DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2021-02-21 00:00:00Z and 2021-02-22 00:00:00Z

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

bab7e9e A Sincera 2 - ddnet-maps

[ddnet-web:master] 1 new commit

5718bb9 Add donation by Đϻτεε - def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #3635 Update russian translation

Checklist

[ ] Tested the change ingame
[ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
[ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
[ ] Written a unit test if it works standalone, system.c especially
[ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
[ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
[ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSan or valgrind's memcheck](https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/#using-addresssanitize...

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

24be8d1 Update russian.txt - gerdoe-jr c48bd41 Merge #3635 - bors[bot]

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #3636 Fix scoreboard overlapping

Dunno if its ok, i increased the scoreboard a bit, bcs its already pretty tight and i didnt want to decrease the space for name/clan old: !screenshot_2021-02-21_12-35-51 new: !screenshot_2021-02-21_12-35-55 new with way too long names(clamps them as expected): ![screenshot_202...

[ddnet/ddnet-data-svg] Pull request opened: #21 Add dino redrawn by mind

12:48

[ddnet/ddnet-data-svg] Pull request closed: #21 Add dino redrawn by mind

12:48

[ddnet-data-svg:main] 2 new commits

bf57608 dino redrawn by mind - Jupeyy f57c04f Merge pull request #21 from Jupeyy/pr_dino_by_mind - Jupeyy

I want it to be the future

Too complicated to be the future

it's gotten better

14:00

I don't know how it works but it mostly does

14:00

Sometimes it asks me for a passphrase and I don't know which one exactly I think there is a masterpass and a keyfile and other crypto things or something but I mostly ignore it and it just works

14:01

So yes it's complicated but you can mostly ignore the weird crypto things it wants from you and it will somehow keep working

The concept is too hard for the layman to grasp. It can only be the future if they could hide all the aspects of it that make it pleasing to us computerppl. The average user of chat applications only care that their cat pictures get from A to B and the UI looks sleek

14:03

When you start to tell them about decentralization and crypto and privacy it gets scary

14:04

Even more scary for people that have half-assed knowledge. My math teacher told me people that contribute to privacy oriented projects or use them are completely immoral as it facilitates terrorism and drug trafficking

The government needs to advertise for decentralization and crypto like they did against smoking and people will do what their told

14:05

they're*

Sure but why would they? It’s actually bad for them as they are in the business of controlling people. If people communicate on decentralized networks in an encrypted way how are they supposed to control the narrative?

TV? xDDD

14:06

Nah you're right

If it happens anywhere it’ll be the EU tho. It’s the most citizen oriented organization of politics so far

Let the pirate party take over

‍

️

"Citizen oriented" may be the most loaded term I've ever heard. Especially when different citizens want different things :)

Like how US presidents from both sides always say they are "for the people" when they only represent the interests of ~50% of Americans every 4 years. The bigger the organization, the bigger this problem becomes. This is an argument for small groups governing themselves with their own liberties and responsibilities, aka libertarianism. This line of thinking is not in line with the EU, although being part of the EU does have some nifty benefits. Big government bad, almost as bad as weak hook.

So a political organization can be “citizen oriented” if it tries to satisfy most of the people. It’s not very loaded, it’s just hiding away the concept of democracy.

15:12

Big government bad is the most neo-lib thing I’ve heard in a decade. Are you going to start quoting thatcher or reagan soon?

Alienating a large portion of your constituents is how you get riots. The larger the group the more dangerous. At least that's what we saw in the last year in the US.

Chopping your population into smaller and smaller blocks until you are left with family units is also not sane

15:16

Government is a compromise, we all find a way to live together in a way that satisfies the most of us. The US satisfies 1% of it’s population and is baffled when 90% of it riots

True

Under the guise of pleasing 50% governments get elected and they start feeding their wall street overlords while giving just enough anesthesia to the 50% that they don’t notice that they aren’t doing anything they promised on elections

15:18

I would define that as “not citizen oriented”

15:19

The federated structure of the EU is exactly to overcome the issues you envision btw. If there isn’t an objective truth in some matter member states are completely free to regulate as their citizens want

I like how the EU nations spend a decent portion of their taxpayer pot into healthcare and education, whereas in the US I give almost 50% of my income to taxes, and the only thing I get is a $1 trillion military every year to kill Palestinian kids, while I pay for my own healthcare and my own education. That's why we all hate the government in USA.

