DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2021-04-19 00:00:00Z and 2021-04-20 00:00:00Z

We were doing a timeline of things that happened in ddnet

re: Haiku, the reason why the game won't run as-is right now is because of an oudated mesa implementation that should get up-to-date soon (haiku support was upstreamed to mesa)

02:28

just making sure to leave this here as a matter of public record

Deleted User

was kinda shocked to see my name in 2021, hope you can still move forward lol

we were doing a ddnet timeline and discussed old drama. you can put it here if you remember:https://wiki.ddnet.tw/wiki/Timeline

This is a list of remarkable events that happened during DDraceNetwork lifetime.

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

6526cdf A Moonlight - ddnet-maps

Image attachment

07:16

wasnt the name not fitting into scoreboard thing fixed?

07:16

check that 99999 guy

how does he not fit?

07:19

aaaaah missing n

07:20

I assume cuz ids are activated

maybe the name is only that

no see left side

ah

ye the bug report is a riddle :D

i always forget to use the best macro in rust for debugging: https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/macro.dbg.html you can put it anywhere PepeA

PepeA

Image attachment

what is that

its a macro you can put around any expression

08:17

and it prints to stderr debug info

08:17

since in rust everything is an expression you can put it anywhere

wow

wow

thats cool actually

fokkonaut

Click to see attachment 🖼️

If it's too long, it's too long. It was only fixed that clan and name collided

Can i ban MAC-adress?

no

feelsbadman

wrong chat (edited)

how can i make an autoexec file?

thats what some closed src games do dont they? They send the MAC for extra ban options and tracking.

Iza

how can i make an autoexec file?

create file in config dir and name it autoexec.cfg

where's the config dir?

https://wiki.ddnet.tw/wiki/FAQ

Here you can find a collection of frequently asked questions.

lmao FAQ

17:55

we need a FAQ bot now :D

17:55

!faq config

it doesnt execute at start

@Iza server or client autoexec

client

autoexec_client.cfg

17:56

but it also uses autoexec.cfg as fallback

i tried autoexec.cfg and it did nothing

did you also put smth into it?

yes

sometimes it expects it in the data directory, maybe not the case for client though

i did put it in data dir

i should always use config dir first

just put it in appdata too

i tried that after data dir

17:59

maybe i should rename it into autoexec_client.cfg?

you can try

17:59

also make sure it has the proper ending

17:59

in windows the file ending is default off

17:59

so its not autoexec.cfg.txt

17:59

or smth

maybe it doesnt work like i expect it to because its a say command

chillerdragon[m]: sending mac address in closed source games works about as well as in open source games

a say command in a bind or just a say command? if you exec say when the game first starts that's not going to do anything

18:04

since you're not in a server immediately

18:05

unless autoexec works on server join and not game start?

@Learath2 I want a view like the packet view in wireshark. I want to put structured logs in there though. do you know if such a product exists?

18:05

autoexec is on game start

chiller

we should at least have an event for server join

18:06

i dont see why this would be game-breaking

18:06

i hate messing up my zoom binds just connecting to another server

CHILLER

lynn

a say command in a bind or just a say command? if you exec say when the game first starts that's not going to do anything

i dont want a bind for it, i just need it to be always there

ok but where would your client say it, you're not connected to a server yet

18:07

im pretty confused about what you want exactly

18:07

what does the say do?

a say command that executes on server join

cant do that

/ninjajetpack

heinrich5991

@Learath2 I want a view like the packet view in wireshark. I want to put structured logs in there though. do you know if such a product exists?

Doesnt come to mind

there's no event binding

18:08

wish there was...

18:08

but i understand why it's not added yet

18:08

it would be (potentially) cheat-like for some event types

but not on server join

nope, that would be like setting up an event listener, which has been talked about but idk

18:09

idk if the devs have any background on this but i would at least like to see a server join event

18:10

the syntax would be like bind, on server_join cmd

or at least change the /ninjajetpack to have saved state

if /ninjajetpack was a client setting then it just fixes that yeah (edited)

18:11

and honestly, i would prefer that too

18:11

but i understand why that's complicated

18:12

since you appear as a ninja because of the server and others also see you as a ninja i believe

then the server should save that

well, that's not really helpful if you change servers

18:13

there are no name-based server settings

18:13

that would be insecure anyway

it can communicate to other servers since its all ddnet

mm but i think it's best that there is no server level settings for players

18:14

since someone else could use your name and fuck with your settings

18:14

it's not a good idea imo

how about bans? how are they saved?

