DDraceNetwork - mapping

what do you think ?

08:22

looks boring

08:37

it's only 2nd part , i made it for noobs like you to understand how it's works justatest

idc if it's for noobs (edited)

09:04

this part just looking boring and repetitive (edited)

please no

️ ores be like

Deleted User

Click to see attachment 🖼️

What is this part supposed to be? Gores, Jetpack fly, Hammerfly?

Stepfunn

What is this part supposed to be? Gores, Jetpack fly, Hammerfly?

just hold hook

Stepfunn

What is this part supposed to be? Gores, Jetpack fly, Hammerfly?

map essential 2 right now on testing

@Tester any 2 points map incoming ? 0-0

no

15:13

3 points

15:13

#deleted-channel

sad

Does someone know if u can effect the hook duration with tune zones?

yes

16:30

hook_duration

16:30

default is 1.25

Cøke

no

Maybe i should do one :)

@Ravie so what is an actual post-steam-rls Novice 1* (edited)

sunny side up, I think

19:22

but it also requires hammerfly somewhere in the map

l o l

19:23

for some reason SSU is 3*

19:24

dunno why

sunny is 3* and rightfully so

19:24

there's no new 1* and it's nearly impossible to make one and keep it interesting imo

well, 3* makes sense in current standards but when you have shit like kobra 4* you have issues deciding on what's really correct anymore

19:24

yadda yadda novice rating bad

it's what I think a 3* should be

19:26

but sadly it might be one of the easiest maps atm

also, chicken pie and magik

19:26

why

19:26

jjust why

19:26

isnt killa 3 also faily as hell

19:27

if you have a map that has novice parts but it's faily as fuck you have a fundamental mapping problem, not even a difficulty problem

stuff like learntoplay being 2* is just a joke to me

it doesn't really belong in moderate either

19:27

its just faily

tangerine

19:27

linear

try introduction 1* novice

half the novice maps should straight up just be nuked or revised

2

the parts are so hard, I didn't get them first try

revised to have more TP or just adjusted difficulty for less extreme cases

newbies I played with just didn't manage t do the part at all

introduction is legit hard i cant believe kobra got 4 in roughly the same time as intro got 1, right?

19:29

well, maybe kobra is even older

19:29

i cant check rn

19:32

actually intro is 2*

19:33

feb 2015 and kobra released jan 2014

19:33

actually 2* makes sense in that time period for how hard kobra is i guess lol

19:33

but should be more like 3* relative to kobra

19:34

intro should be 4/5 now and kobra should be 1 mod

Ravie

there's no new 1* and it's nearly impossible to make one and keep it interesting imo

if u want to have a rating system u must have a unit

19:59

it means that you(we?) need to defind a 1* map

20:00

this must be the easiest map of the game

yeah but I don't think there is any true 1* atm

20:01

and defining a harder map as 1* because there's no true 1* would also be bad

Koule 5 one star xD

20:03

no joke @Ravie i think that StepbyStep by [A] Awesome is the easiest map of the game

20:03

but bcs its old u can die in it

20:03

if u run in the freeze

20:03

not linear?

lynn

not linear?

wdym

linear and tangerine are both easier

20:04

and shorter

the good think is that if u fail a hook u cant die of it

lynn

linear and tangerine are both easier

linear is harder

20:05

if u fall u die instantly

where can you fall

also its a bit special cuz its a solo map

there's like one spot i can think of

lynn

where can you fall

literally everywhere

20:05

look

20:06

u can die everywhere

maybe some of these are easy to fail

also its already a 2* map

yea nvm also the bottom right

and i think its a new map so its well rated

i forgot about that part

20:06

what about tangerine

yeah tangerine super easy if u know the way

20:08

yeah really good choice

20:08

you just have to watch your step

20:08

yeah its a 2020 map so it have the new rating vibe (edited)

20:09

@Ravie can we consider Tangerine by Oblique and Stepbystep by [A] Awesome as 1* Novice maps actually with the new system

there is a couple parts where it's tricky to progress, if you dont see the ceiling after the drop

20:09

i remember that as a noob

stepbystep is pretty good but I think it could be 2* because you can fail and people often don't get corner hooks at first

20:10

tangerine is pretty much a solo map

20:11

and that one move it has is not THAT easy

yes but it only have ONE move

that doesn't make it an easier move

i mean in 15~20 mins of trying u pass the map

but tangerine is too odd for me to consider a good base for other maps

ultimately i think there is no good 1* novice map

20:12

still hasn't been made

@Ravie i think i maybe understand it : New Novice maps 1* sould be maps that introduce Teeworlds not only DDrace

