DDraceNetwork - developer

Make egytian servers there are alot of egyptian in the last moment

I think we had egyptian servers for a while but the hoster was bad

00:49

It's really hard to find good hosters in proximity to the middle east

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1

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04:53

bug (1 of 600 server)

f3 all server names should have louis in them

3

ddnet-maps

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

1edc4a2 A HighJump - ddnet-maps

def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #3449 Fix x of y servers

as reported by louis

Checklist

[ ] Tested the change ingame
[ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
[ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
[ ] Written a unit test if it works standalone, system.c especially
[ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
[ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
[ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSan or valgrind's memcheck](https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/#u...

plsplsplslol

f3 all server names should have louis in them

nouis*

also i thought that number was supposed to mean the amount of servers you see after sorting

08:24

isnt the percent next to refresh supposed to show how many total servers loaded

def-

[ddnet-web:master] 1 new commit

d9d26d1 Add donation by Axaris - def-

@deen could you promise that if I parse teehistorian for proved cheated rank you will delete all ranks for nicknames who proven cheated at least 2 ranks?

definitely not

I've met another player who said that he cheated some time ago and maybe still cheating, that gave me some motivation to work on parser, but if you will, as always, just delete their ranks

10:29

then it's useless work for me, what's the point

So if I have a cheating client and finish twice on some pros name all his ranks will be deleted? That sounds even worse.

you can raise the number of cheated ranks to purge all

I mean your argument just got fucked haha

10:30

I mean you can do a lot more even check the ips the name played on

2 seems definitely low, but I don´t think there is at least one cheater who finished like.. 10 times for someone else

Sure, there should be some punishment, like nameban or removing all ranks from a period. But I'm not the only person who gets to decide this, should be discussed with other admins too. And so I can't promise you anything.

so discuss it please

10:32

because this promise is the only thing that can give me enough motivation to do powerful parser

The decision will probably depend on the specific incident, it's hard to come up with a good ruleset for all possibilities

I've already told you how to catch some proven cases

10:33

it can't be captured if you're clear

10:33

once in a trillion times mb...

@snail @heinrich5991 @Learath2 @jao Thoughts?

Also I've tried to speedrun "Shooting Range" where 1st rank is 37 seconds. That's insane and I can't be even sure on ddnet if it's real or not

10:35

so would be cool if I knew that this rank is legit and this man is really insane

10:37

to be honest I wrote some simple program that tried to cheat that map and make every shot frame perfect, so I could see what's the perfect time here. It had some issues, but it almost finished at around 33-35 seconds. But it was frame-perfect (edited)

Deleting all ranks on a name because of a cheated rank is an insane proposition without accounts

@Дядя Женя Not sure about Shooting Range, but with Putt Putt we had a similar situation recently: I deleted his rank before because louis said it's probably cheated. So the player provided demo to me. He's actually just really pro at this and kept improving it many more times

So I hope he is just Korean (edited)

Oh, Shooting Range is Jamie

10:40

Yeah, he's pro. I used to play ictf against him ~13 years ago and his aim was incredible even back then

Learath2

Deleting all ranks on a name because of a cheated rank is an insane proposition without accounts

checking for few ranks, not only one

We already nameban people that cheat often

10:40

Like syltoox

we already had this discussion when we banned n9

He even managed to get a perma nameban because no one is willing to give him a 50th chance :D

and with my parser you could see a lot of proven cheated ranks you didn't see before

jao

we already had this discussion when we banned n9

for my opinion he must be in perma-ban right now. Namebanned at least, so he could just start again

We talked about parsing teehistorian a lot of times. No one even came up with an approach that can prove anything so I'm more interested in what you want to analyze

he is proven cheater and you just let him play, that was insane for me, I've even left ddnet for 1-2 years after I knew that

We can't keep people out anyway, we can just nameban them, but they can just play on a different name

We all came up with many heuristics which should give you suspicious runs, but proving a run is cheated is pretty much impossible barring the very obvious cheating

we have our reasons

re: we can't keep people out, just nameban them:

10:44

that's obviously still a harsh penalty probably no one wants to face

deen

We can't keep people out anyway, we can just nameban them, but they can just play on a different name

If we have accounts for a while and people start collecting points, there suddenly are actual consequences to getting banned

