DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2020-06-11 00:00:00Z and 2020-06-12 00:00:00Z

discovered a bug, not a major one cuz it only works kick command

send rcon so i can exploit bug

if i connect to a empty server i get ID 0 and when i connect my dummy it gets ID 1, when I kick him with command "kick 1" it disconnects the tee but my client still thinks my dummy is in the game, then when somebody connects and gets my dummy original ID which was 1 and that person gets tagged in msg, the msg will highlight for me

00:45

Image attachment

00:46

it can be easily recreated

@jao's hairy kebab

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

e58f683 A Van Gogh - ddnet-maps

Thoughts on making weak / strong hook map specific? (If possible) I believe weak hook degrades the quality of Teeworlds, newer players don't even know it exists, hell, even some people that have been playing for quite some time don't. Some maps require it, but why should it be forced to be a mechanic on all maps that don't?

05:04

It's almost an invisible mechanic, and it makes general gameplay feel tedious. The simple act of trying to toss a tee is affected by it. Newer players are greatly impacted by it, and they don't even know it.

it is definitely possible from a code perspective at least

Making every tee have strong hook 100% of the time, besides on maps that absolutely require it, would just all around be a quality improvement IMO.

05:08

The game would feel better to play, there's absolutely no reason to keep a bug that degrades the quality of the game on all of the maps that don't even require it.

Well, there are two reasons I could think of, it would become even more unknown, because it wouldn't exist on a majority of the maps... But, there could be some kind of notification that the mechanic exists via a server message when the map is loaded? Making this change would completely remove the need for /spec .. And I guess would make a lot of the ranks slightly easier to beat... But, is that so bad? For the overall improvement of the game (edited)

Some maps have ranks that haven't been beaten in a long time anyways, I feel like the boost of competition would be a welcome change. Maybe it'd make some people want to try a little harder, knowing they wont have awkward RNG on their hooks.

05:28

Yes, weak / strong hook is something you can learn and master. You can study maps and figure out which part the person with strong should get, but it's absolutely not a fun mechanic to have in the game in general.

i sometimes see people switching tees / using /spec to try to remove weakhook and that feels like something that people shouldnt have to do

Yea, it feels like a very barbaric system, and it's something I think ddnet could improve upon greatly, it's a very massive quality of life change, super important IMO.

05:33

There are so many toss parts that I see noobs struggling with, and a majority of it is the fact that weak hook exists. It makes it so much harder to learn. A lot of the older players don't realize how obnoxious it is.

keep /spec tho

05:40

i think ur kinda overexaggerating the severity of having a weak hook but i do agree it should be changed / altered for newer maps

I'm really not, you think that because you're so used to it, but it really does affect newer players, quite a bit.

05:42

And the general gameplay feel, it's very obnoxious to have the feel of your hook vary because of the order of which you joined / killed

05:43

Also, /spec wouldn't exist on any map that doesn't absolutely require weak hook, everyone having strong hook makes it a worthless command. The sole reason for /spec is to give someone strong hook.

05:45

Instead of it being used to give strong hook to people to make parts easier / possible, it'd be used to give people weak hook to make certain parts possible.

05:46

It'd be a cleaner implementation of the system, while also greatly improving the quality of gameplay on all other maps.

no /spec is good in t0 to not be blocky too

It's a very cheatable mechanic on maps, we can't allow it to be possible on every single one. I guess the current possible /spec maps could still keep it.. But I feel like most people would opt to just have strong hook at all times, instead of /spec to make space for other people.

05:49

DDrace isn't gores, /spec to make room for people isn't very important.

lol uve obviously never played blocky-ish maps

lol

1

05:52

ppl will get pissed if u remove /spec anyways so imo better to keep

[3:08 AM] qshar: The best explanation was something like this: When you race and you feel that you didn't warm up - you just have the weak hook. When you save players like a pro, that means you have strong hook

05:53

its pretty subtle^

05:53

but it makes a diference

Questioning my experience is cute, but yea, I don't think having /spec as a mechanic to cater to large groups in ddrace shouldn't really be encouraged.

05:55

Again, I don't think it really matters if maps like Aim kept /spec

lol what? t0 on ger is always one of the top servers

But the core reason for it being there is for strong hook, and that wouldn't be a thing anymore, with this change

05:56

And a vast majority of maps don't even have /spec

i also really notice weak hook when playing on the ddnet fng servers, but only because im used to everyone having strong hook

05:56

i never noticed it at all before making the fix

Weak is cool

I'm sure it feels frustrating to a majority of players, it's a bug after all.

