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DDraceNetwork
Development / developer
Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet
Between 2019-09-29 00:00:00Z and 2019-09-30 00:00:00Z
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84aabfc M Redefined, M Dummy Chamber - ddnet-maps
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 08:18:31Z
@heinrich5991 no clue how to debug such thing. Any ideas?
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watch/breakpoints in the graphics thread
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 08:56:55Z
and what am i searching there?
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@ChillerDragon try gfx_resizable 0
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 09:05:35Z
Yea that helped thanks @Deleted User I will play around the next time ill need to launch the client but for now it sometimes worked.
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@heinrich5991 nice blogpost
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 09:07:37Z
where did u read it?
09:07
do youe men github/heinrich/blog ?
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 09:07:50Z
ahty
09:08
i even starred the repo and didnt notice it was published xd
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@heinrich5991 anything new this patch allow that we might not want?
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 09:18:12Z
cool blog post love it. But yikes the patch sounds really game changing.
09:20
I suggest letting some pros play with the patch first before merging it. And see what becomes possible. So that he do not risk some unexpected op behaviour.
09:20
would this allow for freeze hammer chaining for example?
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if hammer buffers like grenade then yes
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 09:21:14Z
could be op on some maps i guess
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you could easily hammer through thick freeze walls
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 09:24:48Z
for sure a t0 speedrunning game changer
09:25
i mean idk maybe not too bad and i really like the idea of supporting it without deepfly bind but we have to test it for sure,
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ye it is cool but probably causes some cheats on old maps
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Hmm, you could do hammer chains with a scrollwheel
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also completely removes the timing aspect of "double hammer" out of unfreeze during a hammerhit
10:03
definitely needs testing
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on the other hand it was the same with weapons in freeze before deen fixed it way back in 2013. maybe this should have been added years ago as well
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@heinrich5991 wouldnt that allow deepflying with normal players?
10:23
basically means cheating a huge chunk of our current deepfreeze parts
10:23
(which are already cheatable with dummy - which is bad - but not intended to be done that way)
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maybe just allow it on dummy and new maps first
10:39
what if its possible to just walk infinitly through freezetee_thinking
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having inconsistent mechanics from map to map is rly bad xd
10:39
just on dummy would be better that what we have now tho ye
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wait,0.7 has sha256 hashes? 😄
11:09
would never think they'd implement that citing something like map names too long or ugly
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 11:18:39Z
sure 0.7 has it all
11:19
did i mention already that 0.7 might be worth taking a look at and updating to it? xd
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@ChillerDragon did I mention a lot of people need to pitch in to get ddnet to 0.7?
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didn't we agree that we'd get a lite ddnet version running on 0.7?
11:28
isn't it only missing sql?
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wouldn't implementing sql be better then asking me?
11:29
I'm not really interested in porting the broken sql code as is
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 11:30:24Z
upgrading sql good sounds good
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I'm exploring web assembly now, maybe i'll look at rewriting sql tomorrow
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 11:31:22Z
would be amazing
11:31
(hope ur not trollin me rn :c)
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@heinrich5991 is the stopper fixed now completely? if yes, can you commit it to ddnet7?
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@heinrich5991 can you please be here to assist me with some cmake? 😛
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@redix have a minute to spare
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About the sql stuff... You want to stick to the old db scheme I think? I started implementing a sqlite based backend (should be easy to add MySQL aswell) but I'm using IDs instead of names and right now it only implements finishes and no teams, scores etc.
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@redix I was thinking of working on the db scheme aswell
12:14
What do you mean IDs tho? players don't really have ids when we don't have accounts
12:14
@redix if you have a couple seconds to spare can you try building this? https://github.com/wasmerio/wasmer-c-api
Example of the C API to embed the Wasmer runtime. Contribute to wasmerio/wasmer-c-api development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Table for players and primary key as id
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Their cmake example can't possibly work (and it doesn't) but they wouldn't have commited it if it doesn't work
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And in the finish you use the id instead of the name. So you don't have to store the name multiple times in the finish table
12:16
But it makes only sense in 0.7 since you cannot change the name
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What a joke that change is
12:17
If I ever get a workable plugin system, i'll fork teeworlds and it'll be the first change I'm reverting
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Haha :D well I'm not sure why you would change the name... But not being able the change the skin was really a bad idea
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Those things belonged in the snap and the couple dozen bytes saved by the initial snapshot being a full snapshot is not worth it
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or maybe if I'm feeling particularly nice I'll implement it as a new extended snapobject so vanilla players can still connect but see the wrong names
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It just bloats the code since you have to handle it differently in demos
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@redix did you try compiling the wasmer example?
12:20
"will you?" is a better question if not I'll bug someone else 😄
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I'm on a phone right now 😅
12:21
@archimede67 hello my fellow developer, would you mind compiling a small example for me on this fine day?
12:22
@fokkonaut or you? 😛
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what?
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can you give https://github.com/wasmerio/wasmer-c-api a quick compile?
Example of the C API to embed the Wasmer runtime. Contribute to wasmerio/wasmer-c-api development by creating an account on GitHub.
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oof hpow
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just clone
12:23
then cmake . && make
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why dont you do it? (just wondering, no offense)
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It doesn't work for me, I'm wondering whether they commited a broken example or it's my cmake version or it's another macOS oddity
12:24
(My hypothesis is cmake . should fail)
12:28
it also fails on linux so that leaves broken example or cmake version
12:34
Okay as a last resort I'll ask @HMH if he is any good with cmake 😛
12:35
debian10
12:35
oh u already tested linux
12:35
nvm then
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yeah, that settles it, the stupid example just doesn't compile at all
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:35:29Z
trolls 😄
12:35
25 stars repo
12:35
where did u find dat xd
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ExternalProject_Add builds at compile time, find_library happens at configure time
12:35
@ChillerDragon it's part of wasmer
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:35:56Z
ah wasm
12:36
you might want to build the thing first in the app folder
12:36
Example of the C API to embed the Wasmer runtime. Contribute to wasmerio/wasmer-c-api development by creating an account on GitHub.
12:37
ah wait thats a sample
12:37
xxxD
12:37
they are all examples?
12:37
are you sure this is the correct repo?
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:38:37Z
ah you just want to build a example
12:38
i see
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the sample app is compiled to wasm
12:39
the actual project then runs the wasm file
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:39:44Z
so wasm is also used for desktop apps?
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well you can
12:42
Fine, I'll implement lua instead..........
12:43
luajit is quite quick anyway
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:45:00Z
lua yikes
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lua is a very convenient language imho
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:52:04Z
i only did a very lil project with it and some bam so i cant judge i guess
12:52
do you have cargo installed btw Learath2?
