DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2021-04-09 00:00:00Z and 2021-04-10 00:00:00Z

ChillerDragon: hey

01:16

please read Wire

Please dear developers, remove /swap command forever, it just destroy the game. Effort will no longer mean anything, every time a player could not do something, he will just swap and his rank won't have any sense. I know we could do it with /save, but it was more tedious and not motivating because you had to stop playing. Now /swap is literally an exploit of it that I can't understand how it came from the developers themselves. Think about what you are doing, don't ruin this game with unnecessary features.

@sorgaxD deen literaly made tutorial how to abuse timeout protection to give someone else your tee.

05:08

i dont think its too bad

iirc swap has the same delay as save load

07:00

also anyone can finish with your name, that already makes ur rank not have "any" sense right?

07:01

a bit stupid argument tbh

sorgaxD

Please dear developers, remove /swap command forever, it just destroy the game. Effort will no longer mean anything, every time a player could not do something, he will just swap and his rank won't have any sense. I know we could do it with /save, but it was more tedious and not motivating because you had to stop playing. Now /swap is literally an exploit of it that I can't understand how it came from the developers themselves. Think about what you are doing, don't ruin this game with unnecessary features.

just so you know

Image attachment

07:01

77 comments

07:02

one of the most discussed pull requests

Ryozuki

iirc swap has the same delay as save load

swap can be planed tho. You don't actually have to wait. You just type it 30 seconds in advance

but you still get 60 seconds added to your time, so it doesn't help for speedrunning

Yes. I just want to make sure nobody calls arguments stupid without all side effects

Deleted User

Yes. I just want to make sure nobody calls arguments stupid without all side effects

well the stupid part was for the rank having sense or not

Oh ok

Swap as it is right now is really supposed to be a drop in replacement for the save/load swap being only a little more convenient. At the end of the day we have no way of preventing save/load swaps so removing swap doesnt change anything

who doesnt love long types FeelsGoodMan

FeelsGoodMan

Image attachment

Should we just remove swap and give it another go later? There seems to be more wrong with it from what I see in #general

11:21

Time mismatches can be very bad

how can be there time mismatch in team

Well technically everyone still has their own time

Huh

Ryozuki

who doesnt love long types FeelsGoodMan

FeelsGoodMan

max_age looks curious xd

11:26

week for cookie?

gerdoe

week for cookie?

im just testing tho

11:27

but ye

professional web-rust-ryo-programmer

coffee

murpi

how can be there time mismatch in team

I don’t know either but i swear that i had like idk 14min50 and Blurry 16min50 on destiny 2

11:36

We thought we wouldn’t have the r1

11:36

But we had 15.50

11:36

We didn’t understand at all

11:36

And we did 3 tee swaps or smth with different players

11:36

I guess it changed the time for one player and not for the others

11:37

But then you don’t really know which time you are gonna get

11:37

Didn’t notice on the other ranks though

windows rly sux, i have a "old" 1tb HDD where i keep stuff like anime, so since i play some win only games on windows and sometimes i wanted to watch anime I shared this drive with windows, i had it formatted with btrfs and installed a btrfs driver on windows, but for some reason (after some days) windows programs started freezing like crazy, and after removing the drive it was fixed, but on linux this drive works flawlessly

14:21

linux win

i think u mixed them up

i didnt mix anything bro

14:21

i know my setup

you would get along well with my dad. he even put pinguin stickers on his windows key and back side monitor

‍♂️

PepeA

yeah yeah windows comes preinstalled with bloatware but at least it isnt preinstalled with 50 bugs u have to find a fix for on some obscure stackexchange page

1

linux also doesnt come with bugs

PepeLaugh

nice one

god u are dumb af

14:23

a missing driver is not a bug btw

14:23

and u just dont know how to install/find them

14:23

how is it that im perfectly fine on linux?

14:23

i always have problems on winshit

ye teeworlds doesnt have bugs u just need to know how to code a fix for them

will linux ever be able to emulate windows except without the "bad" ?