06:39

It's not even a fun bug either, not something that has potential to improve the game, like bunnyhopping in half life

Remove fatigue from sprinting in cod, it would change negatively

You're defending a mechanic that isn't part of the core gameplay, it's just a nuisance on the feel of the game.

fatigue is there on purpose to make sprinting less op right

Correct

weak isnt there to make strong feel less op

06:40

its just physics bug

I like it

That's fine

It adds spice to the game

06:40

Like

06:40

You are the alpha tee if you have strong on all

06:40

kek

i dont know enough about ddrace to say here but i can say removing it from fng was a positive change

Maybe call it alpha and beta tee instead of strong and weak kek

kek

Nice meme lol, but yea, I don't think it's good for a lot of reasons, I've already mentioned most of them

06:44

People that have been playing for a long time got used to it, so they don't really mind it anymore, but newer players will feel it, and the game will feel worse to play to them, and they won't even know it's because of this stupid bug that has been plaguing the game since it started, and the justification for keeping it is because SOME maps require it.. Well, why not let those maps keep the ability to switch to it, instead of having it on all maps. (edited)

The problem is more that we dont know how to find maps that need it so all old maps would have to keep the old mechanic

what would make a map require weak hook?

To my knowledge, there's a very small amount of maps that actually require it

06:46

And, I think that risk is fine? People will report the map as being broken, and it'll be flagged for this new system.

There are some drag parts I was shown

We've already had issues with maps being broke in the past, it'd be the same thing

Well those were unpresicted, this would break some maps and we'd most likely not lnow for months

If we reach out and figure out which maps require it before pushing the update, that'd be even better

are the broken maps literaly impossible without weak hook

I'm sure some people have some memory of which maps need it

For the stopper changes we just ran a script to find all the maps that neeed updating

or possibly it could be added as an opt-in rather than opt-out, so that only new maps / maps that are fixed manually will have strong for all

It's such a stupidly low amount of maps that require it, I don't think keeping this mechanic JUST for those maps is a good thing

is it easy to figure out if a map needs weak

I think opt in would make the confusion worse, no?

well i didnt know

It's such a stupidly low amount of maps that require it,

when i typed it (edited)

I can't even count the amount of maps that require weak hook on 1 hand

Also btw its not exactly trivial to get rid of weak hook, but I have a solid ish idea

From what I've played

ud have to have played thru every single map to know right?

06:50

yeah the fix for weak hook involves changing a good amount of stuff across several files

Each tick youll have to compensate for the weaker tees

Correct, but ddnet doesn't have every map that I've played that requires it lol I don't remember their names, which is the main issue lol

I hope a second pass is not necwssary because that would be quite horrible for performance

i dont remember exactly what the fix was

06:51

something with changing saturatedadd

I think there is a fix pr'd on vanilla actually and heinrich commented on it the actual proper way to fix it

"Questioning my experience is cute, but yea,"

06:53

cute

kek

you cant remove spec, its simply a great tool when you race a map with 20 ppl, or semi gores maps that ddnet has

06:53

you play always on team so u dont know

louis triggered me a bit with his usual reminder of his existence kek

kek

Yeah spec I think we'll keep

also iwouldnt change weak strong hook, deen already did it and reversed it in the future cuz lot of ppl complained

Most maps don't have /spec but yea

There is sometimes no way to get out of the way in maps and it just angers everyone

Why did they complain, ryo?

i think the fixes were mostly in tick() and stuff and didnt change the netcode at all

i dont know, i wasnt there, but deen always says it

That sounds insane lol, why would people argue for a bug that makes the gameplay feel shitty

did u fail a map today due to weak hook?

I think the fix deen applied wasnt actually remoivng it completely but making weak and strong more similar

No, it's just something that's been on my mind for years

it also involved adding a PostTick function

06:55

but not an extra loop afaik

just ask qshar how to fix it

ye

@deen why didnt people like removing the weak?

on servers with the fix by qshar weak hook is entirely removed

Also I see noobs not understanding what makes their hook not pull as good as it should, and it really fucks them over

06:56

It'd be way easier to just fix the problem, and not try and teach them a stupid bug that shouldn't exist

Ye its game mechanic, just ask lol

A lot of things fuck noobs over in ddrace :(

honestly, if i would care about noobs, strong weak hook is t he last of the things i would care, they dont even have a tutorial xddd

mostly the ddrace part

It's just a very harsh experience learning ddrace

the servers are the worst

troll

1

@plsplsplslol u

In general though, do we all actually like weak hook? Really?

u should have a server that only has easy maps

A lot of things fuck ppl in dark souls

i like it tho

Deal with it

the hard way to learn ddnet

06:57

makes u proud

true

06:57

but took me a month

There is big learning curve

to realize that u could change maps

there is a lot of time from when you start to the first time you finish a map

I dong actually mind weak hook that much but it's been 10 years. I won't pretend it was essy to get used to

xd

Sure, it has some slight charm, we all had to learn it, sure... But is it really good to keep it, is that added randomness for noobs a good thing? I don't think so

It changes how you fly it changes how you throw it changes how you drag

well its not randomness as is cuz its deterministic who has it and who doesnt, wrong term

I tried to get a couple friends to play the game and they had trouble getting one throw consistent

Changes so much, and learning that is so fucking stupid for newer players, they just think they messed up, when in reality, it's a bug making it way harder than it should be

if we do this we should know about maps with weak hook, or konsti will raid the discord

Maybe an indicator to show who has strong could help, but I dont think we should make this bug a feature

add a server that only has mud and just2easy on it

its not even a bug for vanilla its just not needed in ddr

what

https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2148

Remove "weak" hook by ftk · Pull Request #2148 · teeworlds/teeworlds

This fixes #541 Depending on the order of character spawn, players have stronger or weaker hook on each others. The reason is that velocity calculation of characters is order dependent: Example: pl...

