DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2018-07-22 00:00:00Z and 2018-07-23 00:00:00Z

[quakenet] <asasier> feeling powerful, eh?, you feel so powerful with your admin/mod/dev powers... but i am going to help everyone who was humiliated in ddnet... DoS for ddnet EVERY SINGLE DAY BITCHES, STOP ME IF YOU CAN, LET'S SEE WHO GIVES UP FIRST!!

08:09

[quakenet] <asasier> I AM CIDER BITCHES

08:10

[quakenet] <asasier> REMEMBER MY NAME LITTLE BITCHES

08:11

[quakenet] <asasier> AND NEXT YEAR I WILL HAVE MUCH MORE SPOOFING CAPACITY

08:12

[quakenet] <asasier> GET READY!!!

08:13

[quakenet] <asasier> THE TIME WHERE YOU ABUSED YOUR POWERS WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES IS OVER!!

08:14

[quakenet] <asasier> IT IS OVER!!! MOTHERFUCKERS!!

08:14

[quakenet] <asasier> THE COMMUNITY OWNS DDNET, NOT THE FUCKING STAFF

whos this cunt

[quakenet] <asasier> CIDER!!!!

why so angry man

[quakenet] <asasier> I AM CIDER

08:14

[quakenet] <asasier> BITCH

3

pls no dos

[quakenet] <asasier> I AM THE ROBIN HOOD OF THE HUMILIATED ON DDNET

08:16

[quakenet] <asasier> REMEMBER ME, I WILL MAKE YOU PAY EVERY TEAR EVERY ABUSED PLAYED DROPPED

08:16

[quakenet] <asasier> PLAYER*

i wouldnt recommend publicly breaking the law like this either it might come back to hurt u

08:16

ddosing is like super illegal everywhere i think

[quakenet] <asasier> -.-

08:16

[quakenet] <asasier> BITCH, YOU KNOW WHO I AM?

yes

08:16

and u know me

[quakenet] <asasier> NO YOU DON'T

u jus told me

[quakenet] <asasier> YOU KNOW FAKE CIDER

08:17

[quakenet] <asasier> I AM THE REAL CIDER

lol what

08:17

theres a fake cider?

[quakenet] <asasier> YES

thonkery

08:17

does the real one have discord?

[quakenet] <asasier> NO

interesting

08:18

ive talked to like three different accounts at least who claim to be cider

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> "I AM THE ROBIN HOOD OF THE HUMILIATED ON DDNET" rofl

feelsamazingman

2

08:28

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> go ask people, tell them you are the ddoser, you will see how many people support you xD

08:29

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> you so blind

08:29

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> get out of your bubble

i mean i agree that ddnet doesnt always handle everything in the best way but i dont see how ddosing is supposed to help

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> actually dosing only annoys players

08:30

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> they never related dosing with complaining about staff

08:30

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> its ridiculous

08:31

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> he is just a kid with attention problems, probably his mother left him in the street

how do we know which ones even real

08:31

the discord cider seemed more convincing to me

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> both ended up using caps

08:32

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> both are ridiculous

afaik the "real" one was banned here for posting nudes? lol

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> no, he left

who got banned for that then

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> i dont remember

[8:03 PM] BOTDDNet:

Canis Lupus#2200 just left the server :mmm: [8:04 PM] jao: ^banned for posting nudes

08:33

someone told me that was him

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> "The Psychic x3#9694 just left the server "

08:33

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> it was this one

08:33

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> or maybe both

i know him too

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> who knows

he even played on my fng server a few times and never caused trouble

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> well from your messages you can see he hates ddnet

if its the same person yeah

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> he also went full retard saying "you have complex of superiority for having dev role"

wut, i got dev role for adding fng entities to ddnet, means absolutely nothing

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> i mean, he is obvious blind of his envy against ddnet, why wouldn't he be envy of somemone having a role he doesn't have, and he also finds identified with

08:38

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> he was all day saying he will code more tools

08:38

[quakenet] <AmuCookie> I think he is more an attention seeker

08:39

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> with money

08:39

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> he says he pays 500â‚¬ for the spoofing sv

i think im going to not make any more judgements until we know whos actually him and who (if anyone) are trolls pretending to be him

the guy banned for nudes was him

08:40

the guy that left too

[quakenet] <Ryozuki> if we could just get rid of this kid we would have some no-ddos time maybe

huh weird hes always been nice to me

people have good and bad sides

@Ryozuki i'm not sure he pays that much, I only know from him that he earns money by selling his scripts and tools, but that was a long time ago, maybe he still does that. The problem also is that cider could stay more than 1 month and attack everytime, that's not a problem for him, he's simply a nolife

nice troll i have the real one on discord but apparently now he doesnt have discord

