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DDraceNetwork
Development / developer
Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet
Between 2021-04-14 00:00:00Z and 2021-04-15 00:00:00Z
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is there a recommended ddnet base version for modding?
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i would also like to know
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Cool bug : when u have show others DDnet settings activated and u write /specteam, when u /pause u dont see anyone even ppl in ur own team :D
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@TsFreddie @lynn use the newest version, I'd say
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justatest apparently modding standards back in ddnet is more difficult than i thought.
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and even better: don't just copy our ddnet code, but make a fork and regularly merge new ddnet development into your mod (edited)
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some people just make a copy and then never update their mod based on new ddnet changes anymore
07:25
if you regularly merge ddnet in again you get all the improvements being done upstream
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kough kough
07:25
yoo
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@TsFreddie r u planning on making a mod?
07:26
one thing is that if ur mod doesnt use many features of race u will end up removing lot of code
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ye, i'm kinda doing that rn.
07:28
it's like choosing between modding part of ddnet's protocol into teeworlds or modding teeworlds back into ddnet.
07:29
kek i was actually planning to hookup libtw2 from nodejs, but i gave that up really quickly
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i always want to make the server in rust but its 2 much work and i just laze around
07:31
but actually make the sv in a rusty way
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ouch 😄
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and no unsafe
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@ libtw2 from nodejs
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why nodejs
07:32
does libtw2 compile to wasm
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presumably because that's a language @TsFreddie is coofortable with? 😉
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ye, i do almost everything now in typescript
07:33
there's a library that called neon that can call rust code. but i kinda don't know where to start with rust binding.
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is official ddnet clienta build with websocket support, and is official servers are using it?
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there is also assemblyscript which is a typescript look-a-like that compiles to wasm. but its wasi binding doesn't have sockets yet. so i can't code the server part entirely in wasm so meh. (edited)
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there was some progress but the websocket server made clients crash iirc
07:35
ah ye it made clients freeze or smth at the server list iirc
07:35
atleast for me
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i can probably also just grab ddnet's c++ code and make a nodejs's napi library.
07:36
non of those easy tho
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so master list uses websocket then? optionally
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no, master server doesn't support websockets, official servers don't have it enabled either
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Do you need a turkish translator and a turkish moderator in your game?@heinrich5991
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Moderator applications are possible on the ddnet forum (staff section), but I think we're not actively looking atm
08:14
turkish translation is at 88%, you can edit the file and send us an update: https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/master/data/languages/turkish.txt
DDraceNetwork, a cooperative racing mod of Teeworlds - ddnet/ddnet
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deen
turkish translation is at 88%, you can edit the file and send us an update: https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/master/data/languages/turkish.txt
Where should I send after I have flipped the untranslated places?
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You can make a pull request on github, or just send me a DM with the file
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okay
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smone interested in updating the php scripts for the skin database on the website? it needs a sync function or smth that is called, when a skin is added, removed, whatever
13:11
for the community tab
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:14:57Z
deen would also be nice ddnet would merge more upstream too :)
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Code is in https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-web/tree/master/www/skins , we use it straight from there
Static part of DDNet's website: https://ddnet.tw/. Contribute to ddnet/ddnet-web development by creating an account on GitHub.
13:15
chillerdragon[m]: I knew you'd say that. Unfortunately 0.7 brought some changes we didn't want, so we only selectively cherry-picked fixes/changes
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:16:36Z
Yea sure 0.7 is tricky
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what even was in ur mind?
13:17
the skin system?
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:17:10Z
I mean more the small non ddrace improvements that happend over the years. Like more auto mapper features for example.
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Sure, would accept them
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I think the problem is, ppl like Lea, who would be interested in this, are probably more interested in rewritting it completly xD
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:18:31Z
accpet? :D I mean propose those to the upstream instead of keeping them in ddnet
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u want more ddnet in 0.7?
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:19:04Z
i want more ddnet in upstream yes
13:19
same as deen wants more ddnet downstream in ddnet
13:19
There are a few things ddnet client/server have that are nice and non 0.6/0.7 related and not ddrace related.
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vanilla doesnt want c++11 tho, and ddnet shifts to it slowly
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:20:13Z
Yea I noticed
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same with STL
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:32:08Z
@QshaR any idea why KoG server keeps reconnecting me? Happend 3 times in a row after a few minutes.
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 13:42:05Z
hmm ddnet client seems to work is this some sort of custom client trolling? :/
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[3:51 PM] Patiga: Chillerdragon asks why his client (chillerbot/chillerbot-ux) is being blocked, he can't connect to a kog server with it could that please get fixed? [3:51 PM] Avolicious: Maybe bots inside the client?