1

i wanna know if i can implement this on ddnet https://unixism.net/loti/index.html

14:24

a good linux-only feature for ddnet

linux is good cus u can do so much customization without it being hidden under 500 ui-friendly useless "troubleshooters" but its so annoying cuz 50% of the stuff u expect to work requires like 50 commands

Im 'corneum

will linux ever be able to emulate windows except without the "bad" ?

linux has it hard because companies don't want to make drivers like they do on windows, so linux relies mostly on people reverse engineering the windows drivers to know how it works and implement it on linux

14:25

windows has positive feedback loop

14:25

more users

14:25

=

14:25

better drivers

14:25

=

14:25

more company interest

14:25

= better drivers

yeah i get that windows has many downsides but they are not so bad that i want to learn how to use linux.

honestly, if u all u do is search the browser and play ddnet you can do it on linux and don't really need to know much

would be epic if one day you can just switch with the upsides of both systems

your biggest barrier is probably installing linux on your machine

14:27

another downside, since most computers come with windows installed

i think installing linux is easy

14:27

but getting ur setup how u want it is harder

is linux big? why not install both

even installing windows is hard for ur average joe

14:27

they know shit

14:27

but they donth ave to install windows

14:27

since it comes preinstalled

Im 'corneum

is linux big? why not install both

linux is way smaller in size than windows

14:28

windows takes 100gb typically

ya u can dual boot linux

ubuntu e.g needs just 8gb

14:28

and you are done

but idk why u would do that

i do that

Ryozuki

ubuntu e.g needs just 8gb

ye u forgot the other 92 gb of drivers that dont come installed

still too much to preinstall both on retail pcs

@louis ur real dumb mman

14:28

thats not 92gb of drivers

kek

its 92gb of telemetry

ya ik its joke

14:29

but u cant compare 8gb vs 100gb its more like 20gb vs 100gb

14:29

if u want the same stuff

14:29

20gb is an estimate idk what i'm talking about

no

14:29

its 8gb

14:29

with arch its even elss

14:29

less

i never really tried a userfriendly linux, but i guess it always has the potential to be better than windows, someone just needs to get a easy gui) i installed ubuntu for a person(that really isnt good with computers), just told him how to open browser and telegramm, and he can use it

Image attachment

yeah but windows comes with preinstalled stuff that you usually install

Image attachment

14:30

arch is 2gb

like the first thing i did on linux was install a bunch of crap that doesn't come with it

because installing stuff on linux is way too easy

justatest

1

14:30

and u can update everything in 1 command

14:30

u dont have to go through installers

ye the thing i dont like is theres 50 different ways to install one thing

i can literally make a script to replicate my setup on a new computer

14:31

and i can have it done after taking my coffee watching someting on the tv

i can literaly see myself accidentaly delete everything if i ever use linux

Eh depends on the linux you are using but my gentoo installation is way below 20G out of the box with all drivers and essential programs, while a w7 installation is around 90G with all the patches. W10 is nicer at around 30G

best plus for linux is: it performs better i get more fps in emulators and ddnet

at least windows knows im dumb greenthing

greenthing

all i need to survive xd

yeah

14:32

if triple A games were available on linux natively

Ubuntu is the linux for dum ppl. So if you want to give it a try try that

i would uninstall windows asap

It protects you from yourself pretty well

i google "how install <insert program here>" and theres some nerd on stackexchange telling me to compile 50 zips and change 20 system commands to install it when i could just do sudo apt-install program

and im sure AAA games on linux would outperform the windows ones

Ryozuki

and im sure AAA games on linux would outperform the windows ones

Some do even under proton, which surprised me aaaalot

i think i used ubuntu once... all i remember is i click teeworlds pictrure but teeworlds dont start :((

louis

i google "how install <insert program here>" and theres some nerd on stackexchange telling me to compile 50 zips and change 20 system commands to install it when i could just do sudo apt-install program

there is always a graphical version of the package manager

louis

i google "how install <insert program here>" and theres some nerd on stackexchange telling me to compile 50 zips and change 20 system commands to install it when i could just do sudo apt-install program

haha yeah, u really need to use ubuntus package installer then, its relativly easy to use

and u can search stuff there

14:33

but honestly

well im on zorin

idk why windows users are scared of the terminal

14:33

its the real usage of a pc

Im 'corneum

i think i used ubuntu once... all i remember is i click teeworlds pictrure but teeworlds dont start :((

If it was 10 years ago, I see I had the same experience. But gnome is fairly streamlined now

the software store on zorin is outdated or smth

it gives u power

could be 10 years ago.