ip

18:14

but ip bans are easily avoided

is there no userid ban?

basically no matter how you skin the cat, there's no consistent way to do anything on the server in ddnet lol

18:14

in terms of player data

18:15

it's either based on ip or name

that's why i suggested a set uid for everyone

i mean there should just be auth

18:15

but some people prefer no auth

18:15

i don't really care either way but i am leaning towards auth

i don't like the idea of someone taking my name and finishing maps

18:16

since i wanna finish them

:p

#3411

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/3411

Accounts · Issue #3411 · ddnet/ddnet

If anyone wants to summarize the discussion, feel free to. I just wanted to create the issue now.

start a petition

18:16

yeah lol

18:16

its been a topic for forever

there's a reason why people keep suggesting it

express your opinion there, cuz having this discussion here will most likely get lost by tomorrow

idfk know what you have against it

fair

18:18

"u can just Come and start playing instead of being annoyed with login shit" this is the crux of their argument but literally every other game has account-based player data already lol

18:18

it's not some magic luxury that teeworlds was set up this way, it's just how it happens to be

just make a one time auth on ip

whether it was intentional or not doesn't really matter

18:19

i like the uid idea

18:19

but wondering how simple it would be to get someone's UID

yes and literally every other games is closed source. Just because all are doing it it does not mean its good

i don't see what being closed source has to do with necessitating account-based player data

yea lol

when i sign up for gitlab i dont expect them to pull out a sign that says "our number one policy is openness so there are no accounts"

nothing, just your argument being refuted

Oh man its a comparison. The focus of my statement lays on "dont just copy what others do because they do it but see if its better to do so"

but sometimes its better to look what the better one's are doing

they're not related at all, it's not a matter of because they're doing it, it's just sensical

So then bring arguments. should be very easy when the majority does it one way

wtf

security, ownership, appeals + functional decisions about player account data

18:22

there are many pros

everyone wants it

not everyone

except for the people who cheat

but a lot of people do

Thankyou for starting to name reasons, thats all I wanted to get.

plus not to mention BANNING PEOPLE IS EASIER lol

[freenode] kamillentee[m]

Thankyou for starting to name reasons, thats all I wanted to get.

it's common sense what she said

18:24

the reasons

i accept that it will likely never happen

18:24

i just will never shut up about it as long as i am hooking and hammering

if you want to have a proper argument, say the reasons, even if they're "common sense"

agree

18:25

dont understand why we cant do opt-in authentication like kog

[quakenet] heinrich5991

if you want to have a proper argument, say the reasons, even if they're "common sense"

i'm 99% sure the reasons she mentioned were mentioned a long time ago

it isnt intrusive for anyone

it's just a circle

just go to github to discuss it I guess

18:26

you're basically rehashing the arguments

because you want us to basically

im done talking about it, mostly cus yea its been said

18:26

also i have to work xd

I don't think kogs account system will help with ban evasions, im pretty sure they still rely on ip-based bans

I dont like how KoG is doing it. There is no advantage. It just made [!Fake] clan bigger than KoG and nobody cares if you are logged in or not.

18:30

Optional accounts are useless anyway and forced accounts should not be centralized. Other than that I dont care about accounts

then make a better system

WAV you have a way of discussing that does not help with anything

as much as i appreciate your enthusiasm WAV i have to agree lol

i'm sry but this problem doesn't seem to have any end since there are pages of discussions about it xd

well by optional auth i didnt mean exactly like kog. there should be some in-client reminder that you can log in besides just a server echo

18:32

plus maybe some badge on the website or something that your name is tied to an account so others can prove no one has submitted times on your behalf

18:32

well, unless you share accounts ofc

18:33

some incentive for it (edited)

18:33

but i agree that it should be centralized. i only bring up optional accounts as a compromise to the purists who can't handle accounts being added lol

18:33

it seems that that github issue is fairly recent though and the last reply was only a month ago

18:34

my understanding was that it was more stale

I don't think it should be centralized

18:35

this would give a single point of failure

i misread what you said, and i think im using centralized in a bad way, i mean primary

One advantage of accounts could be whitelisting against ddos. We did this back then for tournaments on nfo servers.

name changes would become a trivial and less sticky request to make, banning accounts in general would be much better, since they would need to make another account