14:44

troll

14:48

[quakenet] <asasier> THE COMMUNITY OWNS DDNET, NOT THE FUCKING STAFF this is not rly right but whats right is in my eyes i never see ddnet listening to the community

14:49

they just let other people discuss with them and then they will ignore at least i can say that from my experiences

there other other smaller communities like kog community who literally have discord votes for every change they want to do on blocker a famous blocker map was changed by admins because it was crowded but later they listened to a lot of individual people changing the map back to the crowded version if-city literally has a suggestions chat in their discord noby himself takes good suggestions and implements them on his mod and idk about the other mods so why is literally the community with the biggest staff the guys who just dont give a fuck at all?

15:05

btw the mod on blocker is basicly 50% just the community suggesting things so far

15:06

the only thing ddnet is ahead is u can call a moderator in the discord or with /modhelp and im not sure if this works but when it worked i used it in the night like 1-2am and someone cam 30 mins later. wow

15:07

i bet this will get ignored for some reason or even better i will get banned from discord because this is not perfectly 100% developer-related

give some examples please

the other day before the discussion with this ai guy that didnt understand what an ai is i wanted ddnet to make changes on other mods like fng and blocker when it comes to the botters because literally its full of botters

15:10

so then the discussion with ai came up

15:11

and after the discussion noby copied my message and pasted it again

that's not "not listening to the community", that's simply over reading it/forgeting about it/not having the time to deal with minor stuff

congratulations

15:12

this is not a 1 person staff mod

15:12

im sure noby himself pays more attention than all the people that are only with some role together

fng has like 2 mods

without noby xd

so what is your argument

yes those mods suck then

see, because "community" discusses like this, we don't "listen" to them (edited)

i mean this guy literally decided to do a tournament on ddnet fng and not on noby fng so he can bot

15:14

shootxen or whatever

i didnt read the context yet but theres 3 mods on ddnet fng right? nohack2win me and fumoffu

15:15

and lol yes botting used to be a big problem on fng

15:15

idk if xen was the one but in general

since ur hosting other mods and not just ddrace u should put some effort into those aswell

15:15

moderators cant fix everything

but that's something the fng community has to do, the fault is not at us. you need volunteers from fng that want to help

one of the ddnet admins told me they dont really care about fng but its inactive enough to where i dont think theres a problem there

15:16

i think ezy is talking about the other mods

15:16

like ddnet blocker server

ddnet as a whole is the fng ddrace and blocker community

block servers are unmoderated since ever

so get ur 20 million devs and make a bot detection

15:17

its a wellknown fact that the most botters are on blocker servers

15:17

and if u dont want to then dont host it

15:18

i could make or get a botter client and just fullbot on fng or blocker

15:19

on fng ofc when theres no mod around

15:19

but this is not the main point this is just one example

15:19

i see people making suggestions every day

15:19

some are obviously useless but others arent

15:20

and u guys should just pay attention what the community has to say sometimes

15:20

at least more than now

there is hardly enough time the admins have to maintain ddnet idk where this "so get ur 20 million devs and make a bot detection" comes from xd

so why do they have admin role if they are almost inactive

it's not "not paying attention" there is just no time for it. I doubt any admin would decline doing something against botters in general

i see u on discord 24/7

15:21

ive never seen u offline

15:22

also i never said u guys have to have finished everything ive said tommorow

15:22

u guys still have devs even if their almost inactive

15:23

and if there will ever be a ddnet client version 11.2.2 then that shows that they can believe it or not still code things for ddnet

i do kindof agree with this, i still use ddnet 10.6 and think that the time spent updating the client could be used on better protecting ddnet from bots

what is negative about inactive admins? do they "block" further development? not really, it wouldn't matter if they are there or not

this was not my main point

15:24

this was just a sidestatement or whatever

so what is your point

i see u on discord 24/7 ive never seen u offline also i never said u guys have to have finished everything ive said tommorow u guys still have devs even if their almost inactive and if there will ever be a ddnet client version 11.2.2 then that shows that they can believe it or not still code things for ddnet

15:24

this

15:25

and yes there is nothing wrong with admins that are inactive i guess

why do you make it about me lol

ur right about that

15:25

also i never said u guys have to have finished everything ive said tommorow u guys still have devs even if their almost inactive and if there will ever be a ddnet client version 11.2.2 then that shows that they can believe it or not still code things for ddnet

15:25

happy?

but you kinda expect things to happen fast, you asked about the thing some days ago and already complain about it being ignored

troll

15:26

well now its definitly not being ignored anymore

15:26

and u said it was overread

15:26

no one will go back 5 days to check what ive written if i dont make them check right?