Ryozuki

idk why windows users are scared of the terminal

i think its just uniniuitive to work with text

Ryozuki

its the real usage of a pc

For us, maybe, for users its kind of a shit ux ngl

well i can see why they would be scared of POWERSHELL BECAUSE IT SUCKS

14:34

Get-CMD HAYSDHBASUYFDIASTYUVFYTUDSAB

14:34

ugly af

The reason this kind of gui took off is because its extremely pretty and easy to use

but be honest, did you ever use a terminal in your first OS?

14:35

i came accross it when i first installed like a minecraft server or smth xD

I think the first time I encountered it was working with network problems

https://pop.system76.com/

Pop!_OS by System76

Imagine an OS for the software developer, maker and computer science professional who uses their computer as a tool to discover and create. Welcome to Pop!_OS.

14:35

become a gamer

ipconfig /all

gonna make louisOS

use templeos

14:36

tbh templeos > linsux

yea

If any of you are looking to give linux a go, it's really in its prime time now. Excellent support for games, pretty uis, out of the box drivers

14:37

The first freebsd install I had took me 12 hours trying to compile an experimental driver for my gpu

maybe when i have better internet bcs i cant see myslef redownload 100 games at once

Yeah, that's a pain indeed

linux for gaming argument doesnt make sense

14:38

but i can see why ud install it for performance

14:38

well im on it right now cause its a laptop i use for school

my dad switched bcs his laptop got slow and he got like 5 more years out of it... not much of a gamer tho

louis

linux for gaming argument doesnt make sense

Why not? It's already better in every other aspect and now it can game just as well as windows

14:39

The only thing is that we dont get day0 drivers

not in my experience tbh

louis

linux for gaming argument doesnt make sense

why do u think linux doesnt work for gaming

14:39

linux outperforms windows

never said it doesnt work i just think windows is better

14:39

u dont have to install separate programs to run them

louis

not in my experience tbh

But when was your experience? Proton is like last 3 years

"separate programs "

so when i have linux all set up with all drivers and whatever. i can go to steam and play every game like normal?

???

14:40

when i install windows i install firefox

Steam with proton runs any game just fine for the last year or teo

and i have to go through the installer

14:40

idk what that means

Im 'corneum

so when i have linux all set up with all drivers and whatever. i can go to steam and play every game like normal?

Yes

well not all my games are on steam

and it emulates windows so i dont need to look out for linux versions specificly?

Im 'corneum

and it emulates windows so i dont need to look out for linux versions specificly?

Yes

cool

It has a translator for directx that goes directly to vulkan and it sometimes even outperforms directx because dx9 is ancient

14:41

I even got aoe2 working out of the box, aoe2 is as old as me nearly

14:42

Dark Souls 3 siO says he gets better performance on linux with proton than on windows

14:42

I'll test a new kernel soon with some filesystem patches that makes proton blazing fast with loading

welp i havent tested many games but in a lot of cases windows outperformed for me

14:43

maybe i have the wrong settings but

(Supposed to be faster than windows because windows does some very weird io stuff with exclusive access)

louis

welp i havent tested many games but in a lot of cases windows outperformed for me

As I said when did you test?

idk year ago or a bit more

14:44

oh funny story i tried teeworlds and got like 5x fps but that was just cause i had viruses on my old windows setup xd

new games should all use vulkan and then they will have 0 excuse for making a linux version

These are very very recent developments but even a year ago I had proton running at a very decent fps. Though I have a beast of a gpu, so I already get way more than enough frames