07:00

@Learath2

It's a very negative bug, I don't like the effect it has on gameplay, I'd rather it be gone, than embraced. I feel like newer players would very much prefer it not existing

nah it was originally added to vanilla to give positive feedback loops towards top players

kek

2

wrong

Negative for you

lol

huh

lol

whats the reason then

lmao

sad tw fix

Image attachment

the reason is that its a physics bug

im p sure it was on purpose

like heinrich says in this link

07:01

no

wat

okay, louis is 100% trolling lol

how tf is strong/weak a bug in original tw

07:01

how do you even make that a bug

read the image

07:02

he explains why

it seems like something that would purposefully be in

and yet it isnt

@louis it wasnt on purpose, your murican brain can do more than this, its a bug that turned into a feature in ddrace, ddrace is basically made out of a bug that alllows you to hook in corners, it was never intended either

stop racism pls

greenthing

louis its not on purpose wtf

@noby u

i always thought it was

07:02

guess i learned smth today

u

Depending on the order of character spawn, players have stronger or weaker hook on each others.
The reason is that velocity calculation of characters is order dependent:
Example: player a has spawned before player b and b is hooking a:
a.vel *= friction
...
b.vel *= friction
b.vel += hookforce
a.vel += hookforce

b has spawned before a:
b.vel *= friction
b.vel += hookforce
a.vel += hookforce
...
a.vel *= friction

This is a bug that is very expected btw, it's actually very hard to balance these things when you are working with a finite timestep

Do we actually need to make the game even dumber?

Yea, actually.. What? Teeworlds isn't a dumb game

I mean if the game is 1000iq now it'd be 990iq

Like spikes wont kill you if you politely say no?

It's actually one of the hardest games I've ever seen to get into

tw is good

cant u just calculate it from whoever is hooking to the hookee

Yes a subtle game mechanic vs remove spikes

what if both tees hook eachother

Talk about hyperbole

just calculate it twice

@louis man... idk if u want to show of stupidness on purpose, the calculation is explained by heinrich in the image i just sent

07:04

but ye continue with ur 5 grade math

@noby exactly the problem fhats why this might require a second physics pass

2+2 is 4 thats quick math

@Ryozuki stfu dont call me a 5th grader when ur maturity level is even lower than that

no its 5

07:05

poggers

Stop trolling in this channel lol

First you go over all the tees and distribute the forces. Then you go over and cap them

poggers

i

poggers

am

poggers

louis

ur funny bro

thats what the posttick thing is for i think

Yeah might have a bit more of a performance impact then intended

whys that

An entire second pass through?

no its just

Atleast the second pass is quite cheap

after core.tick() doing core.posttick() which is only 2line function

07:08

it doesnt look like much overhead to me atall compared to some of the other stuff that runs every tick for every character

I mean the tick is already O(n^2) so it probably wont be noticable

ive tried profiling my server in a couple ways and it seems negligible

07:10

maybe its different with 64pl server compared to 32 idk

07:10

but probably not since they do it on kog too

Anyway implementation is not thr main issue here

07:13

Hm, maybe we should just make it, deploy it and test it

4

07:15

I wonder if it creates r1s that wont be beatable though and I wonder how it affects hookfly

it probably would on maps like just triple fly

07:17

or just rocketfly, etc

I feel like it wouldn't be an issue

would only be if for some reason it didnt work out and a revert would happen

test hookfly on a server that already has the fix maybe

Yeah but a revert then would nuke all ranks that were done on the new patch

do the patch on half the servers and show a message that says it may be reverted/ranks deleted

I highly doubt hookfly would feel much different with both strong hook, maybe you'd have to press a direction a little more or less, but it's a very adjustable mechanic

07:20

Or adjust your hook duration

have u tried

Nope, but I'll try it now, if anyone wants to test it on noby's fng server with me lol

no weak would make a shit ton of r1s pop up btw

can u do it with dummy

Perfectly fine IMO, brings new competition, people do these types of things in other games all the time. (edited)

its hard to test hookfly correctly w dummy

07:23

tbh i kinda don't want this to happen cause reverse speedfly is cool but itd make everything easier

Yea, I tested it on fng just now, feels the same

nice

We should probably ask deen what complaints people were making about it

07:26

To see if it wasn't just a bunch of nonsense

are there parts that literally cant be done with strong

yes bruh

07:28

like in 3 random oldschool maps

Reverse speedfly is for glitching through things lol

exactly

huh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uVMx-Sk3bs

Pirofly aka. reverse speed fly

lool wut

07:34

hax

07:34

is it related to weak hook tho?