10:44

Though it is equivalent to namebans in some way

thats better than deleting legit ranks

namebans are an actual punishment. just see how namebanned people keep coming back asking for an unban

that affects everyone

10:45

not only the botter

best punishment is being publicly made fun of for botting

not sure @ Ravie

10:47

anyway, I'm out, watching rc3 :)

Nah assholes usually love being known as the asshole

@Дядя Женя Anyway, as you can see, it's hard to generalize. If you had a 100% way of finding some cheaters, that would still be great though

yeah but if a top player bots, he will never be trusted his ranks are legit again

Look at how they all race to claim ddos attacks. Or how actual killers tend to return to crime scenes

Ravie

yeah but if a top player bots, he will never be trusted his ranks are legit again

It's the thrill :P speedrun communities have a lot of these too. I guess they get off on being known as the best AND also taking risk

if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned

or not, that's the thing

@deen for now I'm thinking about some obvious cheating of course

10:50

where you can surely say it's cheated and what's the easiest to detect

10:50

harder things for later ofc

Ravie

yeah but if a top player bots, he will never be trusted his ranks are legit again

nameban N9 please

We did nameban him for a while iirc

nameban is awesome for top player cheaters

10:51

I know. Why unbanned?

Because punishments are for reform. We don't just execute petty thieves irl :D

10:52

We just don't want them stealing anymore

...

Дядя Женя

nameban is awesome for top player cheaters

you don't need any points to start doing r1 again

so delete all of ranks

10:52

let him collect his speedrun points again

10:53

so he have a chance to not cheat this time

If there is no reform, then we up the punishment. If it still doesn't work then we can talk about extreme measures

do you know he has a lot of cheated ranks still that you didn't delete?

and if you bot then I guess you already don't care about reputation, you can just get a new name

If you know of any, just let us know

def-

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #3450 Fix veto

We have to check the actual player too, not just its dummies.

Checklist

[ ] Tested the change ingame
[ ] Provided screenshots if it is a visual change
[ ] Tested in combination with possibly related configuration options
[ ] Written a unit test if it works standalone, system.c especially
[ ] Considered possible null pointers and out of bounds array indexing
[ ] Changed no physics that affect existing maps
[ ] Tested the change with [ASan+UBSan or valgrind's memche...

I'm just triggered on this thing

We keep an eye out on these peoples ranks

when you're like...

@Learath2 can you quickly review this please? I should deploy it

"Oh, he cheated. Ok, ok, my lovely cheater, play as always, we will look for your cheated ranks with all dev. team and if we will prove it's cheated we will just delete it without any punishment (kiss)(kiss)" (edited)

I know why you are triggered too. Ridiculously overkill punishments are so pleasurable. Like divine justice. God smiting them from the heavens

10:55

But don't forget that this is just a game. At the end of the day we just want everyone to enjoy

10:55

@deen on it

How could I feel comfortable in game when I know that you just let cheaters cheat

don't forget that because of one botter, other players enjoy the game less

if you can't prove their new rank is cheated

10:56

then I can just make my own cheats and cheat too. So you will look for my ranks and just clear half of them and waste your time on that

10:57

and normal players wouldn't be sure if it's human possible to get rank1 on this map or I cheated it and it's inhuman

We should provide demos of each top 1 rank using teehistorian

The ipad app for github really needs a way to see more context on reviews

10:58

I think there is no problem there, merging it

Дядя Женя

and normal players wouldn't be sure if it's human possible to get rank1 on this map or I cheated it and it's inhuman

with a replay bot it's humanly possible anyway, just with training wheels

deen

We should provide demos of each top 1 rank using teehistorian

that's a good way to keep the player's motivation to start speedrunning, but also it doesn't guarantee rank is not cheated

At least humans can then see some suspicious behaviour

and it has some disadvantages discussed earlier

yeah if you share the rank1s then teehistorian at least has some good use

@deen we really should be keeping a hashmap of ips on CServer so we don’t have to do this O(n^2) mess every time a vote is running

some maps would just lose it's point then like puzzle maps

if u wanna puzzle then dont watch it

good point. it's anyway on youtube

every other game has playthroughs and sdpeedruns available

ok. send us all top1 demos

11:00

and wait for cheaters claiming it loooool

@Learath2 not sure it's that expensive actually

just sad that there are some people who would look up the r1 strats and simply do it better, with raw skill and no brain (edited)

why not?