But is the solution really less government?

Since neither party in US is willing to slash military spending, the only solution is to downsize (I think)

Sure that will drop the absolute amount of money you spend on bombing yemen but it doesn’t get you any healthcare. California as it is right now has overwhelming support for healthcare, yet there is no state attempt to have a single payer healthcare system in California

15:24

(As far as I’m aware there is nothing a state can do that isn’t regulated by the federal govt, so they could indeed do it if they want to)

15:26

.s/can/can’t/

California doesn't have enough money to get water to its citizens. Too many people and too much infrastructure to support. This seems to be the problem is all big cities in the US. You can't fix a densely populated area without insane spending.

15:27

There is a mass exodus in the US away from big cities right now for these reasons

15:27

Moving out of the big cities yields higher quality of life and a higher income to cost of living ratio

Well most if not all states operate at a budget deficit, no? I think without the federal govt most would go bust

The federal government operates on trillions of dollars of added deficit each year

15:28

It is not sustainable, and it is not a solution

Well who is going to make the US pay, if we are being honest

Nobody as long as we keep up our military :) it's terrible

As long as you have world dominance you’ll be fine printing all the money you want and literally deleting debt ;P

15:30

Tbf the entire world suffers from this issue tho. Currency isn’t really backed by anything but the US dollar around most of the world

15:31

It’s more of an a measure of how much US dollar a country has in it’s treasury + an arbitrary measure of how trustworthy they are

But I am young, naiive, and anti-war. When I'm old and bitter I may find that the only way to get a large nation to cooperate is by implementing a shared belief system with expensive and restrictive policies. People love religion, big government, and high taxes because it's the only way to ensure large groups cooperate. (edited)

15:32

Code of hammurabi is proof that it works.

I feel the bigger issue in the US is that busted “democracy” that only gives you two “choices” both keen on not serving the people

15:33

If the money went to the right places more people would be okay with the government. Might even want more of the good governence

We nearly broke that cycle recently. Socialist party nearly got elected (which may have been a good change) with Bernie printing money to fix the country. But then you are still borrowing money from the future generation aka a non-solution. I like your point about the myth of money though. Since its value is only based on what you trust others will value it, it really doesn't matter what you do as far as spending...

15:36

If a radical politician made a big change that had positive impacts, citizens would see through the two party system

(I think it’s an awful idea that is bound to blow up in all our faces btw)

15:36

That is the money thing

YupHio

If a radical politician made a big change that had positive impacts, citizens would see through the two party system

Change usually starts from the bottom, I guess it’s just that enough people aren’t pissed off that they only get two shitty choices yet

It still seems clear as day to me that if the US spendy a little less on military, then we would have free healthcare and free education. Everyone in the world needs healthcare and education, that's obvious. The only risk (fear, thanks Russian arms race) is that if we cut military spending at all then we will be invaded lol

As far as I know from what I’ve read the US’s current healthcare spending is enough to establish a single payer healthcare system, so you might even get to keep the massive military

YupHio

I like how the EU nations spend a decent portion of their taxpayer pot into healthcare and education, whereas in the US I give almost 50% of my income to taxes, and the only thing I get is a $1 trillion military every year to kill Palestinian kids, while I pay for my own healthcare and my own education. That's why we all hate the government in USA.

i find it funny how muricans shit on nasa "fix earth issues first" when nasa gets only 1% of the federal budget, while the military gets trilions

Ryozuki

i find it funny how muricans shit on nasa "fix earth issues first" when nasa gets only 1% of the federal budget, while the military gets trilions

Tbf NASA’s federal budget is like the entire gdp of a couple countries ;D

they are always twitter people with a football related profile picture

15:40

tho

The other argument is to deregulate and de-mystify the US healthcare system (libertarian approach). Currently you cannot shop around for healthcare, you can't even get a quote for what a procedure or medicine will cost. The federal government granting patents causes a monopoly where insulin costs pennies to make and gets sold for hundreds of dollars.