Yes, but the time was removed for this, and the map was fixed

why is it related to weak hook

I've never done this before, but I assume the tee on the bottom hooks with weak hook

07:36

It's a fairly pointless mechanic, people just use it to cheat specific maps

i see ppl do it sometimes but the othe r way

07:36

going upwards lol

Yea, speedfly

is it another one thats hard to test with dummy

I don't use dummy often, ask murpi / nexus

07:37

@murpi

07:38

I can probably do it on your server, but the hammer needs to not be powerful lol

go fng small server i can remove the hammer tuning there

9:21 AM] louis: no weak would make a shit ton of r1s pop up btw [9:21 AM] onby: can u do it with dummy [9:21 AM] Skeith: Perfectly fine IMO, brings new competition, people do these types of things in other games all the time.

07:47

that kinda goes against the whole policy of the last 8 (?) years

07:48

deen always tried to avoid any change that would make previous runs outdated as much as possible

07:48

and that one change literally makes most of the previous run biased

It'd be slightly better times, times that people would've gotten regardless, in reality, no?

07:48

Or damn close

also people didnt rly complain because of the mechanic being gone but because the fix was bad, u just had strong for movements but for hammerfly and such u still had weak

I see

which made it impossible to know which one should be driving

is it the same fix i have

dunno

07:50

iirc it was a fix by fisted

Well, deen added the change once already, no? It just wasn't well implemented

08:06

So he was willing to slightly mess up the times before, the times really wont improve THAT much due to the change anyways, I genuinely think if people beat the times with 2 strong hooks, then they could've done it without as well.

08:06

But the quality of gameplay will go up by quite a bit, it's very much worth changing it imo

well it was 50 years ago

08:06

lol

08:06

it fucks up thousands more ranks rn

08:07

the more time goes on the worse it is to make mechanic changes

Yea..

i dont see noobs complaining about hook

but i prsonally dont mind anyway the hammer change fucked everything

08:07

already

08:07

i would even be for a full reset with all these changes

It's a fundamental flaw with the game though, I think it'd still be worth doing now

and accounts

08:07

but thats in a parallel world

08:07

greenthing

there are 4,157,174 ranks greenthing

greenthing

Fuck em

greenthing

well to be fair not even 1% of them are meant to be competitive

08:08

but ye

08:08

still unfair to ppl who spent hours runnign a map

hooking through corners is a fundamental flaw of the game, lets change it too

1

woke

in 0.7 that almost got fixed i thikn

08:09

or it even did

08:09

in vanilla

no

But it's a core part of ddrace, unlike this bug, that really just makes the game feel like trash.

there is discussion

@Ryozuki thats usually coz they are just not aware of the difference, its a huge pain when they try to learn driving and similar stuff with hammerfly, since its a lot harder with weak hook even tho they aren't doing anything wrong

noobs also dont know they can hook through acorner greenthing

greenthing

well thats subjective @Skeith

08:10

strong weak hook can be seen as a core part of ddrace always as its been there literally forever

weak hook strong hook are part of core ddrace

I suppose, but that's subjective to old players, mostly. Newer players wont like the mechanic if they KNEW it existed, but they don't.. xd

it is annoying at times but why could it not been seen as a mechanic?

its not even a random thing

08:11

u can control it with team

yeah its just something that u have to take into account

08:11

when playing

Yes, we know that.

08:11

New players don't, and it's silly we have to explain the bug to people so they can play normally

because its a bug thats been fixed on other servers

hows that an argument

you consider it a bug

08:11

but in ddrace its a feature

if other servers remove speedfly we should remove it too?

you can do what you want in your mod

i mean kog

08:12

is a race type server

for gores

08:12

they do their thing

08:12

we do our

I don't like the idea of clinging to a bug that negatively impacts pretty much everyone, it's just something we've learned to play with, it's not fun.. Lets not pretend like it is, nor is it good game design.. It doesn't really add meaningful depth to the game, we're dumbass old farts that should probably think about newer players

yeah its kind of a bad game design thing

08:13

but that doesnt mean its not core part of ddrace lol

08:14

(and being core part of ddrace doesnt mean it should never be changed either)

can someone show me a map that cant be done without weak

At the end of the day, a better server would have this fix.

@ᶰ°Konͧsti knows some

08:14

at the end of the day its not as easy as u make it sound

08:14

and it has collateral

Mild

08:15

I've gone through the negatives in my big rant

that uve minimized big time

Have I?

yes

08:15

10:06 AM] Skeith: So he was willing to slightly mess up the times before, the times really wont improve THAT much due to the change anyways, I genuinely think if people beat the times with 2 strong hooks, then they could've done it without as well.