Embedded image

you wouldn't need to play detective as much with people's identity, you'd put some level of trust in the auth system and offer facilities for detecting new logins + safe account recovery

18:41

makes moderation so much easier

18:43

i have had hour long conversations with USA mods before about whether or not someone was intentionally name-faking me on my deadname and halfway through the conversation i just couldn't care less anymore

18:43

it's just more cognitive load than it's worth lmao

just head over to the github issue, otherwise next week you'll tell the same arguments ;)

what heinrich said :P

i don't plan to talk about it after this, but if i feel like i have sufficient talking points past what has been said already i will post there

18:45

at least not on this server ;)

IMO bans work good enough already. I dont see that huge problem right now. Spammers can be muted and blockers are not that common like all people think. I dont encounter them often as the maps are mostly made a way that makes blocking hard. I only see it on multieasymap and on KoG. As KoG has a majority vote blockers are not a big problem there either.

You can't compare kog with ddnet

I dont, I compare more the maps. Gores makes spawnblocking kinda easy.

how will accounts help with spawn blocking

we do have a problem of spammers evading their bans with proxies

not just spammers

they're saying it won't have an effect @Deleted User

18:47

it would definitely cut down on repeat offenders though

argh now I accidentally wrote something again :<

since there is a particular person who is quite persistent xD

→ github issue ;)

i mean, i guess i still contributed by making you think about the issue again :D

i think someone should just implement it, and then the discussion can start xD

in a fork?

no

19:01

just implement everything semi decentral and rest happens from itself

test servers? or what were u thinking?

nope, just start implementing it

so add the login protocol while no one is using it, so that it can be tested when it's decided

Deleted User

i think someone should just implement it, and then the discussion can start xD

yeah people here are making it way too complicated

no

19:05

it is actually complicated lol

i just feel like ppl are acting like its something insane to plan. just make it so that you can play without account, having it loginable over ddnet for the normal ppl(which saves ur private key, bcs ppl will 100% loose it), and decentral as implementation and for the ppl that absolutly dont want to have it stored in ddnet

i knew someone of you'd say that

it can't add too much friction or some players will be upset

19:05

just how it is

@Deleted User comment on github please

19:05

I posted a design, even ^^

also i didnt see this but heinrich said rcon passwords can go away except for one-time passwords which is a HUGE plus for self-hosted

i feel like @Learath2 said everything needed there

like this would save me so much time haha

or you

19:06

dunno both all

yes, that's quite nice @lynn

once all sql stuff and protocl is done the rest happens from itself i assume

19:06

bcs then there is feedback and not so much todo anymore

people are afraid of this shadow that doesnt even exist yet, but maybe if they could see the face of it they could judge it properly?

the normal ppl wont even see it until its some kind of ready for test

19:08

it really more like, now nobody really wants to start bcs it nobody is really sure what todo or where to start

19:08

i could be wrong and maybe somebody did start, but dunno who

like most long forgotten issues lol

19:09

anyone done any tests of it? it seems like someone posted a web app of something

19:09

but it's no longer active

Most people dont enjoy making things that will generate a lot of drama

but also most ppl for some reason think they need an account then

i support accounts!

1

even tho most devs here agree not todo forced accounts

speak to the existing player base and ask them how they feel when their name is being used by a new player ;)

idc?

i am wondering how you would handle not forcing accounts

19:11

like does accounts even mean much at that point

yes

19:11

u can transfer points

i guess you could have some badge in game as well?

to any name u want

if you need to force it onto users, then it's obviously not good

to show you are logged in?

"display name"

19:11

yeah in scoreboard it could be shown too

but if they appear the same then no one knows

19:11

yeah okay

in fng save server i allowed both

19:12

worked fine, except that /login is unsafe, bcs no encryption

19:12

so i added a session key i think xd

19:12

https://aliveclan.de/#ranks

19:13

the green ones are the ones with accounts

heinrich5991

idc?

well that was just 1 example of use case

I wanted to provide a point that it's not obviously something that the existing player base wants

Deleted User

https://aliveclan.de/#ranks

deutsch

PepeA

well using discord does not give a proper representation of 'player base' as its heavily skewed and most people here dont like change which i cannot understand.