12:52
cmake seems to need that
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yeah I do have cargo installed
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:53:01Z
idk then
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problem is that the build doesn't happen until build time
12:53
and find_library is looking for it before
12:53
which it's obv not there
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 12:53:39Z
yea :c
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@Learath2 still need me? xd
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@archimede67 nope
twintri 1
13:03
@archimede67 if you are familiar with cmake, you can help me link to wasmer
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@Learath2 cmake fails for me too. removing WASMER_LIB, calling make, adding it again and calling cmake and make again works 😄
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:04:13Z
wat?
13:04
remove the find library from cmakelist.txt?
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yeah that should work
13:05
Hmm I guess I can develop like that, and when @heinrich5991 is around he can fix it with his cmake-fu
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:05:33Z
just make an issue
13:05
and let those devs fix it
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made an issue, doubt they'll fix it tho
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:06:21Z
ill like it
13:06
if a heroinfluencer on github like me likes theyll do it
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there is surprisingly little resource on how to do cmake properly
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:08:31Z
who needs ressources if you have a heinrich troll
13:09
so you are going with c instead of lua again?
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well with wasm you can compile a lot of things to wasm
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:11:30Z
rust is madness
13:11
i dont even get wasmer compiled at all
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emcc can compile c to wasm
13:13
there is also a compiler from typescript iirc
13:14
but we'd only be supporting c like this :/
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:14:30Z
ill give up on it you have it running anyways huh?
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@ChillerDragon am trying
13:14
will see if it works 😛
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:14:59Z
i get bunch of rust errors
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use of unstable library feature 'try_from' (see issue #33417)...
13:15
just rust things
13:15
I give up, I'll work on revamping sql instead
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:15:59Z
ya thats what i ment by rust madness
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or maybe luajit, I'll decide in a minute or so
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:16:05Z
at least it links some issues haha
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(not like luajit has any proper integration examples around either)
13:16
I hate this step of getting shit to link
13:16
I just want to code, I don't want to mess around with cmake for hours at end
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:17:26Z
+1
13:17
just non bash things
13:17
it always just works
13:17
when are we porting ddnet to shell?
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maybe I should make my own build system
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:18:01Z
bam°
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bam is weak
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:18:11Z
o.O
13:18
ill tell magnus
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I'm imagining something like npm or cargo that handles dependencies aswell
13:18
it's pretty hard to get right for C/C++ tho
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:18:53Z
apt also handles dependencys 🙂 it works pretty fine from shell script
13:23
fstd: how to create pstd from copy buffer?
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@ChillerDragon there is xsel
13:32
the -b switch sounds useful
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:33:07Z
xsel?
13:33
-b ?
13:34
but how to finish -b then
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xsel -b is supposed to output the clipboard to stdout
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 13:38:17Z
ah
13:38
works perfect thanks
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I'm done messing around with cmake, what an absolute waste of time
14:49
I'm going to have a damn seizure
14:49
I spent 4 hours trying to get it to link, now it links but I can't add the include dirs
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 14:50:22Z
:c
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I might start crying
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 14:56:58Z
nah all will be fine
14:57
linking is good 🙂
14:57
im sure you are in top5 most productive ddnet devs today
14:57
thats a win
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@Learath2 what do you need, specifically?
⛅ 1
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@heinrich5991 I'm trying to compile and link libluajit
15:00
well download from git, compile, link
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@snail that enables deepflying with normal players. but actually it just makes it ping-independent. people with bad pings can start to do the dummy maps
15:00
except that it allows hammer unfreezing from higher client IDs to lower ones, nothing is changed
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@ChillerDragon My productivity is technically 0 as I haven't achieved anything
pepeH 1
15:03
GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
15:03
I also added a add_dependencies(engine-shared libluajit) which sounds wrong to me tbh
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@snail @jao I think that the change is great, because: 1) it removes the annoying tick-perfect gameplay that was required 2) it'll probably enable pros to do more fun tricks without buying some hardware 😉 I guess we'll see some new interesting tricks pop up
15:04
3) it removes the weird restriction of only lower client IDs being able to unfreeze higher client IDs for hammering
15:05
@Learath2 I think that by default, you'd want to link to the already built library
15:05
for testing, install libluajit on your distro, add a cmake/FindLibluajit.cmake and just go with it
15:06
we can bundle the libs later
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How does one even write the "FindLibluajit.cmake"?
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copy FindOgg.cmake and replace all instances of ogg with appropriately cased luajit
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@heinrich5991 what does find_package_handle_standard_args do?
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set OGG_FOUND if OGG_INCLUDEDIR is found
15:09
and maybe a couple of other things, don't remember
15:09
man cmake-modules
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I've never had so much trouble working with any language
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it's quite insane
15:10
unfortunately it's the best supported build system for c/c++
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I might one day make something like cargo for C/C++
15:10
or npm
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 15:10:43Z
wasnt there something planned?
15:10
i saw it in a talk once i think
15:11
But do you really want to invest a full project time to only do building and linking @Learath2 ? xd
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If I never ever have to mess with this again, sure
15:13
Something like cpm link --bundle luajit@v2.1 would be so useful
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Learath2: @heinrich5991 nice blogpost
thanks btw
15:13
@ChillerDragon yea, I wonder why you even starred an empty repo
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 15:14:01Z
xd
15:14
fan num1
15:14
not very smart fan that missed the actual post tho
15:14
be honest that star kept you going feelsamazingman
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I noticed the star before publishing
15:15
I actually wondered before clicking: is that myself that is automatically starring my own repo or might that be chillerdragon
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 15:15:39Z
xxxxD
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@heinrich5991 do you happen to know the history of these? how did cmake ever become popular with such an insanely hard to use configuration?
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 15:16:46Z
because configure.sh was worse
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it was the only thing that worked cross-platform in a sane way
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I think I had better time with autohell tbh
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(including windows)
15:17
autohell doesn't really work on windows
15:17
relies on fork() too much
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I was sure I'd see poettering in the credits of cmake
15:18
looks like something he might make
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my answer to that sounds like it could a flamewar
15:19
*could start
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I'm okay with bashing on poettering
15:20
Even ignoring his mess of a project, his behaviour is deplorable
15:20
If he'd contribute to ddnet I'd stop tbh
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 15:22:11Z
rq
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lol, it links compiles, then it doesn't work because of some macOS weirdness
15:52
Why is life so hard?
feelsbadman 1
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 15:59:01Z
wa mac weirdness btw?
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@Learath2 have you tried just installing the lib instead of compiling it from source?
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macOS revolutionises the OS space by allowing libs to bundle more then one architecture
16:01
@heinrich5991 on mac the only way to install it is from brew or by hand
16:01
I installed it from brew
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:01:15Z
brew is nice
16:01
i even have brew on linux lol
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brew is garbage, what is wrong with you
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:01:37Z
:/
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you trying to fuck up your distribution? ^^
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why would you have brew on linux where packages are properly maintained
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:01:51Z
xd
16:02
at least i dont have macports troll
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anyway I forced brew to compile from source, maybe that'll compile 64 bit properly
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:02:23Z
so u get a 32?