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:04:17Z
none activated
14:04
there is a bot that walks right and left but its not on
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I guess the client is banned if features that are considered cheats are built in
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:08:18Z
i doubt the client is known and it is considered cheats
14:09
works fine on ddnet maybe its the custom client info thing i send
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unlikely, unknown messages are ignored
14:09
kog is more aggressive about kicking bots
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:09:40Z
u know kog?
14:10
well i cant think of much else that would identify the client
14:15
i am fine on ddnet servers since 8 minutes now so seems to be kog only
14:16
sorry for abusing this bridge but i have no other way to contact kog :/
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(I'm done relaying messages. I don't see how this is resolved without much back and forth before you remove the thing you said might be a cheat)
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lol kog banned me for a legit client and called it a botclient so i mean i wouldnt expect much from them
14:21
just play on ddnet client there or dont send custom client info maybe
14:21
i'd be wary about testing bots there tho
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:22:53Z
@heinrich5991 i can activate thing that defends me from afk blockers and tries to hold x position by walking left and right. There is no way this is detectable when off at all times.
think_bot 1
14:23
but sure yea relaying messages is annoying kog needs a bridge
14:23
@louis ddnet client lacks some features like auto greet and auto login i really start to like :)
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I'm not saying that this specific feature is detected
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:24:09Z
its the most fishy thing about the client
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but saying that kog might consider your client a cheat client and therefore sees little reason to help you join their servers
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:24:23Z
ah ye i see
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ye i had a ping fake client + version number changer and got banned just for that xd
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:24:50Z
thats a bit fishier than mine tho :D
14:24
but still no reason for a ban imo
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doesn't sound too bad @louis if they don't want that stuff on kog
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i mean it does nothing gameplay wise
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so what? maybe they have a different attitude to client mods than ddnet rules ^^
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yeah which is bad imo
14:25
i don't like their anticheat at all
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:26:00Z
ddnet rules are fucked too ;D
14:26
why are there no anarchy gores or ddrace servers? :/
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host one
14:26
anarchy ddrace is just block btw
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 14:26:56Z
most block servers have bad race
14:28
yea anways i would love to give this a try @qshar hope i can ping u :/ this is my client https://github.com/chillerbot/chillerbot-ux if there is something illegal in it please tell me
chillerbot-ux UserExperience based on DDraceNetwork, a mod of Teeworlds - chillerbot/chillerbot-ux
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where is the Controls button that put deepfly ? ;-;
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it's gone. it was buggy
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i never had problem with it ;-;
15:03
well can u tell me what was the 2 cmds then ?
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I don't know, sorry
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Summary ======= The idea of this is that clients will not have to ping each server for server infos which takes long, leaks the client's IP address even to servers the user does not join and is a DoS vector of the game servers for attackers. For the Internet, DDNet and KoG tab, the server list is entirely fetched from the master server, filtering out servers that don't belong into the list. The favorites tab is also supposed to work that way, except for servers that are marked...
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its so fast wtf
15:38
Guess kog needs some compability xd, only sohws 16 players per server
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bruh
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@heinrich5991 does anything change for the server?
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Fwiw I’d want to get all the way to C++17 if not for some older distros
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 15:54:30Z
maybe my client is bugged i also get random reconnects on ur server @fokkonaut :/
15:54
wat did i do .-.
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@fokkonaut for now, not
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[freenode] chillerdragon[m] BOT 2021-04-14 15:59:06Z
probably broke my client sowwy for blaming u qshar :D
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something will change in the future, so that one will be less vulnerable against serverinfo request spoofing
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Learath2
Fwiw I’d want to get all the way to C++17 if not for some older distros
i want c++20
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20 not even most compilers are ready for, but I would love it too
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clang acutally compiles a bit faster just bcs of auto module includes
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Concepts are so cute
16:02
Modules are also nice tho our codebase is pretty small to benefit from them
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tru
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It might allow us to include massive libraries if we need tho,
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heinrich5991
something will change in the future, so that one will be less vulnerable against serverinfo request spoofing
does that mean vanilla is more dead now.
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no. backward compatibility will be retained
16:03
but for those who like their servers to not get attacked, will have to change a bit
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heinrich5991
no. backward compatibility will be retained
I’m really excited to see how you pull this one off 😛
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wdym? the server list in the PR functions rn
16:04
it's the backward compatibility that will be retained
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Ah you mean a different thing
16:05
Nvm me, too tired
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@TsFreddie wdym on "feedback on the TODOs"?
16:06
I'm aware of the things I explictily marked as TODO. if there are more things to do, please do mention them
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Where was that again?