I've wanted to make one for a while but it's really tricky, I'd need a lot of thought and maybe even study level design some more

@Ravie i have a map im working on, i can share it but its not super interesting design or anything yet

20:13

teaches stuff like holding away from walls when climbing

20:14

there's text all over the place that actually explains

I think such 1* map wouldn't have any interesting gameplay, it would need to make up for it in other ways and people should be able to make connections to games they already know

good thinking

text is usually not good

20:15

especially if you bombard people with features and signs like certain maps

well it's hard to convey meaning to someone who doesnt even know the controls

20:15

it's normally just like [ A ] -->

20:15

indicating hook locations

not if u start from another platform game to explain this one (edited)

20:16

like i would look the level 1 of mario to see how its made

20:16

things like this

I don't think [A] [D] [SPACE] needs any explaining

20:16

only hook perhaps

in mario the only signs are arrows

20:16

i will work on this

you don't need arrows if your map is going straight in a direction

20:17

as long as you're moving right, you're making progress

no noobs dont know to move away from walls

20:17

they just try to aim as high as possible over and over

Ravie

as long as you're moving right, you're making progress

then why in mario they put that ?

i mean, in the 3d games they do

I think newer mario games aren't quite as linear

20:18

but connections to classic mario are always a good thing

20:18

something everyone can pick up on

i think if the map is not tall, it is obvious to follow it visually to the right

yeah but it might be winding around or something

doesnt need arrows like you said

20:19

it could but it should be kept to a minimum / be generally right-moving

im watching level 1 of new super mario bros 2 to see what level designers did

20:20

its like

20:20

so basic

as a first level should be

20:20

same for first map :D

look that

20:21

this is the first hole u can fall in

20:21

u could easily jump above it

20:21

but they put big platforms so u can avoid it

20:22

its like abusive

20:23

but if u never played mario u cant die in it

it's so that you don't even need to jump over it with speed

20:23

just notice it and go above

What is the best/easiest way to create your own mapres?

20:43

or what programs should i be using

Bloodbath

What is the best/easiest way to create your own mapres?

Just get good probably justatest

Bloodbath

What is the best/easiest way to create your own mapres?

ask to the mapres server maybe someone can do a mapres there

Astramast

this is the first hole u can fall in

By looking people fail in my map , i understand that people can fail everyway possible justatest

Deleted User

By looking people fail in my map , i understand that people can fail everyway possible justatest

yeah i suppose that mario newcomers could totally think that this hole is a secret passage

Astramast

ask to the mapres server maybe someone can do a mapres there

The mapres of ring_of_gores_3 is so good, its by themix but i guess its not usable for everyone?

dunno, ask @Themix

@Themix please gimme ring_of_gores_3 mapres

Astramast

yeah i suppose that mario newcomers could totally think that this hole is a secret passage

There is game celeste , i have failing in 1st level over and over . Even now if i don't remember i keep failing justatest

. If you don't see this spring you bounce in to spikes ... So 1st time when i was playing i died there over 10 times ...

Deleted User

Just get good probably justatest

well, with what programm and what formats etc xd

20:50

started this

imma ask on mapres server thing

Deleted User

There is game celeste , i have failing in 1st level over and over . Even now if i don't remember i keep failing justatest

. If you don't see this spring you bounce in to spikes ... So 1st time when i was playing i died there over 10 times ...

celeste is hard

20:50

meant to be hard

Welcome_to_teeworlds.map

133.97 KB

21:00

did this start in 15 mins

21:00

@Ravie should be smthing in this style ?

no

Ravie

no

i mean gameplay not design

21:20

i know its ugly

map kinda bad but i have ideas to improve it

test.map

285.95 KB

21:20

also unfinished

21:20

i plan to add one-way tiles for the first climb section (edited)

21:23

idk it doesnt really have parts it just explains things mostly

21:23

which is what i think ddnet needs

21:23

there will be a hammerfly section but it will be optional. you can just walk past it

21:23

it will also show that you can toggle dummy hammerfly (edited)

@Ravie lmao he better mapper than me

well i didnt just start on this

21:24

this has been done like this for about a month

21:24

also no he B(

nono i mean

who??

i talk about the structure of the map

ohh

not the skin of the map (edited)

towards the end of the map

21:25

i want to combine some concepts

21:25

so people can see what some maps might do

lynn

so people can see what some maps might do

dont forget must still 1*

i think rocket jump will also be an optional part. you can skip through a slower passage

21:26

yes

all of the non-1* stuff will be optional

21:26

for speedrun i guess

lynn

i think rocket jump will also be an optional part. you can skip through a slower passage

proposition : u can pass by speedup with rocket or by using rocket on ur mate

well it would be simpler than that

21:27

just a snaking corridor of hookable tiles

but they dont use the rocket :/

.......
.     .
.  .  .
.  .  .
   .      etc
.......