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the developer for brew was salty google didn't accept him
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:02:31Z
xxD
16:02
beste meme
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apparently because he couldn't reverse a linked list
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:02:49Z
he doesnt have to
16:02
he basically built google
16:02
😄
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you'd trust a programmer that doesn't know even the basics of algorithms with your systems package management?
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:03:31Z
hm
16:03
yes?
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If you can't remember the cool way you can just put everything into a stack in order then reinsert it in a linked list 😛
16:04
Compiling from source worked
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:04:32Z
hacker
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@heinrich5991 if the "cool tricks" allow you to cheat parts, it’s rather bad tho
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but you can do that today
16:09
we tried it out with an unlocked mouse
16:09
wheel
16:10
when kintafly was discovered, it also ment that parts could be done in ways mappers didn't anticipate
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can you consistently deepfly with a real person today?
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we haven't tried that
16:10
but it's probably possible by sending inputs much more often
16:10
I mean the input is clearly possible
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so u have to have a bot client
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we can try it with the unlocked scroll wheel
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i have one
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will eat something first
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I think an unlocked scroll wheel would indeed send enough input to have one per each tick
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@jao another example btw: in the past we had unreliable one tick unfreeze even with laser and automatic weapons
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it sendss more than one +fire per tick and bot detects hate it (@scrollwheel) (edited)
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people with good internet were able to do it
16:13
deen fixed it by sending input more often
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:13:41Z
wasnt it speedy?
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you could claim that it's a bot feature, but I think having game features reliable is better?
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:14:06Z
ya that sounds good.
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<food>
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i just feel like it could have some unwanted side effects that you didnt think of
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 16:16:35Z
yes for sure
16:16
we just need some pros test if you can do some crazy unfreezing
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website is down
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u dont need "pros" to figure out that u can cheat parts
16:57
with that hting
16:57
which is pretty bad imo
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@snail but you can cheat the parts today
16:59
the change makes it more visible
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dunno its pretty much limited to playing with dummy for it to be reliable
17:00
which is a pretty big downside (and yes it already sucks that its doable with dummy)
17:00
i.e heartcore prelast part
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are you talking about deepfly or hammer chains?
17:00
hammering in freeze consistently
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that's possible today
17:00
(the latter thing)
17:01
I'll check the former thing later this evening
17:01
my change just makes it triggerable more easily
17:01
I don't think a feature that works 100% of the time for some people and 25% of the time for people with other hardware/worse internet is a gameplay feature that we should keep that way
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(it also completely destroys some of the mechanical-timing skills that were doable)
17:02
i.e recovering from a freeze during hammerfly or double hammering after a hammerhit
17:02
as of now its actual timing
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no
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not with fire bound to scrollwheel
17:02
it's consistent
17:02
we tried it
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what do u mean
17:03
these hammers are easy with proper timing
17:03
its not frame perfect
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bind mousewheelup +fire
17:03
it is frame perfect
17:03
I checked the code
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with the patchit would be rly easy
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yes, for some people it is easy today
17:03
good connection, special binds, or special hardware
17:03
(or just good at timing, as you say)
17:04
(but for that, you need a good connection as well,I guess, with little jitter)
17:04
you can read the blog post for the technical description of how it works today, if you want
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i mean fixing a mechanic that involves skill to make it smoother for people with high pings/bad pc sounds pretty bad imo
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or just people without an unlocked scroll wheel
17:05
why should buying a different mouse make you better at teeworlds?
17:05
I don't think that frame-perfect input is a mechanic we should keep
17:05
like, in general
17:06
I liked what Im 'corneum said
17:06
it was fixed for other weapons by deen a few years ago
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does anyone actually do that scrollwheel thing
17:06
i only know it from vanilla
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the hardware thing will always be an issue
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not if we don't have frame-perfect input, @snail (edited)
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a 10$^mouse will always be less accurate than a highend one
17:07
a 200$ pc will always have less fps than a 2000$ one
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yes, but that's being defeatist
17:07
like seriously
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a keyboard with built in macros will always allow more stuff
17:07
i know
17:07
i dont like the current situation of the deepfly thing
17:08
but im not for bringing down the skill level in order to make it equal for everyone
17:08
especially if thats for people with bad pc/inet
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or people without an unlocked scroll wheel
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some poeple also have autofire mouse
17:09
so make it that if u hold click it fires as fast as possible in vanilla
17:09
to make it fair?
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people bind fire to scrollwheel in vanilla as well
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i think its bad to destroy some mechanics because newest hardwares have different built in functions
17:10
i would rather prevent the mousewheel thing by setting a maximum of inputs per frame (?) if thats possible
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we two seem to disagree on whether having frame-perfect gameplay mechanics is a good thing or not
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than the other way around
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see, if I want to design a game, I don't want to have a gameplay mechanic that requires the player to be accurate down to 0.02s
17:13
to me, this is like e.g. adding a jump that only works in 25% of the time
17:13
that example would just not be fun gameplay
17:13
you'd have to grind the map until all the jumps in the appropriate places work
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no because its not luck
17:14
u can train it
17:14
its an actual mechanical skill
17:14
its rewarding once u get to master it
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you say people get it consistently and not only like 50% of the time?
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if everybody could do it, it wouldnt feel any special
17:14
idk what they do
17:14
but when they fail its because they missed the itming
17:14
in fighting games there are a lot of frame perfect stuff
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yes
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and pros dont miss
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teeworlds is not a fighting game
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becasue they trained it
17:15
well that applies to any genre tho
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:15:23Z
"teeworlds is not a fighting game" ???
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have you seen fighting games?
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ddrace isnt pvp but that doesnt mean it shouldnt have any harder mechanics
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:15:42Z
teeworlds is a shooter
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yes
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if u made everything too easy it would just be boring
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not a fighting game
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:15:47Z
what is a fighting game?
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sth like smash bros I guess
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:16:10Z
so if the goal is to kill your enemy its not fighting? xd
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@ChillerDragon stop trolling..
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:16:24Z
i am not
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@snail yes, but I'm not advocating to remove all skill from the game
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would you be more fine if you'd have to press the fire button within 0.1 seconds instead of 0.02s?
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hm
17:17
okay
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idk how much of an impact it would have but yes leaving some skill behind that mechanic is good
17:17
imo
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:18:02Z
oh lol i did not know there is a difference between shooter and fighting
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@ChillerDragon nobo
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:40:04Z
u
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You should watch more games done quick
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ChillerDragon 2019-09-29 17:40:31Z
i am not interested in games other than tw lol
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 18:32:46Z
i agree with snail btw. I also find it annoying that deepfly works only with one tee as main properly but the fix heinrich suggested would affect the whole gameplay and a lot of Parts in a lot Maps would be done way more easily what results in affecting top ranks people trained hard for to be able to do this timed hammer. And its not a random hammer, its skill. And teeworlds is a game which requires skill and not just keyholding
f3 4
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which timed hammer are you talking about? does anyone deepfly with perfectly timed hammers without dummy?