14:45

Maybe weaker computers do struggle

Valve likes Linux btw

14:45

valve best

they should make games

Ye wtf valve. Portal 3 quicc

i would kill for portal3

this is all the games that i can play on linux

Image attachment

14:45

of my total on steam

The only reason I keep windows around is VR

521 games

VR sadly is shit on linux

Ryozuki

521 games

Fwiw you can play much more if you allow untested titles too. Sometimes I need to go in with protontricks and add an extra package or too but it runs almost anything now

@Learath2

Image attachment

14:47

its already like this bro

14:47

i can play 521 out of 687

14:47

its p good

Huh, why not all 687?

oh

14:47

hmm

14:48

oh new proton versions

are that only the games that run on proton?

should i switch to proton 6

e.g. are native games in that list?

well i only play teeworlds so its not like it matters. but DAWs on linux were surprisingly lacking which is why i switched back

I wish oculus cared about linux :k

14:48

DAW? That's one acronym I'm not familiar with

Image attachment

14:48

i guess cuz this

14:48

?

14:49

xd

Yeah looks like it

digital audio workstation

Ah. That linux lacks in indeed

I can't play The Talos Principle on linux

15:16

but I'd really like to

15:16

it works for other people

the native version

15:17

?

apparently the native version

u can force proton

15:19

then it downloads the windows version

I'll try. thanks for the idea

@heinrich5991 tried debugging?

a bit

I had a permission issue with a game of mine

like reading the logs and googling error messages

15:20

I didn't literally use a debugger

mesa21 fixes alot of stuff, if its gpu related xd

Image attachment

oh rip

pressing cancel seems to work

15:24

hm

if it uses dxvk, you could still try PROTON_USE_WINED3D11=1 when starting steam but if it works, nice xd

hm, changing to fullscreen doesn't work, neither via window manager nor via ingame menu

15:25

both crash the game (edited)

15:28

ah, now that I changed it via the ingame menu, I can't start the game anymore, I guess I'll dig in some config files ^^

Ryozuki

also anyone can finish with your name, that already makes ur rank not have "any" sense right?

Yes, i'm totally agree with it, that's why i don't like when players change their names to give finishes to players who doesn't even died in the run. I play legally for points, and there are more people that play like that. But now I present you a real situation of a gameplay, in which there'es only 1 tee alive, and need to do a hard part. The most strategic thing would be /swap with the most pro player of the team, but would it be the correct desition? would it be the correct desition to /swap in every hard part?? The argument of timeout and save swaps needs to be carefully analyzed, because I ask you, how many save/timeout swaps you do in a regular gameplay? Maybe 1 in 20 gameplays, but now with /swap it will happen like 3 times per gameplay. I think you are whatching it from a point of view of what can i player do from before or not, but not from what gameplay impact it will have.

Learath2

Swap as it is right now is really supposed to be a drop in replacement for the save/load swap being only a little more convenient. At the end of the day we have no way of preventing save/load swaps so removing swap doesnt change anything

It actually changes a lot ↑↑

@Deleted User thanks, that fixed it ❤️

15:39

I got a steam playtime of 3.6 hours, now my first actual minute begins

sorgaxD

Yes, i'm totally agree with it, that's why i don't like when players change their names to give finishes to players who doesn't even died in the run. I play legally for points, and there are more people that play like that. But now I present you a real situation of a gameplay, in which there'es only 1 tee alive, and need to do a hard part. The most strategic thing would be /swap with the most pro player of the team, but would it be the correct desition? would it be the correct desition to /swap in every hard part?? The argument of timeout and save swaps needs to be carefully analyzed, because I ask you, how many save/timeout swaps you do in a regular gameplay? Maybe 1 in 20 gameplays, but now with /swap it will happen like 3 times per gameplay. I think you are whatching it from a point of view of what can i player do from before or not, but not from what gameplay impact it will have.

I mean in the two weeks since its release only a handful ever used it, mostly to cheat or try cheat

Learath2

I mean in the two weeks since its release only a handful ever used it, mostly to cheat or try cheat

most people don't know some really new features, i still find people that didn't know /practice exist xD

15:48

others may not be used to it, and others may be against it.