We outsiders sort of underestimate the absolute MASSIVE size of the US and the insane size of their budget

Learath2

Tbf NASA’s federal budget is like the entire gdp of a couple countries ;D

nasa budget is like cents for usa

I love NASA, as I work in aerospace. I wish it had more funding lol

@YupHio huh, thought you could get itemized bills but it’s extremely padded because insurance companies only cover a fraction

You can ask for an itemized bill, and often that will save you thousands of dollars. But you cannot shop around before the fact often

It’s extremely deregulated right now imo with no one regulating prices except the free market

15:43

You couldn’t sell insulin for a 100$ anywhere else around the world even if it cost you that much to produce because it’s illegal almost everywhere

I see it the opposite way. The federal government only allows one person to sell the drugs, so there is no competition

15:43

But both sides add up to a monopoly that fucks the healthcare patients

Hm, patents. Yeah those are nasty, they need some kind of reform to stop companies from adding small insignificant things and repatenting drugs

well americans thinking our healthcare system (most europe countries) is equal to communism

Either the government needs to allow competitive prices from multiple sellers, or the government needs to set a mark-up limit for healthcare expenses

15:45

Either would work well I think

Ryozuki

well americans thinking our healthcare system (most europe countries) is equal to communism

What is funny about that is european healthcare systems do really range from socialist to very close to what one could define as communism

15:45

Look at france where they spend an absolutely insane amount of taxes for healthcare vs italy where it’s a relatively small portion

The other problem in US is that health insurance companies are one of the biggest and most powerful political organisations. Health insurance is trillions of dollars and they basically run the show. This is a cycle as when they raise prices they get more money in the system and more power

YupHio

Either the government needs to allow competitive prices from multiple sellers, or the government needs to set a mark-up limit for healthcare expenses

Is there really someone holding a patent to insulin btw? I thought patents expire sooner or later, aren’t there generic versions on the market yet?

I think patents last around 20 years or something depending on what type. You are right about "new" patents that are basically just the old product with a small change.

15:49

When a company can sell insulin for $100 for so long, it becomes the market value

YupHio

The other problem in US is that health insurance companies are one of the biggest and most powerful political organisations. Health insurance is trillions of dollars and they basically run the show. This is a cycle as when they raise prices they get more money in the system and more power

They with their trillions of dollars also run the politics of this issue btw. The supreme court decision that equates corporations to people in the eyes of the first amendment is literally a travesty of law. How could bribery be legalized it’s like one of the oldest crimes

15:49

What people in other parts of the world would call corruption and degeneracy the US govt calls lobbying and legalizes it. Wtf

Corporate collusion is inevitable when you are talking about trillions of dollars. There is no getting around that. You just have to know it's there and work with it I guess

Is it? In most countries politicians do protect massive industries even without getting bribes on the side

15:51

Tho I guess money talks everywhere, at the end of the day everyone wants to get rich

Same argument goes to big industries like tobacco and milk. You know it illegal to advertise products in public schools? In the US it is illegal to advertise every product except milk, because the dairy industry is so big that it lobbied the government to brainwash kids lol. Ridiculous.

15:52

You show up to public school as a 5 year old in USA and there are milk advertisements on all the walls.

Tobacco and Alcohol are like one of the strongest lobbies everywhere. There is no way you could even be able to sell any product with half the harms of tobacco and alcohol

america healthcare sux

YupHio

You show up to public school as a 5 year old in USA and there are milk advertisements on all the walls.

Like branded ads?

The alcohol industry in america is very good since prohibition. They self-regulate things such as never showing alcohol consumption in an ads (oddly enough) because they "don't want to promote drinking" but yeah you can't stop alcohol and tobacco industry

In turkey only the government is allowed to advertise in any school, not just public ones. And they usually run “ads” encouraging people to do sports or drink milk etc.

Yes, whatever brand of milk the school has a contract with. I think my school was "Dairygold" branded milk

I’m guessing you are not talking about this kind of ad tho

The milk thing in USA is out of control

YupHio

Yes, whatever brand of milk the school has a contract with. I think my school was "Dairygold" branded milk

Wow, literal corporate brainwashing from age 5 ;D

Like really, ads on every wall in public school lol

Huh, that’s one I hadn’t heard before

15:56

One consequence of the ad ban in schools in turkey is that billboards close to schools are extremely valuable

Most people don't notice because we grown up with it here. But if you take an objective look at it, it is very strange

On the topic of education, I have a wish that one day every countries curriculum would properly teach about how politics and government works

What if they were advertising tobacco in public schools? People would lose their minds. The problem is that most people think milk is relatively harmless I think. The science of environmental impact and dairy farming would beg to differ, but that's too much thinking

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

05dfc51 Fix scoreboard overlapping - Jupeyy a1fb94c Merge #3636 - bors[bot]

15:58

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #3636 Fix scoreboard overlapping

YupHio

What if they were advertising tobacco in public schools? People would lose their minds. The problem is that most people think milk is relatively harmless I think. The science of environmental impact and dairy farming would beg to differ, but that's too much thinking

I guess the rationalization people have is the age old fact(myth?) that dairy is good for growing children

I think education is the foundational solution to most problems in our society. I think both sides completely agree with that. Now I can't understand how the US education system is still so terrible.