18:48
I've never seen anyone perfectly time a hammer chain either
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 18:48:42Z
:)
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@snail 0.02 of a second is not something you can train for
18:49
someone could wave a magnet over your ethernet cable and it might be off
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this change will only affect deep tees or every tees ?
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frame perfect tricks are a thing in games where input latency is just negligible and usually very consistent
18:51
@Gwendal a frozen tee will have a guaranteed hammer when unfrozen
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 18:53:14Z
ofc u cant do it 100%, and?
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just by holding hammer so @Learath2 ? (edited)
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 18:53:44Z
if u "fix" that u make every deepfreeze part in teeworlds actually cheatable
18:53
@Gwendal exactly
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@Learath2 imo it is
18:54
many players do it consistently
18:54
and in fighting games aswell where u have to combo several frame perfect inputs in a row
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@snail notice that fighting games at the pro level are usually played on local networks where "input latency is negligible" AND "consistent"
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but they do that even online
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most of the time not even over a network but on the same hardware
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as long as u dont change ping every other day its easily trainable
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so for example
18:55
this situation will be 100% fixable
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@snail what is this trick we are talking about?
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by just holding hammer
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i guess any frame perfect move
18:56
but the specific one is hammering while frozen (and not in freeze)
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I see what Konsti means but those parts are actually cheatable right now as an unlocked mousewheel easily saturates the input buffer
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i.e in a hammerfly if the hammer gets frozen
18:56
when driver hammers him
18:56
to recover the hammer guy has to hammer at the same time
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I don't think that's frame perfect, I can do that consistently
18:57
I'm no where good enough
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heinrich says it is
18:57
according to code
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@heinrich5991 is it?
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Frame perfect mechanics just don't belong in a game that depends on network latency...
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If it is indeed frame perfect, you don't need very good of a connection tbh
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 19:03:38Z
lets make ddnet be a nobo game
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I could do that back in turkey with 90-100 ping and I can do it in italy with 20-30 ping
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@ezy stop swearing, my mother doesn't let me look at swear words
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this aint no christian srv
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 19:38:03Z
frick frock
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Mimic old behavior of having a respawn tick > 0 ticks after current tick. 2 ticks later is still "instant enough". The code below the change mentions strong spawning, so without deciphering it we give simply 2 extra ticks to make sure that it executes before spawning (2 instead of 1 so that it definitely executes for both primary and dummy).
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Telegun and jetpack in combination is pretty dumb in general, but lets just imagine a part where you have both. In such a case we should force disable ninjajetpack, because with ninjajetpack on you can move freely using the jetpack while dodging the teleport of the gun projectile.
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@Learath2 yes, it's frame perfect. and not even that, the frame you need to click in depends on whether you have a higher or lower client ID than the other tee
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I wonder how we all got so good at it
21:30
@heinrich5991 btw do we render one frame per tick?
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no
21:30
that's independent
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so it's not really frame perfect per se, but tick perfect 😛
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yes
21:31
in single-player games this coincides, therefore the terminology I guess?
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I was onboard with the change at first, but I think I agree more with the others that this kind of thing is something that you just need to learn
21:32
it's definitely not that tough to time even on a bad connection and making it easier just, idk devalues peoples time spent learning the timing?
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I'd guess it'd allow these people to think of much more fun tricks tbh
21:33
the people who are good at it
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deepfly being inconsistent though I don't really like that, maybe we could come up with a better fix for it?
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of course the fix could be separated for deep/non-deep
21:34
[11:33 PM] heinrich5991: I'd guess it'd allow these people to think of much more fun tricks tbh [11:33 PM] heinrich5991: the people who are good at it
what do you think about that?
21:34
I mean evolving gameplay a little is fun, isn't it?
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you don't really need to be good after the change though
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not for that exact trick
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hammerflies suddenly become very hard to fail
21:35
it could allow some nice new gameplay though
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people will be able to do crazier stuff
21:35
I mean I kinda feel the cat is out of the bag already by the server accepting these inputs
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[12:35 AM] heinrich5991: people will be able to do crazier stuff
yes but with a much lower barrier to entry
21:36
would it still constitute as "crazy" if it's just holding down the fire button?
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not this exact trick
21:36
but you can combine it with other stuff
21:37
e.g. hammerfly used to be crazy
21:37
then 0.6 came and it was a lot easier
21:37
but people still managed to get much more complicated tricks with it
21:37
and so there is more interesting stuff since then
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@heinrich5991 are you sure the hf save is exactly the same thing as a hammer in freeze?
21:37
I think it should be, but even though I can get the hf save like 80% of the time, I've never once in my life got the hammer while I'm in freeze
21:38
and I try every time
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I'm pretty sure
21:38
you can see the results of me studying the code in the blog post
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maybe it's the set rhythm of the hammerfly that helps time the hammers
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yup, maybe
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what did 0.6 do to make hammerflies easier?
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changed tee collision
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ah yes
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I don't think ddnet should be a never changing game
21:40
I think we'll just kill it with that…
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Well I don't disagree, but I also think it's bound to die, so my opinion in that regard is irrelevant
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but e.g. the hammerfly thing
21:41
I don't think pros were sad that their old hammerfly skills were done by less skilled people
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:41:47Z
oh ofc they would
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The way to convince people to accept that change would be to show them the possibilities I guess
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it just allowed new mechanics
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:42:07Z
no thats cheating
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I remember a couple people being salty about the hammerfly mechanics
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hm k
21:42
but in the long run, nobody would want the 0.5 mechanics back
21:42
they were just less fun
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but in hind-sight I think they just had their egos bruised, they didn't really hate the change itself
21:43
hindsight*
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:43:40Z
yeah apply an aim assist to make edgehooks easier too, people will like it but that doesnt mean its fair
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Konsti: edgehooks aren't inconsistent between machines or network connections
21:44
nor are they timed to 0.02th of a second
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also not easily done by stupidly pressing the button often enough
21:44
you actually have to aim
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:44:43Z
wtf
21:44
u dont spam hammer button for this
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but you can
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:44:58Z
its feeling
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that's the thing
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but you can, exactly 😛
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:45:09Z
u cant know nevause you are a nobo lmao
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thanks for your nice discussion style…
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feed enough fire inputs and it'll actually work a 100% of the time Konsti
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:45:47Z
sorry but what do you know about pro mechanics
21:46
then fix the spam input by mousewheel thing ez
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sorry but what do you know about how the code actually works?
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:46:22Z
nothing
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can you stop it too, learath2 😦
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@heinrich5991 if he gets to argue like a dickhead, I get to reciprocate
21:47
It's just unfair if he only gets to pick on people
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:47:32Z
i'm sorry heinrich
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yes. the usual way to deal with that would be moderators I guess
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Konsti: to fix the spam input, we'd need to discard some input
21:49
How would you know what to discard? a rate-limit?