08:15

for instance that

08:15

is just plain wrong

08:15

if u get 10:00 race time and they get 10:01 with both strong

I've been talking about it for awhile now, scroll up lol

they would not have beaten the 10:00

08:15

with that run

08:16

which is unfair

08:16

and that 10:00 run would have be faster

08:17

and if theres a slight different mechanic with the fix

08:17

the community backlash will be rly bad

It's exhausting to argue about times like that, it's kind of greedy to not want this change because you had some times that you're scared some people will come through and beat you by a few seconds.

as for u fucking up ranks doesnt matter but for all the ppl that spent time making them its kinda lame

You lose the times eventually, it happens. Just do it again, your times wont remain forever.

ive literally said im not against the change at that point

08:17

im jsut being realisitc

08:18

and not trying to have fake blinkers

08:18

pretending everything is fine

whats wrong with the idea of putting strong hook on only some of the servers with a label that its just an experiment and the ranks may not stay

ur arguing like a politican

08:18

politician

Yea, I'm just trying to voice some reason for a mechanic that is really detrimental to the game, I get your point

08:19

I want what's best for the game is all, I'd argue for the change even if I had 50 rank 1s

yeah yeah

08:20

but when u wanna push a change u have to think outside of ur own perspective

This really just affects the gameplay that much, it makes it unfun for us old farts, having to deal with managing weak / strong.. And newer players are actually just suffering because of it, it feels bad all around.

and think how negatively it could actually impact everyone else

08:21

with a subjective mindset

08:21

i.e coz u dont mind losing ur r1s doesnt mean other ppl who spent time doing them will not mind eithe

08:21

r

wouldnt the change roughly help everyone equally

@noby in the future yes but retroactively not

oh nvm

08:21

yeah

It would, it'd just mess up people with good times, they could 100% retake them, but yea (edited)

08:22

You gotta put in the effort again, which is annoying, for sure.

note that ranks on maps aren't generally as close a 1 second

couldnt u make a similar type of argument about changes like the auto hammer

no rank will ever (?) be perfect

08:22

doesnt make it more fair

08:22

to change a make mechanic that makes beating that rank easier

the ranks aren't as close, if it'd really be 1 second as you suggested, then it doesn't matter

if a player spent 3 hours for a ranking because he was constrained by that mechanic, it's not really fair to allow other people to beat him within 1 hour with a newer mechanic

08:23

for most cases yeah but that will obviously happen

I mean at that point you'd have to do some statistics

08:24

someone else wil lcome along and say that this doesn't happen

well

08:24

anyway that affects lke 1% of the playerbase

08:24

so if u go by stats it dosnt matter at all xd

that's not how stats work

pepeH

you could e.g. check how far apart rank 1 and 2 are for many maps

on novice its often very close

do some stats

08:25

show me the distribution of the time difference between rank 1 and 2

08:25

on all/all novice/all non-solo maps

i was jk @Skeith was right lets implement it

08:26

justatest

08:26

justatest

lol

08:26

Nah but lets be real, this change is worth some pain from everyone

i cant think of other examples besides the auto hammer freeze thing but werent there

08:26

other times where changes were made to the servers that make getting ranks easier than they used to be

there were a few minor ones

08:27

jetpack mechanic has been changed once or twice

08:27

but it was in the early days

08:27

but ye the hammer one was big enough at that point it doesnt matter

That auto hammer in freeze 100% made some massive skips

yeah ive mentionned it

08:27

earlier

Yea, I'd argue it's way bigger than fixing weak

ye

08:27

it is

That was very recent too

@Skeith @snail note that many people forget that you could do the hammer reliably before

i wonder how much of an impact it would have on peoples ranks if weak was removed

simply spin your unlocked mouse wheel

if its in the scale of a few seconds or more

@noby it hugely depends on the maps

makes it harder lol

in some maps if weak has the wrong spot its rly annoying

Yea. not everyone has a mousewheel like that though

loses dozen of seconds and makes it harder yeah

as a dummy player, please dont remove auto hammer justatest

justatest

REMOVE IT!!!! IT RUINED EVERYTHING!! AAAAH!!

@Skeith it leveled the playing field for people with/without that mousewheel

REEEEEEE

remove hook, hooking is hard for noobs cuz they have to aim

troll

3

it was possible before @Skeith

troll

Yea lol

08:29

I actually did a massive skip on a hookthrough map

08:30

using multiple tees and syncing katana with the hammer in freeze lol

08:30

Got rank 1 on the map, I think some people wanted my time removed lol

look tw

The map was Just Hookthrough

oh

katana

lol

dont know what your point is what you are describing was just as possible before the fix

Oh, I was just saying lol, not arguing anything lol

08:32

Was basically saying I knew it was possible before the change lol

ah, understood that differently ^^

remove jump, its hard for nobos

08:36

troll

Hard for you, maybe.. Not for us big boy gamers.. -pounds chest-

Deleting weak is an old discussion and were already made on DDNet and reverted again. Im absolutely against implementing it. Also The problem about "pirofly" still exists with both having strong because the weak physic is very deep in the code

Apparently reverted because it was implemented poorly

Stop changes to the game mechanics peperage

peperage

It's a very healthy change to the game, and it'd only slightly affect the times

@ᶰ°Konͧsti there is an easy fix, which will also fix pirofly.