11:01

isn't the speedruns all about that?

11:01

doing as frame-perfect as possible

thats on them then but i can still lok at a map alone and find my own improvements

or discovering new way to cut down time

in tw it's also about coming up with new ways

and then its more glory for me when everyone sees my run

after one speedrunner discovers new way everyone can see it, that's how all games speedruns works

yea

@deen i think we should do it too

@deen atleast we only run it on a new vote or vote change. But still getting the ips for each player converting to strings doing string comparisons, not very cheap

@Ravie its a combination of both

11:03

as it is in every single game thats beeing speedrunned

if the new way is insane he get's the glory

usually the player on top is the one that mixes raw skill and brain/improvements the best

11:03

tbh on almost every game top runs are shared to the world and its never an issue, it just makes it even more competitive

11:04

because then good players can work from that run and add their ways to that top rune

11:04

run

of course it is

usually someone finds a crazy new strat and everyone else jumps on it

the way it is now. its just artificially retarding the process of becomming a better player. i see so many people asking for demos or searching for runs on youtube.

instead of everyone doing his own shit in secret

Ravie

usually someone finds a crazy new strat and everyone else jumps on it

and then good players will find small improvements to that strat

and in ddnet I'm just looking on rank1: "Oh, n9. Must be cheated, fuck it then" and quit trying

thats the essence of speedrunning

Hiding strats is quite frowned upon in speedrunning btw. That guy saving a glitch for the oot tournament a couple years ago got absolutely blasted for it

not just beating a r1 with a shitty run coz u found a secret way that cuts half of the map

its not even new to TW btw

almost all ddnet current ranks can be impoved by 15-50% if there were some insane players (edited)

lmao

if we would share the ways r1 does it then the time will be improved a little more

maybe solo would pick up again

11:05

right now its only n9

I guess it's still better than having botters

nameban n9

n9 is good deal with it

teerace used to share every player's demos and ghosts

11:06

it made it rly competitive tbh

ye n9 is rly good

I know he is playing good

and i never saw a top player complaining about that aspect

and i cant imagine the admins skip any of his speedruns

Anyway, we did want to provide demos for r1s and I personally wanted to add a ghost downloader so you can easily see your pace against r1. The very core issue here is to play back teehistorian files on the server, which is #2937, if anyone wants to work on it

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/2937

Teehistorian Replayer · Issue #2937 · ddnet/ddnet

I haven't really started yet, if someone wants to help tell me: Replay modus on server that opens a teehistorian file as inputs Should run faster than realtime, no sleeps, instantly go to n...

and i doubt he would risk it

but he cheated, so delete all his ranks, so he could make the new ones legit

@Learath2 for ghost I think you don't need a proper replayer, right?

I just hate how ddnet stuff covering cheater

11:07

not accepting his ban

you are mistaken

Again, we watched a lot of his ranks, deleted the cheated ones we found. If you find any others let us know

@Дядя Женя Deleting his ranks also means we have to delete team ranks of his partners, who might be innocent of any cheating.

does whole top5 get recorded or only r1?

We banned the guy, we keep an eye on any new ranks he makes. You can’t expect much more. If he gets caught again, he will get a longer nameban

@Ravie every movement you ever do on any official ddnet server gets recorded for eternity

@Ravie the entire server gets recorded all the time

Learath2

Again, we watched a lot of his ranks, deleted the cheated ones we found. If you find any others let us know

omg do you really think cheater deserves that much attention and my own time wasted?

https://ddnet.tw/players/N9mkOik-32--91-CHEAT-93-/

11:08

best player

he cheated and I must suffer

11:08

nice

I store 1 to 2 terabytes of ddnet ticks

11:09

@Дядя Женя no one asked for your time, we put in the time

o.o I don't want anyone to spy on me jumping around and not playing

you must suffer because you THINk he cheats

11:09

its on you entirely

@Ravie we consider movements to not be private data, so we didn't ask you for permission

Learath2

@Дядя Женя no one asked for your time, we put in the time

then go check all of his ranks and prove it wasn't cheated, can you?