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:49:55Z
how is it rate limited if using key but not if using mousewheel
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it's not rate limited using the key
21:50
only by how fast you can press it
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:50:35Z
yeah why does it work there
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I guess if you'd bind it to multiple keys, you could even reach it, but it would be impractical
21:50
because you don't click 50 times a second
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I mean we could probably just ban people that send a fire input every tick?
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:51:03Z
not ban
21:51
could be false positive right
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yes, but it'd kinda go against what deen did before
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but that still leaves the trick inconsistent as client id's also matter
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deen didn't patch out things like setting the "max mouse range" to 2 or so to get a perfect upward grenade
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:51:50Z
better than chaning the physics of the game and affect tons of ranks and parts
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this is not changing the physics of the game
21:52
the same thing is possible before
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:52:11Z
of the client then
21:52
u make it not only way more easier, you delete a complete kind of skill out of the game
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yes, but allow for more to be discovered
21:53
isn't that something you'd like?
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but how can u discover new things if it doesnt change the physic ;D
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:53:37Z
when do u check
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because it allows you to pull the trick reliably @Deleted User
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:53:44Z
that ddracers never want any changes
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then its just easier not new
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it does allow new things
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@Deleted User assume that you have a gameplay mechanic that works 25% of the time. you'd never get to see the tricks that need 5 of these in a row
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once you are able to do one thing consistently, you can expand on it @Deleted User
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even if you are fairly consistent, you wouldn't be able to pull off a couple of them in a row
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:54:55Z
its not a big deal to do it 5 times in a row when it works 100%
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its mostly about tryhard
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Which allows new interesting parts, which can be enough
21:55
however I also said before that yes it might not be interesting enough if it works for everyone at any skill level all the time
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:55:53Z
make a new mod for it then but dont affect all existing maps with those things
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but it's possible that some ranks were already done with it Konsti 😉
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:56:41Z
how
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To be perfectly honest, if we commit this right now, Konsti and a handful other will be pissed for like a week or max a month, then people will forget the change even happened
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:56:48Z
did u already apple this thing
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no
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look at how Wombat cried for a month about the double rocket change
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the best would be to collect all things that could possible currently be affected: hammer fly start from freeze, deepfly without dummy, hammers between freezes, and probs alot more
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:57:32Z
the rocket change was a thing that affected like nothing and still tons of people complained and nobody wanted a change
21:57
and u made 2 maps unfinishable
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Konsti: nobody as in you and wombat
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but the rocket change was something different
21:58
it wasnt a skill change
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:58:16Z
there were a lot more people but they dont talk to you because u do whatever u want anyway
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There is always a small amount of people resistant to any change
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this change is more like getting closer to bot client
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:58:47Z
ddnet is a bot client since dummy
21:58
source from dummy comes from z-client btw
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this does not make sense
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:59:02Z
@noby :troll:
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there can't be a cheat in the official client
21:59
by definition of a cheat I guess
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:59:25Z
there are still people playing vanilla
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well wow
21:59
thats stupid argumentation
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 21:59:44Z
deen always wanted to keep vanilla support
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@Deleted User call of duty has aim assist on consoles, is that a cheat?
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if it wasnt there before
21:59
yes
22:00
also consoles arent for gamers xD
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It could invalidate older ranks
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@Deleted User you dont need to use the ddnet client for the fix
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It definitely isn't a cheat as it's explicitly added by the developers of the game
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:00:54Z
its a cheat
22:00
for all maps
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so when ddnet adds a full aim assist u wouldnt call it a cheat?
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:01:07Z
because u make them easier
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bcs its official
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if it's intended by the game, like e.g. the one overwatch character
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@Deleted User it wouldn't be a cheat, but we'd never add it, because it'd remove all skill from the game
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sure, it's not a cheat
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:01:39Z
konsti dont be stupid, u now say this dummy is a cheat but when u abuse shit on a minecraft server its legit added by devs?
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this change is quite similar actually, it's just that the skill it removes is muuuch smaller then an aimbot
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:02:15Z
minecraft is a completely different game and for technical crafters its based on bugs
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:02:20Z
blablabla
22:02
invalid point
22:02
and vanilla client sucks
22:02
nobody should use it
22:02
for ddnet specially
22:02
so u talking shit
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:02:49Z
be serious please
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:02:52Z
i am very serious
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"The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating conduct a potentially subjective process" wikipedia and thats the problem
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:03:30Z
ddnet developes the client and the server, therefore ddnet decides whats cheating and what not
22:03
simple
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if tour de france allows dopping its still cheating
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:03:41Z
its not about the definition
22:03
its just unfair
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if it officially allows doping
22:03
no, it's not cheating anymore
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:03:49Z
also heinrich is not admin
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:03:52Z
you are the one who thinks dummy is unfair
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It's by definition not cheating
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:03:56Z
first time i hear it
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it is, bcs its still a question of ethics
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:04:06Z
ryozuki watch my player page and say that again
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:04:20Z
i say it 100 times
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Why does ethics come into the discussion even?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:04:26Z
2^64 times
22:04
ye
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bcs u say u want to relay on the definition of cheating
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:04:42Z
why ethics
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and thats what i gave u
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:04:47Z
ethics only regulate poor minds
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I could say I feel it's unethical to only let pro's recover from failed hammerflies
22:05
thus recovering from a failed hammerfly is cheating
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:05:07Z
wtf+#
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thus we must remove that aswell
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:05:15Z
its unethical that only pros can finish insane maps
22:05
lmaooo
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see now u are argumenting against ur own facts
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:05:28Z
Konsti hooking throught a corner is cheating in vanilla, since it is a vanilla bug
22:05
it is the foundation of ddnet tho
22:05
what do u say here
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I mean it's unfair that 0.001% of the players get to always survive failed flies
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:05:40Z
ryozuki thats my argument
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:05:45Z
no
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@Deleted User You are the one that wants to argue on ethics
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:05:48Z
u dont have any argument
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I'm saying if it doesn't break an explicit rule, it's not cheating
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you are the one that said, u want to stick to the definition of cheating
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:06:19Z
learath u just said that it is a skill
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so i stayed with it and gave u the contra argument
22:06
now u say weird stuff
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:06:32Z
what contra argument
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apparently there was a rate limit for inputs, but it was removed to make hammer-fly out of freeze possible (by spamming I suppose): 6735dce1af
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My definition of cheating doesn't rely on any subjective morality
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:06:50Z
cheating is defined by the server owner
22:06
i think its pretty simple to understand
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I think the sanest and simplest definition of cheating is "breaking a rule"
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:07:54Z
neither heinrich nor learath are server owners
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well who makes the rule in a community driven game?