19:15

e.g. strong hook on all

Ryozuki

deutsch

PepeA

bottom right u can select language

omg

very smooth with javascript xDDD

19:16

now i forgot that language completly xD

poggers

Image attachment

cant even write simple php stuff anymore

русский doesn't work

most is empty xD

nice logo tho

its not really translated

19:16

bcs the russian guy that wanted it just didnt answer xD

https://uniqueclan.net/ shameless plug PepeA

PepeA

@SPYRES why even ask on discord if you're going to discard the feedback anyway? ^^

True, but it atleast gives you some idea which is better than none at all. Eitherway, what ever you do in life you wont be able to please everyone.

19:22

Take that guy (banana090) who coded fix for weak, as soon as the skewed polls said "no" he dipped and I didnt see him implement another feature after that (unless I could be wrong). If I were a dev I would be heavily discouraged by that (again ironic because I havent contributed coding wise) but it is what it is.

but you can still try to please the most people and not use that phrase to justify not doing that

SPYRES

Take that guy (banana090) who coded fix for weak, as soon as the skewed polls said "no" he dipped and I didnt see him implement another feature after that (unless I could be wrong). If I were a dev I would be heavily discouraged by that (again ironic because I havent contributed coding wise) but it is what it is.

i think we voted most of his features

19:22

and they are even in now

19:23

from dev side, it was mostly about code quality

Yes, but we talking UI/UX changes there. Ofc every player will say yes lol. (edited)

what?

19:23

no

19:23

I welcome you to check the votes

e.g. we also voted to use less roundings, but most disagreed

19:24

even tho e.g. list have roundings in roundings which just looks bad xD

19:24

example

Image attachment

favoriten

yoo

that's at least good for recognizing where one button ends and another starts

19:25

good for UX

i play deutsch

there is a saying, users only use 20% of the features or smth like that

Anyways, I dont want to drag this on. I have stated afew points and I appreciate your feedback.

but we have Ravie, he is graphic god, he can come up with smth better, also before that, we didnt havce that roundings

19:26

it was voted as part of animations

https://dzone.com/articles/applying-8020-rule-software

Applying the 80:20 Rule in Software Development - DZone Agile

19:26

yoo

Ryozuki

there is a saying, users only use 20% of the features or smth like that

i bet there are many unused config vars

19:26

like 90% xD

Image attachment

19:27

the buttons and inputs itself in ddnet feel like a 2010 program tbh

2010? thats pretty new xDD

but this is what happens when u draw a rect and dont use a texture like most games

19:28

imagine a cutey teeish themed button

without a nice background map ddnet looks like 1995 xD

xd

white in white

Image attachment

19:29

soo much white

19:29

it always kills me xD

19:29

everything is a transparent white

19:29

just transparency changes

factorio is the perfect example of a good but really functional ui imho

19:30

they perfected it even more after 1.0

19:31

Image attachment

19:31

i love it

19:31

yoo

Image attachment

layout nice

19:31

design is ok

19:31

osu ui is insane imo

19:31

osu!lazer

Ryozuki

yoo

these previews are nice

@louis osu focused a lot on animations

19:32

its true it looks nice, but you have to take into account

19:32

their ui needs are super simple

19:32

just scroll and select a song

monkalaugh

its a bit more but yeah its more simple

19:34

osu!lazer has a lot more tho

also their api is rly good https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/

19:34

and u can make menus with it so ez

yeah you also need the anime background preview

like u can visit the online stats from inside the game, where u usually need to just tab out to chrome

19:34

i wish ddnet had smth like that

you guys are gonna distract me by talking about osu

19:34

ddnet mapping approval should be like osu's

19:34

i will die on this hill

lynn

ddnet mapping approval should be like osu's

how long have you been around ddnet?

19:35

monkalaugh

justatest

map testing is the thing that always makes drama

19:35

no matter the year

8 months

osu maps are a lot more simple tho

monkalaugh

i think a modified system would be great tho

19:35

btw why does discord keep bugging me to use their dumb stickers

just let people play maps on unranked servers

19:36

vote for their favorites

19:36

then voted ones are looked at by approval team

19:36

so much better than just "think your map is good enough randomly? submit it!"

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/img/blog/fff-361-tips-110-drag-building.mp4 if we had the ability to render easily anywhere making tips would be rly ez

but the thing its probably easier to join shit maps on ddnet than osu

my favorite maps i have made became good because of rapid iteration based on feedback

19:37

you can't do that with the current system, at least not without really good friends

19:38

who will join your private server... where it's the same map... and you're afk in editor...