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in the code 😄
16:07
ctrl-f TODO
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i asked
16:07
I'm on mi phone rn
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sorry, @Deleted User ^^
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well if the todos are in the code ok
16:08
didnt look at it yet 😄
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feel free to comment any concerns you have if you don't want to look into the code @Deleted User
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I thought I did something dumb way back.
16:09
kek
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heinrich5991
feel free to comment any concerns you have if you don't want to look into the code @Deleted User
i mean like, e.g. player sorting and stuff like that
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ah sure, comment that 🙂
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i mean i only used it for like 10seconds yet xD dunno if you checked all functionality yet or just imeplemented it
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heinrich5991
@fokkonaut for now, not
how does it interact with the server then?
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a backend server querying servers
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ahhh, okay
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does map name in downloadedmaps folder need only sha256 or both crc32 and sha256 for ddnet server?
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only first
19:55
since a few versions
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making a script to clean up a little bit as i got some maps in double due to this ^_^
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i think heinrich posted one here once
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im doing symlink to get both version at the same time but on windows, so i guess its a lil bit different
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@heinrich5991 no Serverinfo token?? :/
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wdym @fokkonaut
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Does this also fix serverinfo packet spam?
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it reduces the amount of legit packets atleast
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Deleted User
Guess kog needs some compability xd, only sohws 16 players per server
Yeah, seen that behaviour, kinda strange but will be fixed soon
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louis
yeah which is bad imo
Whats bad about banning bots? 😄
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its not bot
21:29
at least my client wasnt
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Well, as this game is open source its hard to detect all kind of bots
21:31
Everyone can modify DDNet & implement his/her own bot-system, this is why we're working on an aggressive anti-cheat
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the antibot code that ive seen is naive, relying on things like version ids to detect bots
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lynn
the antibot code that ive seen is naive, relying on things like version ids to detect bots
KoG is closed source
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only allowing certain clients and having a super aggressive anti-cheat that bans even if there isn't proof of bots is really against the spirit of teeworlds imo
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yea but im just saying, from what ive seen
21:33
i dont doubt they use similar methods
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louis
only allowing certain clients and having a super aggressive anti-cheat that bans even if there isn't proof of bots is really against the spirit of teeworlds imo
Just use the official DDNet/teeworlds client & you're fine
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Avolicious
Yeah, seen that behaviour, kinda strange but will be fixed soon
i meant directly related to heinrichs https master server, and i assume its a missing feature on the script that generates the server list 😄
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Deleted User
i meant directly related to heinrichs https master server, and i assume its a missing feature on the script that generates the server list 😄
Okay, I spent already some time into debugging (edited)
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louis
only allowing certain clients and having a super aggressive anti-cheat that bans even if there isn't proof of bots is really against the spirit of teeworlds imo
i agree, the game is mostly pretty lax about this sort of thing, and sure it can cause some issues with real malicious actors but i prefer that over the alternative, which is being naive
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and its not like u cant fake ddnet/teeworlds client version and have bots as well
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Avolicious
Okay, I spent already some time into debugging (edited)
yeah but normal clients work fine, it might be just that the packet info changed or smth
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ya i just think
21:35
as long as the game is open-source you cant have true bot detection
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so its not directly Kog problem, more of the script that contacts kog servers
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louis
and its not like u cant fake ddnet/teeworlds client version and have bots as well
We detect them 🙂
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well i appreciate the level of kog anticheat especially with replaybotters (ive seen a lot of replaybotters banned) but there are ways to improve
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so trying to close-source stuff and add your own implementations for that is kind of meaningless and just a hinderance
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Avolicious
We detect them 🙂
and u dont know if u cant detect the ones that actually work
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it makes me not want to support certain servers
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like imo the spam click kog ban thing is rly bad
21:36
thats a place that could be improved
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yup broso has been wrongly banned for it a few times
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Why do you need spam in gores?