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I just pointed out that if you bring in subjective reasoning and morality into it, then I could similarly argue that this being possible at all is unfair to anyone that can't have it due to bad internet
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:08:34Z
oh noes i used dummy on ddnet, lets post it on twitter so that people that are moraly sided with me can report it to :DDD
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:08:39Z
why not just ask the community when trying to apply a change against their wantings
22:08
ryozuki i dont say dummy is a cheat but yeah keep going on that
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Konsti you aren't the community
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:09:11Z
of it improves the gameplay by not depending on network stability im sure most people will agree
22:09
if*
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:09:33Z
aim assist too improves gameplay
22:09
this change is unfair
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:09:45Z
for you
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:09:59Z
for all who trained skill
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:10:01Z
let the poor people with poor internet play in peace
22:10
stop being selfish
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but it's not unfair to people that don't live in europe? (edited)
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:10:18Z
yeah its not
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This is why bringing subjective things like "fairness" that is not well-defined into arguments is stupid
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:10:51Z
i cant play on chile server, thats unfair
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:11:03Z
ur lucky u live in germany
22:11
and u have a server there
22:11
some ppl dont live near one
22:11
have u ever considered it
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:11:21Z
everyone can advertise for a community
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You decide what's fair using your own moral compass
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:11:25Z
no
22:11
not everyone can donate 500€ like you
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fact is u are changing the "rules" to make things easier, u are cheating on the pros xD
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:11:37Z
u rly live in a bubble
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No rules are being changed @Deleted User
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:11:46Z
ur living in spain
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well then its cheating
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:11:53Z
i have no problems with my internet
22:11
but im thinking about other people
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bcs currently u can't just press hammer
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can we pls go back to moves that get affected by this change and discuss them?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:12:28Z
im lucky to have a good internet now, but i know the struggles of 1mb/s
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@Deleted User yes you can if you are fast and lucky enough
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thats something different tho
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:12:50Z
yeah lucky
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@Patiga anything involving a frozen tee getting hammered
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:12:56Z
or just get the feeling for the timing
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to be honest there is no point discussing this at all before fixing the deepfly issue
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okay, newest test results:
22:13
deepfly is also possible with scrollwheel
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:13:47Z
i see more and more peopling getting this hammer fine within the normal run
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it'll objectively make most all deepfly parts cheatable
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so I can do deepfly with a non-dummy
22:13
on ddnet
22:13
right now
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@heinrich5991 I guess what they want is some way to stop that instead of letting everyone do it
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in fact we don't know that they haven't been cheated, although we could try to get teehistorian involved for that
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:14:40Z
pretty much yeah
22:15
lmao
22:15
u always think teehistorian would exist since 2013 right
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I don't really see what the argument is except that we are "cheating" the pro's out of a move exclusive to them
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:15:38Z
test
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:15:40Z
luckily not, otherwise u could have find all my cheated ranks
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:15:58Z
ur so cool konsti
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:16:02Z
thx
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:16:15Z
Konsti we could also find u edating some tw egirls right
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:16:24Z
lmao no
22:16
u wont
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:16:28Z
e.e
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@Patiga it also kinda makes all deepfly parts cheatable
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can't ddnet just make a test server with that change
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they're "cheatable" like that today
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that would be the easiest way to get a feeling for the change
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@heinrich5991 yes but it requires hardware or software mods
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:17:13Z
whats wrong with being cheatable now, people will just make new ranks
22:17
and it will settle on that
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unlocked scroll wheels are not a hardware mod
22:17
they're common
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:17:29Z
its like when on mario they find a super weird bug and they improve time
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or at least not rare
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well it's special hardware required
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:17:34Z
everyone else doesi t then
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yes
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:17:59Z
ppls could just auto hot key
22:18
or whathever
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yea, but that can go into cheating territory
22:18
not all gaming communities approve of that
22:18
however I have not heard of people calling scroll wheel cheating methods
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if every pro has to cheat to get a better time right now, why not just implement it in the client in a sane way?
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not even the client, the server
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:02Z
Konsti xd
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:07Z
mechanics =| cheat
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:13Z
=|
22:19
so u want to OR equal
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:42Z
xd
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:43Z
xd
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:44Z
u
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:19:46Z
u
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@heinrich5991 maybe you can even get it just with a standard scrollwheel, it's enough for bunnyhopping in cs which I think is also a couple frames at most
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:20:02Z
!help
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I can try it without unlocking, let's check
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:20:23Z
!ddnetpeak
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[quakenet] Nimda BOT 2019-09-29 22:20:23Z
Current players on DDNet : 129
22:20
Current DDNet peak : 1854 users online at 2018-08-15 21:58:02
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OMG
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:21:02Z
wtf
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it even works without unlocked scroll wheel
22:21
😄
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You can, can't you? 😄
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:21:05Z
heinrich5991 saying omg
22:21
😄
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Yeah guessed that
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i mean in the end we can also say some mouse manifacturers have macros in their drivers to allow fast clicking one button, and you could also build a mouse to have it, so yes, u can say nothing is cheating
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:21:15Z
Konsti whats going on
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at this point
22:21
just merge it
22:21
😛
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:21:39Z
u got overexcited
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ye
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merge it
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:21:49Z
lets think it better
22:21
xD
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not immediately merge it obv
22:21
test it first
22:22
but still
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well it's officially possible for anyone to cheat any deepfreeze part, just by doing bind mwheelup +fire;
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i want to see you aiming and moving the mouse wheel
22:22
the whole time
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btw heinrich, i didnt find any answer to my question: Are all bugs with the new stoppers fixed? Could you add them to 0.7?
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:22:47Z
new stoppers mwat
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@Deleted User you can at the very least fly directly up
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bind mousewheelup +fire;
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:23:22Z
!botstats
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[quakenet] Nimda BOT 2019-09-29 22:23:22Z
Uptime: 6 hours, 44 minutes and 42 seconds. Memory: 2.39 MB (2.54 MB max). SQL: 1694 queries total (0.07 q/s). Jobs: 0 (0 max). Timers: 7. Servers: 2, Channels: 3, Users: 24.
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so no need to merge it right
22:23
it already is possible 😄
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but then it'll be possible in sane way
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@heinrich5991 another feasible change would be to drop some input if people are spamming it?
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see, same argument
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:23:54Z
Konsti whats the cmd for that
22:23
i forgot
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as merging it
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:02Z
!slap
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:08Z
!slap Konsti
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:10Z
xD
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:11Z
oh
22:24
u got hexchat
22:24
nobo
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@heinrich5991 ?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:17Z
weechat best
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:17Z
u
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:22Z
let me search my scripts
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:24:28Z
just click on my name
22:24
and press slap
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@Deleted User weren't you the one that said it allows cheating because we are changing the rules?
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it still does
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Turns out we aren't even changing anything from the status quo
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currently u cant just hold mouse click
22:25
so whats ur arugment again?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:25:39Z
Konsti slap me
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@Deleted User boi i dont want a game where everyone kills their mousewheels, thats no fun at all o.o
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@fokkonaut I'm not sure if I have fun porting every change to 0.7 tbh 😛
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:25:51Z
HAX
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:25:52Z
im not using hexchat i told u
22:25
ez
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still no arugment @Patiga
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I don't fell like replying to this circular argument anymore
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where is that an argument?