Image attachment

1

If you do a command, and don't limit its use, you must be prepared to people abusing it, not expect that in the best of cases it will be "little used"

Image attachment

15:57

https://youtu.be/rtwC3ZjoGRA?t=155 how it should look like

The Talos Principle - First Impressions: Science, Faith & Bombastic...

15:58

I tried lowering the graphics settings and using vulkan instead of d3d11

15:58

ideas?

mhh, the wine renderer is a bit buggy xD

15:58

did u use the env flag?

15:58

or does it run on dxvk

yes, without the env flag it didn't work

yeah, sadly i have minor issues with dx9 games too without dxvk

15:59

guess you can only try to upgrade the vulkan driver and hope its just some missing vulkan extension or smth that was blocking it from working with dxvk

16:01

or maybe the native even works then

omg, now hte native executable works

16:05

then lets hope its not outdated xD

hte

sorgaxD

If you do a command, and don't limit its use, you must be prepared to people abusing it, not expect that in the best of cases it will be "little used"

You need to look at the /swap command with a wider perspective. Obviously it wont affect you as much. You will get players who want to try something new, different and more challenging. Swap is convenient and would still allow them to try parts, learn from more complex parts and overall make them a better player. Any feature you implement will always have attempted abuse, cant pin that on 1 feature that sorts positive change and better player experience.

Image attachment

17:19

By the sounds of it, what you need is Accounts. Not removing the /swap feature.

Hello ! I have warnings about textures not divisible by 8 or 4 when I start DDNet Where can i find them to get rid of those warnings?

fix/delete the files

17:27

theres also a command to ignore them

17:27

i think its dbg_gfx 0? idk

its removed

@louis I don't know where are those files and dbg_gfx 0 doesn't remove the warnings

Teeson

@louis I don't know where are those files and dbg_gfx 0 doesn't remove the warnings

the warning tells you the name of the file

17:35

i hope you know where you installed random files from the internet xd

17:36

usually you put them into the skin directory that is accessable from the tee settings menu inside the client

Ok, I found them, thank you @Deleted User !

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #3767 Center more tees

hud score
kill messages
vote menu
player list (ingame menu)

old: !screenshot_2021-04-09_20-13-36 new: !screenshot_2021-04-09_20-13-31 there would still be in the HUD settings and the emote wheel. Guess both dont matter too much, emote wheel is not inside a box and h...

yo deen i have some trouble getting https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-live to run. Do you mind giving some support? What os were you on? Any display manager or window server you recommend using?

ddnet/ddnet-live

Live Streaming Infrastructure. Contribute to ddnet/ddnet-live development by creating an account on GitHub.

18:33

./run.sh give me currently these errors https://paste.zillyhuhn.com/zW

arch linux, X11, no window manager

20:28

i think

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

7c992e2 Center more tees - Jupeyy a503251 Merge #3767 - bors[bot]

@Learath2 https://twitter.com/zeuxcg/status/1359889570397999106?

Arseny Kapoulkine (@zeuxcg)

Rust 1.50 is out and has f32.clamp. I had extremely low expectations for performance based on C++ experience but as usual Rust proves to be "C++ done right". Of course Zig already has clamp and also gets codegen right.

Likes

163

21:42

https://secret.club/2021/04/09/std-clamp.html

A look at LLVM - comparing clamp implementations

Please note that this is not an endorsement or criticism of either of these languages. It’s simply something I found interesting with how LLVM handles code generation between the two. This is an implementation quirk, not a language issue.

21:42

BASED

21:43

"Rust’s code generation on the latest version of LLVM is far superior compared to an equivalent Clang version using std::clamp, even though they use the same underlying IR"

21:43

PepeA

huh, how did they get clamp so weird in c++ even wtf

apparently llvm failed to see through pointers in the optimization(?)

heh, glad to see zig gets it right though

ah, I see what you mean with the pointer thing

22:52

goes to show llvm still has much to learn

Exported 300 message(s)