Weak is a feature and shouldnt be changed

09:31

Btw, Where is there no Turn off entities sign in Front layer?

If it's a feature, it's the worst feature in the game, and it brings everything down.

weak is a bug, a bug that exists since forever

09:32

@ᶰ°Konͧsti you can just use the index from the front layer, entities will show i

09:32

t

sounds like a bug

ye

Yea, I hate the idea of making it an actual feature, when it negatively impacts most things. It's just selfish to consider it such, think of everyone else, don't only think of yourself and your own times.

I meant the "turn off entities invisiblei nthe editor"

I know, heinrich

sounds like it should be removed ingame or from the editor

wat

i guess added to the front.png

It should just be added to front.png xx

09:35

I see no negative impact from weak. Its easy to deal with it and it doesnt even make a difference on most parts. Only all these aoe players that yelling for strong for every simple drag part think its needed

If we are removing weak someone else commit it, at this rate Konsti is going to put a hit out on me

justatest

were not going to remove it

Why, it was my idea, kill me instead!

it was an idea through all years and there were reasons it didnt had been done

09:36

Dont start this shit again

Yea I know, but I brought it up now lol

I think there is a QoL improvement needed here if we want new players tbh, maybe a way to indicate you have strong/weak at the very least?

feelsamazingman

1

I feel like it'd be way better if people just took the hit, it's really just an annoying mechanic, having to learn it and deal with it is just... Bad

Its skill

09:37

Seems like u dont have

@ᶰ°Konͧsti stop

09:37

stop personal attacks

new players dont even know that there are 2 hook strengths

No skill involved, you just have to play differently each time, and it's tedious, it's almost like you're learning 2 games in 1

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #2257 highlight of wrong player

as found by enji on discord:

if i connect to a empty server i get ID 0 and when i connect my dummy it gets ID 1, when I kick him with command "kick 1" it disconnects the tee but my client still thinks my dummy is in the game, then when somebody connects and gets my dummy original ID which was 1 and that person gets tagged in msg, the msg will highlight for me

There is an exclusive club of people that get off on being able to outperform others in slight ways, all the physics changes offend them deeply

@ᶰ°Konͧsti just as you expect others to acknowledge that it can make a difference on maps, it would be good if you could also realize that people brought up arguments that it does negatively affect e.g. the new player experience

09:38

re the "I see no negative impact from weak."

Awful for newer players, you have to understand that it's difficult for newer players to get into this game, a bug that makes the game feel inconsistent is FRUSTRATING.

It's kinda understandable, they spent hundreds of hours polishing their gameplay, but does that mean we have to be stuck forever for the 10 people that think like this?

Its just bad to change game mechanics

09:39

I hate it

Ooh, I have a quote for this one "Stagnation is akin to regression"

It's kind of a similar issue with older people and technology, they're so used to how things were, they don't want it to change. Even though the change is overall just better for everyone's quality of life

No idea who said it but our business teacher loved saying that

09:41

If this is going to be a feature, we should fully dish it out, currently it feels random for new people

there will be unbeatable ranks due fixing pirofly thonkery

thonkery

do we have many new players?

feelsbadman

1

I will personally go through and deal with those times, I will sweat for this change, gladly.

09:43

It'd benefit everyone

@deen well not really, but if we want them it'd be good to either indicate strong/weak hook or remove weak hook

how do you know we don't have new players @Learath2 ?

well we definitely have new players, who should be taken care of. also becoming more beginner friendly should always be a priority imo

is this just an assumption?

For sure, we have a ton of new players

09:44

I frequent novice servers

Well the player numbers haven't been going up, so atleast it's as many new people as old people that leave

i'm ok with removing it (again) and fixing the few maps that require it. what about the fast fly getting slower?

do you need weak for the quick hammer fly?

konsti claims so. i'm not pro enough to know

i guess it depends on how u patch it

Or players that aren't really skilled yet, weak hook just negatively impacts those players. It impacts literally everyone, we're just used to it

1

an indicator on the tee seems good, deleting it big bad

personally i only speed raced with weak, so no experience with strong

@Skeith anything that is seen as a "mechanic" will obviously impact everyone, i dont see how that is an argument

I don't actually know why speedfly happens on the physics level so not sure if it'd change anything

Speedfly works with strong only

did u try speedflying on kog @ᶰ°Konͧsti ?

if u fix pirofly i doubt speedfly will work

I guess the top tee is the one that has strong so the bottom tee also being "strong" doesn't matter much w.r.t. to that

09:47

.s/to//

no its releated to the weak/strong bounce

09:47

There is another thing

u care so much about new players, but there arent, and they couldnt care less about a weak hook, they would care more about a tutorial

do strong and weak people bounce off eachother differently?