21:37
You cant benefit from spamming around
21:37
There is no reason to jitter-click
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well, dont NEED but if it happens accidentally you shouldn't get banned
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idk but people complain very often
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louis isn't arguing about its purpose
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unless they are all lying i think its a problem
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it happens sometimes
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lynn
well, dont NEED but if it happens accidentally you shouldn't get banned
Jitter-clicking gets banned rarely
21:37
Only ~1 / 25 bans
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im curious about the false positive rate, maybe it bans a lot of cheaters but u get autobanned for spamhooking while standing still / on a platform which doesn't make sense to detect as bot
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and plus, i agree you dont benefit from jitter click which is why it shouldnt be bannable lol, or at least not like the way it's implemented now
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@Learath2 PepeA
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ghost ping bout to make somebody act up
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louis
im curious about the false positive rate, maybe it bans a lot of cheaters but u get autobanned for spamhooking while standing still / on a platform which doesn't make sense to detect as bot
Well, dont lets go too much into detail, its detecting more bots than false-positive
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imo the way gores bans should work, is that suspicious replays should instead be stored to a special place for review, and a moderator of that server should review it
21:41
instead of just "i think you're cheating beep boop here's a ban"
21:41
i dont think there are a million people using cheat clients in gores lol, more than manageable for a mod to review by hand
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lynn
imo the way gores bans should work, is that suspicious replays should instead be stored to a special place for review, and a moderator of that server should review it
Well, you need to have moderators for such taks
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yeah well we do
21:41
people run kog
21:42
idk who but assuming they can spare 5 minutes to look at a replay every month or so
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You've ever played gores?
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of course
21:42
i know what human gores gameplay looks like lol
21:43
normalized setups
21:43
i actually think gores is easier to moderate in this way than ddrace, there's really no reason not to do it this way
21:44
ddrace is harder because certain techniques in ddrace are more nuanced in their execution and it would be easier to make a convincing bot client
21:45
@louis what are your thoughts on this?
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Okay, before we spam ddnet discord with a gores ( kog ) discussion, we could switch to KoG discord instead.
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lol im not in that server, but im okay with stopping the conversation (edited)
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Gores isnt that easy to administrate as many of you currently think of. There are a lot of bots used in the past & currently being developed.
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how many people are actively finishing maps that flag bot detection though
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idk the replay thing would be great for kog and ddrace too but its hard to implement
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i mean, if you have logic for banning users you use that same logic for notifying a moderator
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maybe we should just accept that there are botters everywhere and enjoy the game justatest
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and you could probably pretty easily set up a bot that receives network requests with a finish db record and the name of a replay file
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lynn
i mean, if you have logic for banning users you use that same logic for notifying a moderator
Once more, maybe you missed the point. There has to be someone who activly reviews demo's.
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and then also send a discord message
21:48
i dont think that's an issue though, just imo
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lynn
i dont think that's an issue though, just imo
Our team is not even of half the size of DDNet 😄
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i dont really know how often bans happen but i doubt it's too much to personally review
21:48
cant say the same for ddrace
21:50
people who successfully dodge bot protection and finish maps still get caught in a similar way with ddrace, correct? @louis
21:50
if they get rank 1 for example and it's way ahead of anyone
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i feel like i have seen posts about finishes getting removed that were determined to be cheated
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idk if im allowed to talk about bot detection on ddnet also idek how it works but yes teehistorian allows for some post-rank processing
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its more about abusing bugs in this case
21:51
but yeah, there were also cases for replay bots in the past
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and those were decisions the moderators made right?
21:52
how often did that sort of thing happen?
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its not really moderators
21:52
its more like, somehow there was some inconsistency, and then the admins investigated
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but ddnet also has a direct bot protection as far as i know
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are detected bots banned immediately or marked for review?
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guess directly
21:54
there is veeery weak instant bot detection
21:54
i.e. client vers check
21:55
doesnt instaban for aimbot or anything like that
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ddnet has a closed source anti bot tho
21:55
we dont really know what they can detect
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ye i believe that isn't instant tho
21:55
maybe it is but ive never seen someone get banned instantly for anything other than bad client
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ok in that case i think this can be applied to the kog conversations
21:56
where determination is only instantly made if there's a good chance it's a bot client, instead of just a guess
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I know how to stop bots on kog
21:56
Its pretty easy
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anyone know if kog / ddnet has more of a cheating problem?
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teeworlds has xD
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200% of block community
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lynn
anyone know if kog / ddnet has more of a cheating problem?
Teeworlds yep
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that i can agree with
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Deleted User
200% of block community
fng too 🙂
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Delete kog tab from ddnet client and there will be No players haha
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Ama
Delete kog tab from ddnet client and there will be No players haha
i've them under favorites still xd
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But most players wont 🤣
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is it a sensitive topic to ask why ddnet hosts custom modes but not gores-specific maps?
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with https master server, it will be nice to use internet tab again
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like why kog is the only real main one
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lynn
is it a sensitive topic to ask why ddnet hosts custom modes but not gores-specific maps?
XDDDD
21:59
now the war can begin
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lynn
like why kog is the only real main one
Maybe because KoG is based upon racing like ddrace?
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is it... dare i say... an argumentative topic????