chat and ip addresses are not recorded

well then at this point everybody cheats and no rank should be stored

yeah just kidding ofc

as a normal player I want to be sure that top ranks are not cheated and I can freely try to get in top10

u can never be sure of that

ur just envy of n9 being to pro

*in any game

11:10

lol

Chat I agree with but I kinda want to store ips longer. They are not private either and I think it might help us with some of the culprits

thats a rly stupid logic

11:10

we try our best to make sure it is

I can freely try to get in top10

u can with skill

but nothing is safe proof

@Ravie but I also argued that we could delete some runs to save space

bors[bot]

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

5a23bc1 Fix veto - def- 637db33 Merge #3450 - bors[bot]

11:10

bors[bot]

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #3450 Fix veto

@noby is having some good success with keeping ips and using them for more precise range bans

ur being paranoid

11:10

the botting issue is not even as close to what u picture it to be (edited)

@snail we don't really have data on that

Ryozuki

ur just envy of n9 being to pro

I don't care if someone is pro, I'm raging that you're just licking ass of cheater and not banning him, covering him and letting play with all previous ranks saved, when there are a lot of cheated for sure

Learath2

@noby is having some good success with keeping ips and using them for more precise range bans

tru

@heinrich5991 honestly any good player can get in almost any top5 in solo maps

We keep the most competitive leaderboards as clean as we possibly can

recently around 50 or how many? Ranks of him was deleted by @deen

"for sure"

@Дядя Женя i hereby delcare every one of your runs cheated. proove to me that they arent. good luck

haha

@snail we have probably only scratched the tip of the cheating issue

Almost any insane top5 gets checked within the day

git gud m8

@Дядя Женя tone down the language please

our investigation wasn't set up in a way to catch anyone but the most egregious cheaters

Well it wasn’t much of an investigation into cheating as a whole

I don't think there were only obvious botters, hence I don't think we caught all, thus I think your assertion "you're just paranoid" is uncalled for

We found a single bug and investigated that

@Дядя Женя n9 was proven guilty and has been punished for that, we then checkeed more recent ranks and didnt find anything. its not "guilty until proven innocent" if we decided the ban duration to be enough for him to play again on our servers

ehm, I meant the botting investigation we had a couple of years ago

Ah that one we just had a honeypot for one bot and the others we had to watch by hand so yeah, not really thorough. But since that I think almost all top5 ranks in insane and even some brutal maps gets some scrutiny

open teehistorian for everyone

def-

[ddnet-web:master] 1 new commit

13241cd Special New Year's Eve Event - def-

why would you even close it

we didn't close it, we just didn't open it (yet)

everyone could check for ranks they wanna see

At the moment the download of teehistorian files is through my home server, so it's a bit bandwidth-bound

oh

It’s almost 2 terabytes of data, it’s not just that we don’t want people to see it

upload it on torrent lol xD

Since a public server on internet with > 2 TB disk is not worth the cost

11:16

And no one can do anything with teehistorian files anyway, we need the tooling to get out demo/ghost

maybe if u can split it somehow and torrent it it might be a way

top10 ranks then?

I have it on a server but I’m right about running out of storage

can't you just host the top5? or is that already 2tb

Though compression helped a lot

top10

@Ravie sure, we can host them when they can be converted to demo/ghost

I’m glad heinrich5991 made the format compress so well

btw, you could consider using zstd (if you want at extreme compression levels), it has similar compression with xz (within 5% at extreme compression levels) but decompresses much faster

11:18

@Learath2

Anyway, we can indeed host it but there are a couple things we need to think about before opening it up. I was a bit concerned with privacy with the amount of data involved datamining could be dangerous

https://archlinux.org/news/now-using-zstandard-instead-of-xz-for-package-compression/

I already use zstd heinrich5991

nice!

if it doesnt have chat it should be fine

11:19

i think

it contains timeout codes, we'd need to strip those

I think so too but we need to look into it a bit more

with the amount of data involved

Oh no! Player's inputs

11:20

danger

Oh did we ever make teleport destinations pseudo random?