[10:20 AM] jao: there is hardly enough time the admins have to maintain ddnet idk where this "so get ur 20 million devs and make a bot detection" comes from xd i thought the point was that the devs could work against botting instead of doing changes like this

Image attachment

now the development of ddnet client is not a bad thing at all

fixing bugs seems not like a bad thing to me

but it shows that devs are infact active

15:30

or maybe not

15:30

but at least active enough to make changes

yes and maybe they waste all their free time on fixing the stuff

as a whole

it shows nothing else

15:30

I don't think something like bot detection can be done in a day

15:31

so don't judge if you don't know all the context

read what ive said u understood me in a way that u thought i wanted something done in 1 day but i corrected myself

15:32

and also this whole discussion is not against u put it is against all of staff

15:32

ima go watch yt now

[quakenet] <Learath2> Instead of ignoreing the guy you engaged with it?

15:35

[quakenet] <Learath2> he is just a deranged lunatic who is depressed, he'll get bored of it sooner or later

[quakenet] <Learath2> Showing our 10-20 min fixes and saying that is active is just meh, especiall coming from a developer like yourself @onby, you well know how much time went into the things in that change log you showed

i also have to say that, a good botter that knows coding will always find a way to evade the detection, and i think its harder to detect bots in ddrace than fng, so if the botter evades the detection, you already spent time on a detection that has been bypassed, and thus its like u did nothing. But instead, those client fixes remain forever and help a much wider audience

[quakenet] <Learath2> mine are all 10-20 lines, jupeyy was outside help that was outside help that just added ogl3, QingGo is outside help that fixed dummy issues for himself, heinrich5991's the only one doing significant work right now and he is working on http masters which will stop the serverinfo floods

@ezy also admin doesn't mean instantly that he is a developer, while it's true that deen made nearly all active coders that did enough work in the past admins

[quakenet] <Learath2> bot detection can not be done reliably except on edge cases, which we already detect </rant>

15:51

[quakenet] <Learath2> I'll go back to my math book now

hf

[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request opened: #47 add changelog for 11.2.1

[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request closed: #47 add changelog for 11.2.1

16:07

[ddnet-web:master] 1 new commit

24d36fd add changelog for 11.2.1 - Ryozuki

@Marcel what's your question?

[10:45 AM] BOTirclink: [quakenet] <Learath2> Showing our 10-20 min fixes and saying that is active is just meh yes but some of these things seem like way more than 10-20min of work and represent a bigger total amount of work than making a simple anti bot system

16:28

which is fine if ddnet puts priority on bug fixes

16:35

[10:46 AM] Ryozuki: i also have to say that, a good botter that knows coding will always find a way to evade the detection yes especially in an open source game its impossible to have 100% detection but the idea is that most commonly used bots arent written currently to evade detection so a system like this makes botting a smaller problem

strike that "open source"

i also have to say that, a good botter that knows coding will always find a way to evade the detection, and i think its harder to detect bots in ddrace than fng, so if the botter evades the detection, you already spent time on a detection that has been bypassed, and thus its like u did nothing. But instead, those client fixes remain forever and help a much wider audience not every botter has his own client that he can just update regularly a lot of botters have outdated clients that no one works on anymore. ofc there will always be that one botter that codes his own client but if the majority of botters get banned than that would already be a huge success wouldnt it?

16:37

oh

16:37

xd

16:37

noby xd

bot clients can be shared

16:38

currently, there's little demand for fixes against bot detection because there is none

yeah they do get shared

yes

16:39

wait, sorry, don't mention specifc bot client's names, please

16:39

there's this old, unupdated bot client

hm

yes

why not auto-ban version 708 to prevent that old un updated client from joining

I can trivially produce a version of that bot client that cannot be detected like that

noby this used to be ddnet

and other people can do that as well

theyre not going to ban one client id

sure there are many new bot clients but ud be surprised how many people simply just find another server

but you're not doing this on the biggest server network ^^

16:40

I guess people would have more incentive there

lol true but ur still getting rid of many of the players who only are botting because its easy

I think we should only do that once the protocol has changed enough so that the old bot client cnanot be trivially modified anymore

wont this make it so that anyone with any old client couldnt use it?