19:38

but on a public server? people can change the map if they're bored and try all sorts of maps

19:38

idk imo the current system is HIGHLY exclusionary and doesn't really help newer mappers

19:39

too intimidating

i mean

black box of submit map

u cant expect ppl to join "unranked" maps

right up there with ddnet mods and popular mappers

they dont play on test servers normally

because they're password protected

thats not true

19:39

ppl enjoy playing actual maps over test servers

19:40

even if they know the pass they'd probably rather play on big t0 servers or whatever

19:40

cause with testmaps ur 50% playing trash maps

have a contribution rating then, idc xD

19:40

i know i wouldnt care

19:40

i would play trash maps if i cared about the person making it

19:40

just like i would play a trash novice with a noob

19:40

same thing

19:41

its not because of the experience im having

19:41

it's about who im helping

what if someone has no friends

public server + you might find it fun to dig through random maps with friends

19:41

or random people

19:41

doesnt matter

19:41

it's like mario maker super expert

19:41

yeah the levels are shit

19:42

but it's interesting to see what crazy stuff you find

19:44

the game being open-ended and trusting of its users are core values of the game, i dont see why those same values cant be upheld with the mapping system

19:45

ok im really gonna go back to work now xd

usually the problem is that nobody wants to code it

https://whatlang.org/

Whatlang - natural langauge detection library for Rust

Whatlag is a Rust library for natural langauge detection (English, German, Russian, Arabic, etc.)

1

f3 if you know rust (and by know i mean like, basic types and how to fix the compiler warnings yourself)

21:02

im curious how many devs know it

u havent read this channel?

21:02

i spam rust everyday

21:02

monkalaugh

no i know that

21:02

i want to know how many others

heinrich knows it, patiga too

21:02

timakro learned a bit too

o

21:03

any reason the devs role isnt visible in the sidepane btw?

learath is a C guy

just not important enough to show?

@lynn because it means nothing

i think it means something :D

if u make some commits u will get it

fair enough

21:03

i would like to be able to see all the devs at one view though

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/graphs/contributors

DDraceNetwork, a cooperative racing mod of Teeworlds - ddnet/ddnet

21:04

monkalaugh

u

do /credits

21:04

on any server

plus github name is not always the same as on discord

21:04

but ty

ye mine is not same

21:04

Image attachment

21:04

coffee

wait d3fault is a dev? o-o

well not everyone in credits is a dev

oh

well idk now

well i dont think i see other mods

21:07

so who else would it be?

21:07

well actually

21:08

it says "& others" so maybe it would

21:08

i guess we would need to define "help" lol

d3fault coded a few things

@Ryozuki even konsti made some code xD

aPES2_Insane

d3fault is in my simp army

Ryozuki

Click to see attachment 🖼️

DDRace by the DDRace developers, from which I think heinrich and me are the only ones still here

sadSnail

SadCat

edg-l missing

edg-l is ryozuki

21:37

@Ryozuki edg-l is your real name?

on github its the username ye

21:37

you can guess my name by going to my profile

edward lueusuqugue

21:39

or smth

21:39

oh i was close

edward lueis

xdd

21:40

edgar

21:40

i think its german

21:40

or maybe not

21:40

who knows

i want to rq my job so bad

wats ur job

someone find me a system programming job

21:40

web dev

21:40

i hate it

21:40

shopify

monkalaugh

please end my suffering

21:41

no i do not want to copy a newsletter module from one store to another

21:41

i think i would rather put my head in a jet engine

monkaS

:( (edited)

monkaS

i have been thinking about moving out of this apartment and in with a bunch of roommates, and just get a regular job somewhere random (edited)

21:49

being a dev is not all it's cracked up to be, at least the type of work im doing anyway

lab_pepewut

live in cardboard box

21:50

dont u get paid if ur a dev

ofc

like a good amount

i mean

21:51

i can pay my rent at least

21:51

1.6k (edited)

21:51

but i could make more at literally any other dev company

oh

dont remind me on job pls, need to get one too xDD

if it has "front-end" in the job title back away slowly and dont break eye contact

Ryozuki

Click to see attachment 🖼️

didn't know my name was credited

can someone master ban fokkonaut server for this atrocity?

Image attachment

random pointless coding project: making this page a table https://ddnet.tw/mappers/

23:50

sort by total, type

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