22:26
bring objective arguments
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:26:20Z
Konsti hehe mine is better
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instead of your subjective ones
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@heinrich5991 at least this one, its a quite big one, dont wanna mess it up. Could you do it?
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:26:41Z
slap harder
22:26
:troll:
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@fokkonaut have you tried whether a simple cherry-pick works?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:26:58Z
:konsti:
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I am not at home
22:27
Cant do that right now
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:27:18Z
lets forget about 0.7
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btw @Learath2 i never said im against it, i just want to clearify what is changing, and that its not a simple change
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:27:22Z
lets release on steam
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lets forget about ryozuki
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[quakenet] heinrich5991 BOT 2019-09-29 22:27:32Z
Ryozuki: I'd be in for that
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:27:36Z
yes
22:27
it would bring new players
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release ddnet?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:27:42Z
more joy
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this change allows cheating -> I say it's not cheating -> you bring up some subjective "cheating" -> I point out that subjectively the entire thing even being possible could be classified as cheating -> you say changing the rules itself is cheating -> I say it doesn't even change the status quo -> back to the beginning
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that was just ur arugment with cheating
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this won't end and I hope to sleep tonight
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i even said its a question of what the community accepts
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:28:39Z
Learath2 sleep 4 the weak
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interested in me rephrasing the argument, @Deleted User ?
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go ahead
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:29:25Z
Konsti ah u using webchat
22:29
arent you on linux? use a proper client like a real gnu/linux user
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I bet Konsti is a mirc user
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:30:15Z
he is using web irc
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@Deleted User so the argument goes like this: it is currently possible to do this mechanic on a normal scroll wheel. even I can do that. as konsti attested, I'm not a particular pro player. the thing the change does is allowing this with something else than a scroll wheel
22:30
the game mechanics aren't affected by that, only whether the player uses the scroll wheel or another key to do the input
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and still u need ur mouse wheel
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:31:01Z
we the devil for expecting u to have a mouse wheel
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its just a question of if we want to make it so much easier
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yes. allowing "jump" to be bound to your "mike mute" button, wouldn't be a gameplay change either
22:31
it's not hard
22:31
try it
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yes
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wanna go on a server?
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i believe u
22:31
but u cant just press the key
22:31
so there is a difference
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:31:54Z
:p
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yes. but we call it so small that it doesn't matter. like binding "jump" to the "mute mike" button
22:32
that's also a difference
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besides I got baited by "[1:22 AM] Jupstar ✪: i want to see you aiming and moving the mouse wheel", just like with bunny hopping you only need to turn the mouse wheel for a small interval of time
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but a very small one
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:14Z
nah, i think ill get away from debian again
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yeah, but for ur argument u dont need to change the server
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:23Z
go to arch
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thats the difference
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:37Z
yeah, i had arch some months ago
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:38Z
Konsti i maintain ddnet on arch xD
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bcs its no gameplay changer
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:41Z
was good
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@Deleted User I can do this chagne client side as well if you want
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:44Z
i mean amazing
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it also works
22:32
but it's coded more nicely on the server
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thats the same thing actually
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:32:55Z
i got arch on lvm2 on luks
22:33
so nsa can only get into my pc beating me to death
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its curretnly also possible without changing the client
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:33:37Z
Ryozuki: do you have your root encrypted?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:33:44Z
everything less boot
22:33
i was 2 lazy for that
22:33
but its possible
22:33
its not like it leaks anything
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:34:00Z
i have a 64 char crypt key, so if police steal my SSD they gonna get nothing
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not really. you have to have some kind of unencrypted boot stu b
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:34:07Z
Konsti they can beat u
22:34
and im sure u would tell
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:34:18Z
im living in germany
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:34:19Z
there is a xkcd
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as i said, im not against it, idc about ddrace so much since i mostly play gores but its a change that makes things easier, and you should accept getting positive and negative feedback, bcs it deffs removes some kind of skill
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:34:28Z
Ryozuki: I guess they could always knock you out and dip your entire computer in liquid nitrogen before taking it away
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:34:34Z
Konsti im sure if what u had is of national security they wouldnt care
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no, it doesn't
22:34
I can do it easily
22:34
without training
22:34
that's not "skill" you're talking about
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but do that in mid race while aiming
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no problem
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@Deleted User whats your ingame name?
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see learath2's response
22:35
bunny hoppers need to do that
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@fokkonaut keks
22:35
i know they do that too, but that doesnt mean that valve just makes it easy
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:35:46Z
Konsti u should use a proper irc client and OTR
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:35:55Z
lmao xD
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valve limited the speed gained by bunnyhopping
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:36:09Z
Off-the-Record Messaging (OTR) is a cryptographic protocol that provides encryption for instant messaging conversations. OTR uses a combination of AES symmetric-key algorithm with 128 bits key length, the Diffie–Hellman key exchange with 1536 bits group size, and the SHA-1 ...
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 22:36:11Z
i would just talk myself out of it
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:36:15Z
xd
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@Learath2 yeah but why dont they just make the first hopp easy as fuck
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and they added a ridiculous amount of quadratic drag
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so not only pros can do it xD
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:36:42Z
Learath2 not rly
22:36
Learath2 people now speedrun half life 2 on new engine backwards
22:36
cuz its not limited backwards
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Oh yeah I saw that
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:37:43Z
and half life 2 is broken anyway
22:37
out of bounds stuff
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it was not only limited, each jump you gained your own speed on top since that was supposed to fix it (well that attempt worked for forwards hopping), tho backwards hopping was fixed a long time ago
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@Deleted User they made sure being even amazing at bunny hopping doesn't matter anymore
22:39
But even from the very beginning I admitted this can be fixed with punishing the player
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well i cant say how hard it is aiming and mouse wheeling todo that jump bcs i rarely play that game, tho its probs harder then holding space while aiming xD
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You don't have to roll the mousewheel around like crazy
22:40
you only need to roll it during contact time
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yeah but then they could just implement a "rejump" function if all this doesnt matter
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they could and it wouldn't matter too much as everyone would be given the same function
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:41:19Z
Traceback (most recent call last):
22:41
File "<string>", line 4, in script_python_eval
22:41
File "<string>", line 1
22:41
print([x**2 for x in [2,3,4,5])
22:41
^
22:41
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
22:41
ups
22:41
xd
22:41
[4, 9, 16, 25]
22:41
ez
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:41:53Z
Why would you do this to us?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:41:59Z
im bored
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well and there comes my sentence into play, where the real question is, does the community want it, bcs u will obtain negative and positive feedback
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:42:11Z
and u knwo this convo wont end anywere
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:42:21Z
map(lambda x: x**2, [2, 3, 4, 5]) better
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:42:33Z
what no
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if all pro players from csgo would shittalk it, valve probs would rethink it xD
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:42:39Z
list comprenhension is beutiful
22:42
and u should use it
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I'd guess a similar vocal amount of people wanted the bunnyhop back in cs:go ^^
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:43:01Z
I wonder why python stream functions are implemented in such an ugly way :(
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:43:18Z
heinrich5991 bunnyhop on csgo affects competitive matchmaking i think
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@heinrich5991 yeah i agree, but that again is a physic change
22:43
like the nade thing
22:43
one is input other the game itself
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yes
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:43:55Z
[2, 3, 4, 5].map would look so much more beautiful
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i know this topic is too subjective too discuss
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:44:06Z
also the same thing with len()...