@Learath2 yes, necessarily

Maps wont work anymore or get verx harder because it fixes the shotgun run with weak/strong

My argument is, people are just overly stubborn about things, this change is just amazing for the game, and it's frustrating that people would try and defend weak hook simply because they're so used to it being there. It's not like it actually makes the game better

@Ryozuki why do you believe we have no new players?

u miss out a lot of things

didn't we change it before and had to revert?

cuz ddnet used to have wya

09:48

way more players

Yes deen

2016 the golden age

09:48

ppl leave, dont come

that just says that more players leave than join

09:49

not that we don't have new players

The shotgun physics are The most important argument against it

09:49

It requires weak and was used on lots of maps

@deen we reverted it because it wasnt a proper fix basically, u didnt have strong while hammerflying and u had no way to figure out who had the real strong

ok

so u had no idea who was supposed to drive hammerflies

If both have real strong i doubt speedfly will work so

changing this will virtually bring no new players

lmao

well it has to be tested

when a player needs to know about strong hook, they are already into the game

09:50

the entry barrier is way earlier

I didn't think it'd affect shotgun physics either as tees don't interact with eachother

than the weak strong hook

09:50

ur focusing on the wrong thing

@ᶰ°Konͧsti shotgunning other players?

It helps, you're fooling yourself if you think it isn't just a massive QoL change for literally everyone

massive qol

@heinrich5991 shotgunrun

this isnt a massive qol imho

Its a gamemechanic with weak

@Ryozuki not improving something because there might be other stuff, is nonsensical

how is this improving

09:51

imho its part of the fun

09:51

this is not an improvement in my eyes

@Ryozuki well I spent a couple hours trying to get friends into ddrace it is indeed an issue when they try to learn throws

It gives u a lot of sidespeed and is used as parts and as tricks

It is a massive QoL, having to figure out who has weak or strong, and having to play around weak every single time you have it is very annoying

@ᶰ°Konͧsti but if not more than one tee is involved, how can weak/strong have an effect?

konsti isnt that mostly on exploity maps like brainduck?

or am I misunderstanding what shotgunrun is?

However, this change will only help noobs and @Ryozuki is right that without a tutorial we won't get many anyway

@Patiga

09:52

the shotgun speed boost is and can be used in lots of maps

@heinrich5991 2 tees walk left next to each other, the left one shotguns the right one repeatedly, the one on the right gains massive speed

esp oldschool ones

I'm a noob then, I'd enjoy this change lol. Even though I've been playing for 11 years lmao

Oh, that kind of shotgun run

@heinrich5991 shotgunrun is like hammerrun but with shotgun

https://youtu.be/aYCpB0v4Mcg?t=97

Teeworlds DDRace - Tricks #3

And it definitely requires real weak

eh there are patched servers, like qshars

09:54

does it not work on there?

here shotgunrun

Gores and fng are good with all strong

09:54

Because they dont have weak mechanics

I'm wondering whether the things you assume will break, actually break

so we need a change to try it out, could we get the code from qshar?

09:56

and then we need a list of physics we expect to break and have to test them

09:56

and maybe adjust the physics a bit if possible

I guess the question becomes "Is the work and pissing of Konsti actually worth it?"

100%

.s/of/off/

ur pissing of the game

no

@ᶰ°Konͧsti did u try on kog or not

09:57

can u speedfly there

sure, there are more important things like tw7 compatibility. but if someone really cares about this, they can work on it

i dont know if KoG did just give strong hook or real strong for both

Skeith can code it

I can basically hear Wombat calling us lowlifes for changing this

And many more

I would love to, but I can't code. FeelsBadMan

kek

1

danAmazing

1

This discord will be swarmed

nah

U represent 1% here

U

@Learath2 the loudest voice isn't always the most important

i actually think most ppl would be happy about it

Eh, even the auto hammer change only brought like 3-4 mad men out of their caves

IF its done properly

I highly doubt that, I feel like a majority of people would greatly appreciate the change, including newer players

but im sure most current patches break speedfly and stuff

Because people don't say something if ur doing trash

09:59

They want to play

what

09:59

the other wxay arounds

10:00

if its trazsh they cry a lot and if its good they stfu

Yeah I have a feeling it'll break speedfly and shotgunrun, we'd be capping the speed post tick and I think these happen because of the way collision effects are propagated

Anyway it will break the physics if ur giving both real strong

10:00

Add an indicator for real strong and then give both strong hook

how do u do that on a 64p servr

Me and murpi tested speedfly on noby's server, he has forced strong hook

10:01

Worked fine

The indicator would be like the feet for Dj i guess

But yea, idk how he does it

noby fng hast also super hammer

Skeith feels this and that, he feels a lot of things

I'd feel you

Hm actually don't know how you'd indicate with 64p, maybe a slight "glow" around the tees you have strong on?