Haven’t really read into that so no idea

YupHio

I think education is the foundational solution to most problems in our society. I think both sides completely agree with that. Now I can't understand how the US education system is still so terrible.

I have a theory, educated people are not easy to control. Governments like control

I'm sure many people in this chat have experienced: easiest way to get a high paying job in USA is to get a college degree. Most places to get a college degree you have to go into bad debt. Then you get a high paying job, and spend 10+ years trying to pay off your debt and not really making more net income than you would have before. So it's like 15 years of bullshit until your college degree may have a net positive on your finances, while you absorb the opportunity cost when you are in school for years as well. Sounds enticing right?

16:03

That's a good theory. Slave theory.

YupHio

I'm sure many people in this chat have experienced: easiest way to get a high paying job in USA is to get a college degree. Most places to get a college degree you have to go into bad debt. Then you get a high paying job, and spend 10+ years trying to pay off your debt and not really making more net income than you would have before. So it's like 15 years of bullshit until your college degree may have a net positive on your finances, while you absorb the opportunity cost when you are in school for years as well. Sounds enticing right?

College in the US only seems profitable if you are able to get a scholarship

Certain degrees are profitable, but most degrees will not help you if you look at the long term cost vs benefit.

I have a theory about this too. Most people don’t actually belong in universities. They belong in technical schools but universities are sooooooo profitable to their owners so they open spots as bait

16:06

Technical/vocational schools should really increase all around the world. There is a need for a lot of capable/qualified people. There is no need for millions of academic-lites graduating from university-lites

The worst situation (and very common) is people with average grades going to college, from a middle-class family. Firstly, the income of your family should not determine how much aid a student gets, as many of them are independent. Secondly, middle-class families are the sweet spot where they get no aid, and their parents generally can't afford to pay tuition. So everyone eventually gets to the middle-class and stays there miserably lol.

These people end up with massive student loan debt and get out there with no hirable skills to speak of. I think it’s insane that so many people are forced to get uni degrees to have a chance at a job that pays a living wage

1

YupHio

The worst situation (and very common) is people with average grades going to college, from a middle-class family. Firstly, the income of your family should not determine how much aid a student gets, as many of them are independent. Secondly, middle-class families are the sweet spot where they get no aid, and their parents generally can't afford to pay tuition. So everyone eventually gets to the middle-class and stays there miserably lol.

Middle class almost always gets the shaft in almost every problem except maybe day to day life. You can check economic growth all around the world during the capitalism “miracle” and see how the poor people and the extremely rich benefitted insanely middle class had meh growth

I had a staff position at a university for a year. The way the budget worked was that you must spend all your budget by the end of the year, otherwise you get a budget cut the next year. So everything was designed to be as expensive and inefficient as possible. Most government work is like this in USA. It was very strange compared to corporate industry where it is all about cost savings and efficiency.

YupHio

I had a staff position at a university for a year. The way the budget worked was that you must spend all your budget by the end of the year, otherwise you get a budget cut the next year. So everything was designed to be as expensive and inefficient as possible. Most government work is like this in USA. It was very strange compared to corporate industry where it is all about cost savings and efficiency.

Funniest part is that the govt encourages this by cutting the budget. By their own hand they are forcing people to be as inefficient as possible to be able to keep their funding

I am currently a middle-class american, living the comfortable american dream. I have no real complaints, which is why nothing will change for my demographic. People living in relative comfort don't care to insight change

Yet you probably could be living much better or at the very least in a much more secure manner if the government cared more, no?

@Learath2 if u set sv_map_window low, it depends on the cpu how fast the download is?

@Deleted User the actual connection

16:15

With map window low the client has to request each and every chunk

ok, but isnt the server checking the request in some frequence?

