maybe not an issue? you don't have to test maps much if it's just simple drag parts
01:29
it more or less can be approved/rejected very quickly
ok first things first
ddnet have no rights to use ddmax name.
but as it is already used then ddnet staff should always check and inform the staff tester or community testers/member that using ddmax as name of describing parts is wrong.
also ddmax "category" maps are closed no new maps(i dont care what would happen to PP4, it was not a ddmax map). If ddnet would love to add there more new maps which would fit in style of ddmax.next or ddmax.classic then stop using name "ddmax" and rename that "category".
Oldschool should be renamed to "Old maps" or "Oldies" or "Historitee maps" and there should be a rule(if it dont exist yet) that this category of maps are only for maps which were released long time ago.
About rejected maps there are 2 ways:
1. dont use them and dont give a fuck about them
OR
2. make a category "2nd chance" and check the statistics if players will care about those maps.
Points for maps in this category would be frozen untill this map wouldnt be pushed to "normal" ddnet category.
So you play the map you finish it and when and IF the map will be pushed to "normal" category then assign the points.
If you would make a category of maps and people would know they wouldn't gain points from them, then they wouldn't care to check that category of maps in the first place.
OR maybe its the time to drop the ddmax way of static categories of servers and make a more dynamic server with polls in which players will decide if the map should stay or not. (BTW I planned to make this for DDracemaX 3.0)
i think i can name 1-2 ddmax maps i have played without this kind of mapping (not saying i have played all the best ddmax maps btw, just my experience)
This is because u probably played mainly ez ddmax maps, ddmax have maps of 4 to 20 pts, u cant include all maps in same skill technique level, if u play novices or moderates under 3 stars a lot of them will have the ez drags u mentioned too
how u can be so mad when ppl saying ddmax is trash maps
05:49
its pretty normal that 8 years old maps are trash lol
05:50
not all but most of them
05:51
most of 5+ years old brutal/moderate/novice also very bad
Tsin
First pick of ddnet "brutal" map it's even under "selected maps"
so If this is ddmax then whats the point of using "ddnet' in name.
Maybe just rename DDraceNetwork to DDracemaX because many maps will have this "ddmax parts".....
"Yes, I made some bad joke about DDmaX admin and was banned for life." hmmm so thats what you call it this days......
I though that insulting a player (a girl in ddmax), funvoting other players and blocking players is just being toxic player..... oh silly me, If only back then I knew it was just making a joke of admin.
@Tsin I think you take it all a bit too personally, it should be clear that no one wants to attack you by saying ddmax. Likewise, it is a bit far-fetched after 8 years ddnet teeworlds to re-enter and demand to delete ddmax maps. Also I think you don't have the right to decide about all maps, I'm sure most mappers want their maps to stay online.
@Cøke I agree on that BUT with big change to what you wrote.
If there would be any deletion of maps on ddnet then not because I would have the right to decide about all of them but the right if mapper agree for his map to be on ddnet in the first place.
Did ddnet ask any of ddmax mappers if their maps can be added to ddnet ? I doubt that happend (atleast from what I read from ddnets logs of IRC conversations).
Clan servers exist a few years, idk how long exactly
Tsin
@Cøke I agree on that BUT with big change to what you wrote.
If there would be any deletion of maps on ddnet then not because I would have the right to decide about all of them but the right if mapper agree for his map to be on ddnet in the first place.
Did ddnet ask any of ddmax mappers if their maps can be added to ddnet ? I doubt that happend (atleast from what I read from ddnets logs of IRC conversations).
I dont know anything about the love to anything in this game (besides Deen loving ddmax maps before he was banned ^^).
Still If mapper wouldn't like ddmax then they wouldn't put "for ddracemax" sign in the map. I never ever asked anyone to do so.
If ddnet died I would want all my maps to be on the new server structure
Tsin
I dont know anything about the love to anything in this game (besides Deen loving ddmax maps before he was banned ^^).
Still If mapper wouldn't like ddmax then they wouldn't put "for ddracemax" sign in the map. I never ever asked anyone to do so.
There are still people who think purple panic 5 is releasable... But I have explained the problem before, if you release something like this you have to release all simple drag maps. This in turn drives the standard down enormously
If you don't want toooo many of maps of one kind then you make a decission. Reject the map if its not good OR if it is good then remove the old ones and keep that better one.
09:40
But in the end it still should be community choice. Players if they like the map (the idea of rejected maps and polls).
about 50% of purple panic are "simple drag parts", but they looked balanced and they weren't just created randomly. i wouldn't blame those parts for everything.
Never had time to make as many of my maps as I would want. I had to help mappers getting their maps better. Helping in testing, fixing and sometimes because of language barrier changing the parts and asking the mapper if he likes the change.