(edited)

?

21:28

aah

21:28

ok

21:28

xD

sorry dots were not a good choice

21:28

its fine if they dont want to use rocket

21:28

i dont want to force any tech

21:28

but newer players will be naturally curious, give it a try, if it's too hard, they try it some other time

Astramast

celeste is hard

Nah it's easy

i can also do a drag with one-way. pretty easy (edited)

21:31

and they can be holding D or not, it wouldnt matter

21:31

every part would be very hand-holdy

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/831216613063655474/841429404601417728/testlynn_2021-05-10_23-31-22.mp4

21:40

@lynn

21:40

21:41

i tried to act like a newbie

i did EXACTLY this when i was testing it

21:45

its a fun exercise :D

why newbies do that

21:45

just fullhooking

21:46

then they dont move

i made the map as ergonomic as possible to make sure that if you follow the instructions exactly, then it wont be likely that you miss a hook or fall or whatever

21:46

with the climb section i mean

21:47

which is why at 0:27 the left wall gets more narrow, moving you right

what would be nice is to set Animation of a tee doing it

and on the right wall there's a lip so you could hook that before the unhook does

like in bullets i think

and if you're holding A or D after a hook, you always land on a platform

i dont remember in wich map theres an animation of 2 tees hammerflying slow so u can see the process

hmm it might have been introduction

21:51

it's the one with places you can fall back down a column right?

21:51

like repeated columns

right

i know what you're talking about im just not sure of the map

but u can just jump above so the others columns are useles

yup

well so smthing like this for this type of part

21:56

but i think a bit expensive in energy and time

all "tutorial" maps I've seen so far have the same problem

21:57

1. press SPACE to jump 2. now do something hard

do you think anything in my map so far is hard?

21:58

or has unnatural progression

yeah the wall hooking with D

21:58

also way too much text and unclear infos

hmm okay

21:58

I will revisit it

21:58

maybe I won't make it a vertical climb but more like hills

I was thinking about a whole tutorial map divided into chapters with tele, and each chapter is like a level with a little progression

21:59

and you can choose if you wanna for example retry tele chapter

and you can skip?

21:59

like if something is too hard

just have a hub world with teles

21:59

and maybe if you finish all the levels you get to open a door and get some bonus

yeah, ceraa had a map like that but it was for normal parts

but any meaningful tutorial I could come up with would need some work from the devs as well, stuff like npc dummies and map text that can be translated

subpar tutorial is better than no tutorial

there's plenty of bad maps trying to act like tutorials already

22:06

but so far the best tutorial is to just join a server with a decent novice map and get someone to teach you

yea it comes down to how interactive a map can be

22:07

which as you said, dev work would need to be done to make it perfect

22:08

i just figure there's not a focus on it

one hard thing is that maps don't seem to have any standard that one can fall back on

22:11

graphics and colors are used interchangably so you can't just say 'metal tiles are unhookable'

yea i generally think of it as less like material colors and more like "warm / cold"

u dont autojoin "tutorial" maps once u launch the game tho

22:12

and tbf those maps are pretty good tutorials if u have some nobo to carry u like u said

to me, blue/grey are cold and orange/brown/red/yellow is warmer

22:13

i mean there is color theory but i know nothing

there are maps using all sorts of tilesets, colors, markings

i dont like maps that deviate from this warm / cold association

some people use white markings as ON and black as OFF, and some people are crazy

f3 as fuck

22:13

white makes SENSE as on

22:13

black does NOT

22:14

when u turn on a light switch it gets brighter (edited)

22:14

when u turn it off it gets darker

you mean you don't have a switch to turn on darkness in your room?

wait what? sorry i live in a normal house

22:16

in australia you turn the darkness on

racist

i knew someone would eventually say racist

22:18

leave it to the minor to make a race joke :DDDD