16:16

like how long the CPU sleeps

Yes and no. Define care. I am pissed that I pay almost 50% of my income to the government, so I don't want any policy that raises taxes more. I am all for the government redirecting funds to actually help people, but that's not profitable for the corporations running the show. They care as much as anything, but not about the right things it seems

Deleted User

ok, but isnt the server checking the request in some frequence?

Uuuh, I would think w.r.t the connections propagation delay the cpu sleep is negligible

YupHio

Yes and no. Define care. I am pissed that I pay almost 50% of my income to the government, so I don't want any policy that raises taxes more. I am all for the government redirecting funds to actually help people, but that's not profitable for the corporations running the show. They care as much as anything, but not about the right things it seems

I meant as in if that 50% went to better things, like safety nets for everyone, healthcare, education etc

i just wonder if a very very slow CPU would struggle to make the same amount map chunks, than one with good CPU, at the same connection

If I am not willing to pay more taxes, and the government will not redirect funds towards healthcare and education, nothing will change. I blame big government bloat for its wastefulness, corporate collusion, and military spending. But you could blame whatever you want

lol why do u pay almost 50%

Deleted User

i just wonder if a very very slow CPU would struggle to make the same amount map chunks, than one with good CPU, at the same connection

With map window very small unless the cpu is like EXTREMELY slow I think the connection propagation delay still dominates

@louis making well over $100k and I do all my investments in a ROTH so I have to pay taxes on them now rather than when I retire

It could happen with a very busy cpu tho, if the scheduler knocks your process out and all cores are hogged

Couple years ago when I was making $50k and not investing much I didn't have such a sour taste for taxes

@Learath2 ok, then last question, do you think the opposite, an insanly fast CPU can cause the UDP packets to be not in order causing the packets to be dropped/ignored, or is our code designed to pack these chunks into one packet?

i guess it would be better to move conversation to #off-topic, you guys are staying in irc-bridge channel

are you planning on retiring early

Yes

nice

Everyone should be planning to retire early. Working all day for 40 years straight should not be the dream. Although working a little bit for your whole life sounds nice.

@Deleted User we pack as much as we can into one packet. One teeworlds ‘packet’ is packed with as many other chunks that fit, one thing I’m not sure about is whether msgflag vital guarantees order

I would like to "retire" quite early and then just teach one or two classes at a university or something until I die lol

Hm, no I’m sure an extremely fast cpu doesn’t matter either

16:23

It should all depend on the connection and the window size

Learath2

Technical/vocational schools should really increase all around the world. There is a need for a lot of capable/qualified people. There is no need for millions of academic-lites graduating from university-lites

this is the kind of thing im doing

16:23

i love how this dev channel always end up being a philosophical/politics channel

Ryozuki

i love how this dev channel always end up being a philosophical/politics channel

Sorry about this, I get bored of studying then I chat around to keep my mind off of the guilt

why sorry

16:24

i like it

Tomorrow we can do philosophy. I’m almost done with “Discourses” we could all discuss stoicism ;P

Ryozuki

i like it

It’s quite off-topic for the channel

but there is nothing else going on rn here anyway

its just strange that on the same VPS laws server struggles in ddnet fast download vs 0.7 ddnet fast download

There is a difference between the two algorithms

16:26

0.7 fast download doesn’t rely on the client at all

"virtue is the only good" for human beings, and those external things—such as health, wealth, and pleasure—are not good or bad in themselves (adiaphora), but have value as "material for virtue to act upon."

16:26

interesting xd

ok

16:26

but in the end, if the ping is similar, the connection should be similar shouldnt it?

The 0.6 one relies on the clients requests arriving in chunks aswell so it needs to handle requests still

i mean the client is two times my client

0.6 one creates two times the traffic ;P

yeah but on my VPS the map download is fast

16:27

almost same ping

16:28

or the download sucks hard xD

16:28

of the server

You get the same speed for 0.7 and ddnet fast download?

nah

16:28

i meant, my vps runs ddnet, and his too, same version, default configs

16:28

but his struggles at 30kb/s while mine is fast

16:28

so maybe its the download speed of the server

16:29

or something really strange

16:29

bcs his vps is much better than mine

With 0.7 does his server perform better?

yes

Packet loss absolutely kills the 0.6 version of fast download

in 0.7 the mapdownload is fast

Maybe high packet loss?

possibly

16:30

didnt check yet

You could try to wireshark it, @heinrich5991’s new dissector should show you how many resends are happening

16:30

If i recall correctly 0.6 version of fastdownload literally falls back to slow download if you drop a single packet

well small 200ms ping doesnt show anything atleast

16:31

ping is also very stable

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #3637 Remove fifo file on shutdown

Helps with the official servers.