It's the same with oldschool maps, newer players who have been playing for 5 years if at all don't like these maps because they are supposedly 'poorly mapped'. However, they are a part of teeworlds history and have their place. Just because some players who are new say you should delete them doesn't mean anything.
09:48
As I said, I also think that ddmax maps have earned their place. Don't take everything personally when someone says ddmax parts. Some of my maps are also on ddmax and I don't even have that kind of parts. I don't feel attacked just because I have some maps on ddmax.
On ddnet there are now 370 maps (not all of ddmax maps). 70% of those maps went through my testing (long hours of map testing, fixing, checking if mapper only changed the thing he was suppose to change and not adding an extra cheat in other part). That was like a second job, many hours and almost every day.
Later when I finally managed to find people to help me I was able to leave ddmax to them and focus on blocker servers (which were a HIT =]).
I know what work it is, look in evaluated maps, there are almost no more maps that can be released. Since knuski and I currently have less time for testing
I have tried before to bring the others more involved, but since it is all voluntary you can not force anyone
Tsin
On ddnet there are now 370 maps (not all of ddmax maps). 70% of those maps went through my testing (long hours of map testing, fixing, checking if mapper only changed the thing he was suppose to change and not adding an extra cheat in other part). That was like a second job, many hours and almost every day.
Later when I finally managed to find people to help me I was able to leave ddmax to them and focus on blocker servers (which were a HIT =]).
Maybe you don't remember or maybe you tested the map with some other player and I was on spec watching if the parts are possible and then after everything I just pointed the things which could be changed (depend on mapper) and cheats that must be fixed(if ofcourse any cheats were find in your maps).
all ddmax maps were always checked by me or by ddmax tester. If map was checked by me or with me on server then yeah sometimes i just pointed out things on skypet (tsin666 account - if anyone ? =]) and later by ddmax testers and things were pointed out on ddmax forum.
10:00
Players like knight maps they were played and speedrunned all the time. So it was normal thing for him to make more so players would play more. Self making mechanism =]
also about that I never rly had as much time as I would want to. Sometimes maps were in almost "release state" maps were showed to players and then thrown into "projects for future" folder.
This map was made in 2011 or 2012 and leaked in 2014
https://eastbit.net/public/tw-webgl/?map=https://heinrich5991.de/teeworlds/maps/maps/KP_f4540f1b.map
(background is fucked in this web view, in game it looks good)
I've never been happy about design and gameplay of few parts of this map. Map for speedrunnig but few parts brake the flow. I changed this map in november 2020. Tweaked the design, changed those parts which broke the flow and added much more parts =]
Tsin
"Yes, I made some bad joke about DDmaX admin and was banned for life." hmmm so thats what you call it this days......
I though that insulting a player (a girl in ddmax), funvoting other players and blocking players is just being toxic player..... oh silly me, If only back then I knew it was just making a joke of admin.
"There was no empty DDmaX server and I wanted to play a map with BooNie. So I wondered how we could get an empty server where our map vote would pass. I jokingly suggested to BooNie that maybe we should get people to insult Tsin, then he would come and ban them for life and we have more space. I did that because I heard that he bans people for life if they insult him, but of course would never actually make people insult someone. Half an hour later I had a ban for life."
So who is lieing here?
Don't know anything about this bullshit. One of ddmax admins showed me screenshots and demo of deen and onionly me acting toxic to one girl and to other players. I joined in to server and seen it on my own eyes so I started treating them exacly how we treated this kind of players. BTW they treat this kind of players the same now on ddnet. Normal way of being.
If thats true (im not saying its not, never seen) then someone from staff members should do something about it. The thing that should be done to him should be deremined from the rules of the server.
For breaking each rule you have uniqe punishment. Its obvious not everything counts for ban and specialy for a life ban.
Blocking players, fun voting players to get them kicked from server (many sadly were kicked - they even floaded server with multiple clients to make vote pass) and jumping on girl(insults, blocking and making laugh) without a reason (only because they were bored - ive seen the demo so before i reacted i had to watch the demo to know the whole situation and how it started).
This wasn't just one thing, it was multiple actions for longer time and happend to to many players that just joined the server and just wanted to have fun and play with friends.
In that time being(the tools we had and how servers worked), getting them out of servers was the only good option and a good punishment(life ban).
There will always be black sheeps, but you shouldn't ban all of them immediately forever. Maybe they learn quickly from it, if not I have nothing against a perma ban
Dear @heinrich5991 then maybe you have a false image of ddnet ? I've seen on my own eyes admin/mod making a life ban (maybe it was to scare that player and he was later unbanned -maybe or maybe not). Also I was a witness of admins/mods abusing their powers only because a player wanted to do the part and admin/mod wanted to do it (ban was given without a reason). This happend in first week when I showed up to ddnet in 2020.