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I feel like with your definitions, it would be too hard to discuss whether 1 + 1 = 2
22:44
😛
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no
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what axioms are we talking about?
22:44
what is 1, +, =, 2?
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about what should stay skill and what not
22:44
the other thing is deterministic things
22:45
ofc i can program a bot helping me with everything
22:45
doesnt change some axioms
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:45:17Z
this change is by my (and I think heinrich's) definition of physics not something about the physics of the game
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i never said that
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:46:05Z
good u come to irc side, discord bad
22:46
totally not related with me being banned
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:46:30Z
Ryozuki: have you tried being nice to people?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:46:36Z
Learath2 its tough
22:46
:p
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[12:53 AM] Jupstar ✪: but how can u discover new things if it doesnt change the physic ;D
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see the sentence above
22:47
u wont discover new things in that terms
22:47
u will just make it more easy
22:47
even konsti said that xD
22:47
its possible so its just a matter of tryhard
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@Deleted User wanna make a bet?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:47:57Z
why not make it easier
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@heinrich5991 wait
22:48
dont say anything
22:48
my bet is most dont care
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5€ we will discover a new gameplay mechanic after this change
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:48:18Z
only crybabies like Konsti complain cuz they want to be special
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winner donates 5€ to ddnet
22:48
*loser
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@heinrich5991 but what is a new gameplay mechanic?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:48:36Z
ddnet is not accepting donations right now :p
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if its possible right now already
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I mean it's not that hard to imagine a new part that could use this mechanic
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@Deleted User something that's not known today
22:48
like kintafly was discovered
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mhh
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or the hammer through freeze
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:49:02Z
Learath2 lot of tees in freeze, one outside hammers the first in the row the other hammers the other
22:49
this in one line
22:49
like a domino
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in what time frame
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:49:09Z
i can see it
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@Deleted User one month after the fix
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bcs in the end i could say someone would have discovered anyway xD
22:49
ah
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:49:31Z
if thats how i understood it
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:49:36Z
Ryozuki: and that's the most obvious
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:49:41Z
ez
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the question is, are u now actively searching for it xD
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no, I won't search for it or encourage others except by them having read our conversation
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:50:09Z
hello others
22:50
i encourage you
22:50
to search
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and how can we know noone has discovered it yet? XD
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:50:31Z
good lurker on irc logs i know ur there
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because it gets popularized
22:50
like kinta
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:50:45Z
I'm more concerned about all the current deepfreeze parts thoaugh
22:50
though*
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so u mean a useful new mechanic?
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yes
22:50
useful for finishing maps
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:01Z
even if not useful
22:51
like towers
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:03Z
how will the knowledge of the mousewheel thing affect those maps?
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:04Z
it gets popular
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yeah well t0 tricks are obvious
22:51
so no, i wont bet heinrich
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:30Z
we need to decide whether this thing is allowed at all or not, fast before people start making ranks with them
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:32Z
most stuff comes from t0
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5 players on a tower
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@Deleted User so you agree that new tricks will be discovered?
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and u can easily skip any freeze size
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:43Z
well I guess we could look for them in teehistorian
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:51:59Z
Learath2 konsti complainig a lot now but im sure he will be the first to search for new stuff
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@heinrich5991 i agree that u can easily make a 64 player tower to skip a 62 tile freeze
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:52:03Z
like a excited little kid
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or something like that
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ok, let's say except for spamming tees
22:52
is that fine by you?
22:52
like having a regular amount of tees, 2-4
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:52:34Z
Ryozuki: I think he'll genuinely be a little saddened
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[quakenet] Ryozuki BOT 2019-09-29 22:52:42Z
nah
22:52
he will ofc speak u did wrong omg
22:52
but he continues to play
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:53:14Z
If we leave this in without merging the patch tho, I'm expecting konsti to use his mousewheel a lot :P
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yes
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@heinrich5991 the problem is, even with 4 tees that are able to hammer simmultaniously is already a huge difference, ofc it will change the game by alot
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so you agree
22:53
nice
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yes
22:53
i agree that it makes these things easier
22:53
but not that its impossible now
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:54:38Z
they are only possible in the light of the mousewheel trick
22:55
even though the hammer from freeze is possible, it's very hard to time
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has the hammer no cooldown at all?
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[quakenet] Learath2 BOT 2019-09-29 22:55:57Z
I haven't really seen anyone pull it off with any level of consistency except for situations involving hammerflies
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i honsetly wonder if that mouse wheel technique is a 100% garantuee
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we tried it
22:56
yes
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well yeah makes sense
22:57
since the cooldown of hammer probs always short enough
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hammer only cools down after it hits
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yeah
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you don't get cooldown on hammer while you're frozen
22:57
no, that's not true
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hammer only gets a longer cooldown if you hit
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so you can hammer instant whole time?
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you still get small cooldown if you don't hit
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oh, I meant to write if it fired, not if it hit
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ah
22:58
you get a longer cooldown if you actually hit btw 😉
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ah, nice to know 😛
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So the only real question that remains is whether we want to allow this behaviour or not. Knowing it changes a lot of deepfreeze parts currently ingame
23:21
If we allow it I think we should merge this patch, if we don't then we should create a patch that drops/rate-limits this kind of input
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along with me not wanting to fix it, I have a feeling that fixing it would probably be hard and need heuristics, possibly leading to valid input being dropped
23:23
a client-side fix would be the most likely one, i.e. not allowing +fire on mousewheel
23:23
only enforcing the rate limit for older clients
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I don't really see a nice way to know what input is disallowed and what exactly to drop
23:24
e.g. do we drop the entire block? do we drop every other one? do we drop them randomly?
23:25
maybe we could only allow the hammer input to be in a small window which wouldn't completely remove the skill requirement, but it'd still allow the deepfly without dummy
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I feel like people would still bind it to the scroll wheel
23:26
vanilla people actually do that btw
23:26
to fire the gun as fast as possible
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fuck those people
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I mean it'll be the first thing I do when I get home
23:28
@heinrich5991 or we could just leave it as is, the mouse wheel will make this much more consistent for everyone if not a 100%
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yes, but I'd prefer it on a non-mousewheel
23:28
I don't like having to have special binds to play the game
23:28
(e.g. I was very annoyed by the deepfly bind)
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Yeah I thought we should patch that thing out the second I heard about it
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[quakenet] Konsti BOT 2019-09-29 23:36:31Z
lmao jao contructive af
23:36
constructive*
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