?

The strong hook on fng was with Help from qshar btw

u have to rank

10:03

dozens of players

10:03

next to each other

10:03

its kinda impossible imo

rank?

player 1 has strong on 2 3 4 5

10:03

2 has strong on 3 4 5

oh right cuz everyone has another strong

how do u exactly tell that on 10 players next to each other

10:03

it will become a clusterfuck

10:03

lol

Yeah, but what's important is for you to know who you have strong on, no?

yeah

10:04

u could do that differently for each player?

Yeah, sure

o

10:04

thats nice then

10:05

(tbh thats the exact same problem as we currently have tho)

10:05

"a counter intuitive mechanic that makes it worse for beginners"

The order of the entities in the gameworld is what determines this and it's not hard to keep track of that (I think we already do even to force strong)

10:06

Could maybe even find the person that has strong on the most people and mark them differently

Maybe the hook gets a color Which shows weak/strong for the player ur hooking?

Sounds really messy to me, I hope it's possible to just get rid of weak hook somehow and keep these other mechanics. Are they even actually used? I know speedfly is

shotgunrun Definitely used

to make everything order-independent you have to audit a lot of code

I think there is no question whether these are used

10:10

Yeah not as easy as one might think to make it all order independent and I think it does always necessitate a second pass

you could just print a number next to each tee

sounds ugly

yes

10:11

well, then hook color?

huh, sounds less ugly

10:11

hook color, a glow around the tee that you can toggle

10:11

like with the indicator

10:11

hold b down to see who you have strong on

10:13

@heinrich5991 isn't it only external velocity changes that need "balancing"

hm yes. but that includes collision

hm maybe we can use a function for changing velocity that everything has to go through?

I'm not confident enough in that solution to claim that it will definitely work ^^

How to split a quad in editor

1

#2257 is caused because we are missing an offline check in PumpNetwork for the dummy

10:22

@ᶰ°Konͧsti you sure it's possible? I don't see any reference to it in code

[5:02 AM] ᶰ°Konͧsti: noby fng hast also super hammer i turned it off on the test server so they could try

@Learath2 ive seen someone creating a skin with the skin.png everyone have

10:24

Like puzzling it in the editor

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request opened: #2258 Don't miss dummy disconnects. Fix #2257

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue closed: #2257 highlight of wrong player

10:46

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #2258 Don't miss dummy disconnects. Fix #2257

10:46

[ddnet:master] 2 new commits

345798f Don't miss dummy disconnects. Fix #2257 - Learath2 6ccfdd5 Merge #2258 - bors[bot]

@Patiga do you know something about @ᶰ°Konͧsti's request?

where is it?

https://discordapp.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/720583600264708163 https://discordapp.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/720584182115598337

i think hold ctrl or shift while dragging something

10:51

although ive never done anything with that, also not sure if its exactly that

10:54

okay that sorta works, but im unable to cut it down to something sensible, not smth super stretched

10:54

its shift + drag the corners of a quad

@ᶰ°Konͧsti ^

xd thx, i made an extra png for everything now xD

Isnt this basically uv mapping?

11:27

You should be able to map any part of the texture toany quad

11:28

I thought you actually wanted to cut a quad

11:28

Like a knife tool

i think its supposed to be doable by holding space and selecting the part of the image you want

11:29

doesnt seem to work tho

11:30

btw fun bug

11:30

hold space in a quad layer

11:30

select stuff, click

11:30

repeat

11:31

you'll duplicate the image, shift it a bit

11:31

and the visual bug persists over seperate quad layers

when i was a new player i didnt even know weak existed until some aoe video explained it and i didnt notice

13:19

it was definitely surprising to learna bout it so at least indicate that it exists to new players

13:23

i also think the long term benefits of removing weak would outweigh the few strats it would break

no u

snail: what was a fix by me?

removing weak hook

i remember debugging that and finding the cause

15:16

but i don't think i've ever actually fixed that

15:17

because it would require rewriting a good deal of the game core

i guess im confusing with another patch of urs that we implemented then

I think the patch was bears

Y

@Learath2 whats the differences between default 0.7 protocol and your imported ones?

16:27

I mean, what did you add to get them to work for your project

16:27

I want to do it the same way for my 0.7 server for 0.6 support

16:28

So I need to import the 0.6 protocol and do the changes there

I didnt change much of anything, I emit a namespace block to keep it from colliding with the actual protocol

17:02

There is crosscompile.py that generates the message maps

You also need message repacking if you want to avoid ugly bittwiddling to get the larger messages in there

Yes, of course

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