Checklist

[x] Tested the change ingame
[ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
[ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
[ ] Written a unit test if it works standalone, system.c especially
[ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
[ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
[ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSan or valgrind's memcheck](https://github.com/ddnet/...

thanks for the help tho

This is worth debugging, I would add dbg msgs on the client and the server to check what is requested and what is sent as a start as that’s how I debugged the fast download when implementing it

16:32

If he wants to dig deeper that’s a good place to start

16:34

A cute upgrade to the teeworlds protocol would be the ability to send maps thru a tcp socket. It would be soooo pretty to be able to just splice the memory into the socket getting rid of the dozens of syscalls done

I think an interesting place to take this conversation is the cost of extending human life. It is easy to imagine that in a generation the life expectancy could be closer to 100 years. Then let's say on average (hypothetically) everyone will get a terrible cancer and need a $1 million treatment by the time they are 95 years old. That is a burden that no government could afford. Where do you draw the line between basic healthcare vs extending human life at unreasonable cost? More realistic scenario: Mr Big Mac McDonald's comes in at age 35 weighing 500 lbs. His diet has caused cardiac disease and now he needs a new heart transplant that will cost $100,000. Should the free healthcare system absorb that cost?

the thing is

16:36

does it really cost 100,000

16:36

or is it just corporate greed

16:36

:)

YupHio

I think an interesting place to take this conversation is the cost of extending human life. It is easy to imagine that in a generation the life expectancy could be closer to 100 years. Then let's say on average (hypothetically) everyone will get a terrible cancer and need a $1 million treatment by the time they are 95 years old. That is a burden that no government could afford. Where do you draw the line between basic healthcare vs extending human life at unreasonable cost? More realistic scenario: Mr Big Mac McDonald's comes in at age 35 weighing 500 lbs. His diet has caused cardiac disease and now he needs a new heart transplant that will cost $100,000. Should the free healthcare system absorb that cost?

I read about this quite a bit actually. I think I even watched a youtube video on this that explained it pretty well. But the key is that european governments are absolutely invested into you never becoming mr big mac

16:37

The sugar in drinks here are limited by law. Tobacco is taxed heavily by law. Governments have required budget spendings to build new gyms, advertise the benefits of sports.

@Learath2 https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020/10/15/breaking-news-the-government-will-raise-the-iva-on-sugary-drinks-from-10-to-21-per-cent/

Breaking News- The government will raise the IVA on sugary drinks f...

THE Government has confirmed today Thursday, October 15, that it will increase the IVA on sugary and sweetened beverages from 10 per cent to 21 per cent, with the aim of promoting healthier habits and lifestyles.

16:37

xd

Part of the reason healthcare is so expensive and profitable these days is because people are living much longer, and needing more medical care as they get older. The cost seems to rise exponentially. For example my grandma had two knee replacements, a hip replacement, cancer treatment, etc. You simply can't provide that to everyone for free because it's such a luxury and takes the time of many others

16:38

Lots of $$$$$$

Is that something a US citizen invested in the concept of freedom could accept, that I do not know. But if you get free healthcare, the government has a huge incentive to keep you healthy

Only rich old people can afford it. So is it ethical to let the poor old people die when we could extend their lives at great expense?

16:39

Even healthy old people need these things. When you get old enough you inevitably die or get crazy expensive medical procedures

YupHio

Part of the reason healthcare is so expensive and profitable these days is because people are living much longer, and needing more medical care as they get older. The cost seems to rise exponentially. For example my grandma had two knee replacements, a hip replacement, cancer treatment, etc. You simply can't provide that to everyone for free because it's such a luxury and takes the time of many others

Fwiw your healthcare really is overly expensive. My grandma had hip replacements at a completely unsubsidized private hospital in turkey and she didn't pay anything near what my research of hip replacement prices in the US seem to be

yteah usa healthcare is ridiculously expensive

16:40

its pure greed

Like 100€s a night in the cheapest rooms expensive hospitals in turkey have nowhere near the insane costs of us hospitals

i think americans have taken for granted that it being expensive is normal

I would imagine that a new human heart could easily be worth $100,000. Even without corporate greed.