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And DDNet was made for the racing mode
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down with big ddnet
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Well, you could use teeworlds vanilla client 🙂
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ddrace doesnt host gores cuz kog exists also its kinda boring
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dont make me throw up pls
22:00
wow shots
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louis
ddrace doesnt host gores cuz kog exists also its kinda boring
gores community is the 2nd biggest
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It just happend communities build around them gametypes and thats really it
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cant be that boring
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louis
ddrace doesnt host gores cuz kog exists also its kinda boring
"boring" is kinda rude to gores players...
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well its my opinion
22:00
ddrace seems to only host mods that add something new to the game
22:00
gores is just diff style of map and it's not ddnet-style
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i mean to contrast, i think of unique, there's really interesting ideas on unique, but i think it's cool that they are separate (edited)
22:01
and i dont feel the same way about kog for some reason xD
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gores is for tryhards like me
lol 1
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race is boring too but at least it's fast paced
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race is also for tryhards
22:01
or oldschool ppl
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yeah xd
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idk i like race kinda
22:01
but you're right it can get boring
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Race is just really hard to get into i think
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i feel like race being boring is only because of the maps. there are good solo maps on ddnet so there could be better race maps naturally
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Its way to hard to get a decent time In most maps
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Ama
Race is just really hard to get into i think
Same with gores, racing ins/hards is also hard 🙂
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for me the hardest modes to get into are fng/vanilla
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fng is easy to get into
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cus there's very little way to show progress
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u just aim and shoot
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Gores can only be played with a ping of about 20 and No lags
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or feel gratification for anything lol
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Ama
Gores can only be played with a ping of about 20 and No lags
yea thats what i hate about it
22:03
lag once = u die
22:04
otherwise its decently fun for a chill gamemode
22:04
even if its kinda boring
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o i dont mean difficulty, just my willingness to play it
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vanilla is hard to get into on a good level czu theres a bunch of useless tech u need to know but otherwise its neat to fool around with
22:04
imo
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louis
even if its kinda boring
but you all play gores lol (edited)
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I dont play kog As the leaders are a bunch of dickheads
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yes i play it cus theres no good recent ddnet maps o_o
22:05
wait lets talk in #general or smth shouldnt we
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Yh lets move
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client-side anticheat is impossible in general, this has relatively little to do with being open-source
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heinrich5991
client-side anticheat is impossible in general, this has relatively little to do with being open-source
It will just slow down official clients, if ddnet would be closed source since beginning it would be another topic
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no. see huge games with companies with lots of money failing to fight against e.g. aimbots
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eventually a game big enough gets hypervisor based clients and then you have to rely on heuristics
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heinrich5991
no. see huge games with companies with lots of money failing to fight against e.g. aimbots
Thats because most of them dont wanna waste that much money into their anti-cheat solutions. Check VALORANT, imho the best anti-cheat yet, pretty aggressive thats why i cant play it
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it's a mess
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Same thing with DRM, most games removes DRM after ~1 week/month or after a game has been cracked
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Avolicious
Thats because most of them dont wanna waste that much money into their anti-cheat solutions. Check VALORANT, imho the best anti-cheat yet, pretty aggressive thats why i cant play it
no, it's because it's fundamentally impossible. you can only slow people down (edited)
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@heinrich5991 im sure you've never seen a client close to that for ddrace, right?
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heinrich5991
no, it's because it's fundamentally impossible. you can only slow people down (edited)
Well, cant deny that... but valorant uses client & server-side anticheats
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i cant imagine someone would spend that much time making a cheat client for ddrace lol
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lol valo client side is very intrusive but seems to be pretty good apparently
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Their concept is pretty solid, but they done a lot of research in that topic
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louis
lol valo client side is very intrusive but seems to be pretty good apparently
Well, they're banning hypervisors by default... sadly i cant play 😐
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@lynn I can't imagine someone spending so much time making a anticheat as comprehensive as these that are built by companies with lots of money
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heinrich5991
@lynn I can't imagine someone spending so much time making a anticheat as comprehensive as these that are built by companies with lots of money
Dont forget Man power & research
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yeah same lol
22:39
and i doubt it's that complicated though closed-source
22:39
oh that's banned word?
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please don't mention bot clients, thank
22:39
s
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but that client is just a ripoff of allthehaxx with some small lua scripts on top of it (lua support added by allthehaxx)
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ah yea then probably not
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i dont think public tw bot scheme is that developed
22:40
private bots may be powerful though, nobody can tell for sure
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btw you may want to revise this... #8 Don't promote or encourage illegal activities - Includes botting/cheating. ...to read as... #8 Don't discuss illegal activities - Includes botting/cheating.
22:41
but maybe that is too strict
22:41
since people often report botting and that wouldnt work
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making cheat clients easily searchable is the problem
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Anticheat is just a cat and mouse game
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