I've even seen that admin/mod blocked a player then that admin/mod wrote to that player "blocker" and when other player wrote to that admin/mod that he actualy blocked the player then this player was banned(only for saying truth).
I mentioned this on discord and nobody gave a fuck. I think I even mentions that this admin/mod was probably a russian and that hes name in that time was s... maybe sk... something(don't remember).
To make it clear it wasn't @Skeith =]
@Tsin bans on the game server can be made with arbitrary duration, but they are reset every day
13:39
the only persistent bans are managed via a different interface and I can tell you that there are no permanent, unappealable bans that I'm aware of @Tsin
Then its almost the same like on ddmax. We only been able to keep bans via IP and each day I also removed the bans manualy by hand. Was to scared to keep a ban because of changing ip.
Today I would ban "you" and next day some other german player using the same net provider would be banned because he would get your ip..... so i had to remove the ban each day.
13:42
This was a cat and mise chase
Tsin
Don't know anything about this bullshit. One of ddmax admins showed me screenshots and demo of deen and onionly me acting toxic to one girl and to other players. I joined in to server and seen it on my own eyes so I started treating them exacly how we treated this kind of players. BTW they treat this kind of players the same now on ddnet. Normal way of being.
the same as ddnet if any of admin/mod would chase a person
but here you have even longer bans, because they are to the end of the day.....
bans on ddmax were more to scare a person rather than making a real ban
"some people were fed up enough with that policy" talking about the actual good players or all the scum that acted toxic on ddmax and received a scare ban in the past (they always were buthurt about this). No wonder that scum moved to ddnet and started acting nice like never happend and ddmax (Tsin) was that bad one.
I truly have no idea how hard it is to understood that all I ever did was to take care of those players who never done anything wrong. Why people always try to defend those toxic ones and blame that admin is bad one.
2012-2014 there were more admin and i even wanted to give ddmax to them
13:56
I always had that idea of hosting ddmax, improve it (code/features) etc and from time to time help with events and give the rest to the community so they would decide which way ddmax would go.
At ddrock, on the other hand, we said something bad about the maps and were directly banned for months, I don't know exactly how... But I think he renewed it every day(edited)
What is more when i heard that ddnet was about to become something new(it didnt exist yet). I had a talk with deen and onionly.me. Both were sorry for what happend and that they wanted to have fun that day. I wanted then to give ddmax to them. So they could do with it what ever they want but keep the main rules of ddmax(which in the end they mostly copied). Thats why ddnet and ddmax are so similar.
I told them that I was seeking for longer time someone who could take and change ddmax and make it alive and that I would leave. I believed them in their words(that they were rlt sorry) and wanted to give them a second chance. I only had one condition to keep megaman(that scum) out of ddmax for good.
We couldn't get into agreement maybe they didn't believe me that I will truly leave.
In that time, ddmax was like dead (just mostly releasing maps, ddrace mod was dead - nothing was rly happning not even bug fixes of major things).
I searched for someone who had an idea and who had skills to code (without that nothing would work).
@heinrich5991 but when people act like that then what should I call them ???
Hey could you please not keep on ddmax that fine gentelmen who for past months was insulting players who were my friends and who fun voted and blocked everyone whenever he had pleasure to do so.
Thats better ? =]
I will tell you this never ever someone was banned on ddmax only because I had a bad day(or whatever shity reason).
Muted when spamming, sure. But ban wasnt something I wanted to do. Specialy because of stupid bug with ID's.
In the past I was able only to ban by number of ID but when a player quited and then new joined in then all ID's were changing.
I sadly did ban 2-3 times players who didnt deserved that and I was "scared" of banning.
Ofcourse after i made that stupid mistake (not rly my fault but a bug with rapid changing ids). I always searched for that player even stalked him, explaining writing milions of "sorry" and even beg them to comeback (i fucked up their trust and that was wrong not intensionaly but still). Show me any admin that would do that.
14:21
megaman was admin of ddmax and he gave admin password to various trolls and not so nice people (many of them changed over the years but others didnt).
Those trolls were banning/muting players and used super (luckly no records were then harmed).
This was like betray so I helped him leave ddmax. So later he started being even more toxic (mostly to players he didnt know and to the ones who he knew were my friends).
its a normal thing when you add as tileset then its in it original size
if you would make it as quad then you will be able to resize it how ever you want =]
14:58
he acted like he acted he was banned few times and left. after some time he came back and i gave him a second chance he acted nice for some time and again started behaving like trash so again i tried to help him leave ddmax =]
and not long later ddnet was born.