does it really contain timeout codes? I didn't see it

don't think so

@Дядя Женя this is a shortsighted comment. It does contain more than just inputs

I saw just player inputs and server settings

All the rcon commands need to be stripped out too

oh, the cmds ofc

Some server settings might need censoring, don’t know which settings get saved

11:22

Anyway, just exposing the raw archive hardly seems like an option to me

could the demos be attached to the message in #records? would be neat

If we do provide access to raw teehistorian files and not just demos, it would probably be on request basis. Like you click a button and it queues up the file to be stripped and cleaned up, then you get your file

should convert it to demo files first

I think we should be doing just demos

Im 'corneum

could the demos be attached to the message in #records? would be neat

could be videos attached, but it would need some cpu (edited)

Im 'corneum

could the demos be attached to the message in #records? would be neat

Ooh that would be super cool. Especially now that we have the recording stuff in the code it should be possible

11:24

It needs a smart-ish auto director to spectate tees though

can i tell my computer to always put .demo files in the dedicated folder?

no

bruh

I think

One more issue with conversion to demos is which tees to include. It’s actually a sort of involved problem

i mean when i download them from opera. bcs its always annoying to search for the folder

technically you could hook the process of GetFileDialog and set the start path on something... maybe... So it could be possible

Learath2

One more issue with conversion to demos is which tees to include. It’s actually a sort of involved problem

why not all of them

I think the simplest way would be to include everyone in view but then you get some people going out of view which makes the demos less nice to watch

@Im 'corneum it's more annoying to search in demo browser in tw xD

yeah that demo browser always confuses me

just record all the tees from your team

it has no searchbar so I manually scroll through 200 demos

Дядя Женя

why not all of them

Because well the teehistorian files are massive, we have 64p stronghold3 servers that ran for 2 days maybe. The demo for heinrich’s s2 run is like 10gigs

Learath2: yes, we save the random seed now

So it atleast needs to be chopped from run start to run end

let the top10 for now

11:27

other problem can be fixed later

But even then with all tees included these 64p demos might get really large

why all 64 omg

11:28

1. tees from your team 2. demo from start to finish

Maybe everyone you ever interact with for all the demo + everyone in view

11:28

People play in t0 most of the time

and get top10?

11:28

ok

when u store konsti being afk in a server forever, is the file as big as someone playing?

no

less movement should mean smaller file

11:29

(fewer inputs)

God talking to you makes me feel like an invertebrate. You really need to be more careful with your tone

yea but is it significant?

11:29

or can i just be afk from now on to troll you

It’s not like we are talking about 2+2 here these are all quite involved problems, not really just “omg do that”

You can stay afk with 100 tees for a few years and it's not too bad

o

11:30

k

I can't see any problems and you're trying to find them

We have average 1000 active players playing 24/7, a few afks don't matter

Anyway, these are all future problems, you should just do #2937

https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/2937

Teehistorian Replayer · Issue #2937 · ddnet/ddnet

I haven't really started yet, if someone wants to help tell me: Replay modus on server that opens a teehistorian file as inputs Should run faster than realtime, no sleeps, instantly go to n...

1. Get the run from start to finish 2. Take all tees from current team 3. Let people see only top10 runs for now

1

do you only store inputs and simulate them on a map or is the map and everything stored with it like on a demo

Without that none of these matter

could you hook in some freeze+ unfreeze so your tee keeps rehooking, or does that count as a single input?

@Im 'corneum only inputs, otherwise it would just be a demo

there can't be any problems with size. idk if run_antibuguse will even weight that much

Inputs and tee positions

11:32

@Ravie that’s just one hook down input iirc

how much size is the 3 hours run with 8 tees?

You’ll need to find someone with such a run and ask them how big the demo is

just allow it for solo servers for now?

don't worry about file isze

as we're always say in gamedev industry - make it work. Then do it better (edited)

Sure, again we want to do this. It requires work. None of us seem to have time for the work

pls chill ur edits its the 3rd time ur message got resend on irc bro

I wish we could disable edits on this channel

Is it resend on edit? Lol, ok, sry. Didn't know that

11:37

I though you don't get deletes and edits

Learath2

I wish we could disable edits on this channel

Just don't send it to IRC

it make sense so irc ppl will know what you've changed. but like don't do it too much i guess.

Why don't you use discord?

they doesn't like data collection maybe. there are reasons.

Just curious, sry if sounds rude, I'm just bad in English at this point

gtg life requiring attention, cya’ll later

take care my lord

i am banned on discord for not connecting my discord account to my phone number

since when do you need to do that

server owners can set if a phone number is require iirc.