I had surgery for what people say an ambulance ride for a broken leg would cost in the US

16:42

Organ transplants are a very different issue imo. An ethical beast of a question we could chat about for hours and not get anywhere

Results: A total of 21 patients undergoing a heart transplant were included. One year survival rate was 76%. Mean (standard deviation) of total cost (procedure costs + one year follow-up cost) was 59,349 (18,881) euros (range: 29,380-113,470 euros). Procedure mean cost was 41,724 (17,584) euros (70% of total costs) and one year follow up mean cost was 17,625 (10,096) euros (30% of total costs) per patient. When the initial episode (heart transplant procedure) was analyzed, main cost drivers were personnel costs euros 59% of all costs; mean: 24,795 (7,633) euros and treatment costs -20% of all costs; mean: 8,386 (7,250) euros.

16:43

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16750126/

[Cost analysis of cardiac transplantation in a Spanish hospital] - ...

Costs of heart transplant in Barcelona (Spain) are similar to those published for other European Union countries, and well below the costs related to the procedure in the United States.

Yeah ambulance rides are insane here. Even though the whole fire department including ambulances is paid for entirely with tax dollars lol

Conclusions: Costs of heart transplant in Barcelona (Spain) are similar to those published for other European Union countries, and well below the costs related to the procedure in the United States.

Damn that's expensive @Ryozuki I can't imagine what it costs in USA lol

the conclusion

Ambulances being not free is the silliest thing, why would anyone think it would be abused lol

i hear muricans pay like 5k

16:44

for ambulance

I have never heard of anyone in any country abuse an ambulance as a taxi

just take a taxi 4head

I have a friend living in the US who took an uber after breaking his leg

Learath2

I had surgery for what people say an ambulance ride for a broken leg would cost in the US

My source for this story. Tho I guess since he never took the ambulance he wouldnt possibly know how much it actually would have cost :P

@Learath2 you can get fined in germany if you needlessly call an ambulance

well obviously

16:58

to call a ambulance u have to call the emergency service

that wasn't always the case

or whathever it is called

hence it's not obvious

16:58

IMO

hmm i never heard it not being the case

16:58

here

16:58

tho i guess it can be not obvious if a call was needed or not sometimes

New RUS BLOCKER server is laggin AF

ok, good to know

18:25

old one was better?

18:25

and lags for everyone or just you?

deen

and lags for everyone or just you?

I've got 2 confirmations on it

18:27

It has sudden freezes for like couple tenth of seconds

18:28

But it's for block to be unplayable

meh, so new hoster is shit too

deen

meh, so new hoster is shit too

What is the new one? And what was before (edited)

I have opened a ticket at the hoster about this problem

18:33

new is https://firstvds.ru , old was https://www.ihor.ru/

Айхор хостинг

Айхор - VDS хостинг на SSD дисках, виртуализация KVM, безлимитный трафик, аренда выделенных серверов, PHP хостинг, Bitrix хостинг, поиск и покупка доменов, SSL сертификаты.

Аренда VDS или VPS сервера. | firstvds.ru

Заказ и покупка услуг хостинга VPS и VDS серверов в России и СНГ. Аренда серверов VPS или VDS, регистрация доменов и SSL сертификатов.

Oh, firstvds is supershit, but I also have experience with ihor like 5 years ago I had scandal with their's support after which I migrated all my services to Hetzner into europe

18:44

You can try Ukr hosters btw or somewhere in Finland

18:44

Good ping for CIS

18:45

Ok it's almost impossible to play on RUS Blocker now, everyone is hating in chat

18:45

Previous one wasn't that bad

18:46

firstvds is like 1 tire shitty scam hosting in russia

18:46

Ihor is a little bit better tho

18:46

You may try myarena.ru, it may be superior

18:47

ddos protected etc

@deen I almost can guarantee that https://www.myarena.ru/price.html is better than (firstvds + ihor) * 10 (edited)

MyArena.ru :: Аренда игровых серверов Сounter Strike 1.6, Counter-S...

Хостинг c защитой от DDoS атак

deen

new is https://firstvds.ru , old was https://www.ihor.ru/

no no no no firstvds sucks

Ok, thanks, will try myarena

deen

Ok, thanks, will try myarena

no pls

these are servers for schoolchildren

too late

Peepo_rot

22:47

will you transfer only the block server?

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