16:42

there are many players who prefer vanilla/ddnet version<=9 because of the mouse

whats different about the mouse

afk for a bit, sorry :/

it uses sdl instead of sdl2 so it "feels" different

sdl2 changed mouse a little

sensitivity?

i also noticed the change, but after a month i didnt notice anymore

im not sure exactly because i started playing with ddnet 10 but the older clients just feel different

16:43

try using vanilla client and ull see

the end of ddnet??

??

16:50

where

now

16:50

xD

why

idk

16:50

the channel feels dead and server down and stuff

DoS

ye

16:51

But why

GWseremePeepoLife

[quakenet] <Learath2> heinrich5991: why do you care that people say the 708 clients name? everyone knows what 708 is, and the community is pretty stale, people who bot always bot, people who don't don't. We don't get many new players that can be influenced either

17:00

[quakenet] <Learath2> I do agree that banning it changes pretty much nothing as someone will just modify it and share it again

this ^ except there two most common kinds of botters are: people who will never stop trying to cheat and make new cheats, and people who downloaded a bot client online and use it until they cant

17:03

i think the client version autokick is a decent solution towards the second group

also the bot client being known at least lets you spot botters on a glance

[quakenet] <Learath2> they'll just download it again :P

while the new version would have a up-to-date ddnet id which you could never spot

i mean they can still use it but whats the point of using a client that most servers wont let u connect with

[quakenet] <Learath2> @onby they'll just get a new version of it

17:04

[quakenet] <Learath2> I'm sure some of the asshats will even bother setting up a cute website for the new client with the modified version

new teeworlds bots are comparatively alot harder to find than old ones

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue closed: #1217 dump_binds

ehhm that doesnt matter

17:04

the domain is still listed pretty up

17:05

and they dont need to cyhange name

[quakenet] <Learath2> also we ban it and we lose a way to track them around

true but is anything currently done with version number info

17:06

like is it saved anywhere

[quakenet] <Learath2> It's stored in teehistorian records

oh cool

17:07

does that make it easy to quickly see which versions are most common

[quakenet] <Learath2> anyways, I don't really know if it's a good idea to let it be or just ban, but I feel it changes nothing really

17:08

[quakenet] <Learath2> @onby not that easy, as teehistorian files aren't plaintext, tools are needed to analyze them

oh and even if it doesnt actually change anything for the average player it still seems better for sending the message that ddnet is against botting

[quakenet] <Learath2> botting is such an overblown issue, not many people bot to cheat in a detectable way on ddnet

17:14

[quakenet] <Learath2> aimbots aren't that useful, replay bots we keep an eye on

17:16

[quakenet] <Learath2> hookspam isn't useful, towerbots are kinda useful but no way to detect them, edgebots are also undetectable

why are they undetectable

[quakenet] <Learath2> which one?

edge and tower

[quakenet] <Learath2> edges are already hard to do, which means any edge looks kinda perfect, so how do you seperate perfect(bot) from kinda perfect(human)

17:20

[quakenet] <Learath2> when the difference is too small heuristic approaches become unfeasible aswell

17:21

[quakenet] <Learath2> tower we could probably detect with huge overhead on the serverside, but is ruining performance worth it? how tight of a balance on top of a tee is inhuman?

stuff like that doesnt ruin performance considering how it does so much stuff like polling for map every tick, a couple extra checks end up not mattering

17:22

and i think u cant tell from only one hook, u have to look for patterns across many of their hooks

[quakenet] <Learath2> we'd need to check a line above every tee and analyze the movement of every tee that hits the line for the past couple frames

and see if certain behaviors happen more often than u could reasonably expect from a human, flag the teehistorian data for someone to review

17:23

i think there would be other ways to do it

[quakenet] <Learath2> doing all of this after the fact on teehistorian data is viable, but otherwise tbh I don't see a good way of doing it

17:25

[quakenet] <Learath2> maybe input analysis might reveal badly coded balance bots

which at this point most of them are badly coded

[quakenet] <Learath2> but do corrections on lastcheck + rand()%10 and suddenly it doesn't look that regular

also im failing to see the difference between an edge (hook?) bot and a hook aim bot

[quakenet] <Learath2> I meant the ones that jump on edge always

oh

edgehook is always perfect

17:28

well

17:28

not always tho

17:28

u have some margin if the thee is really close to corner

but still i think based on how this type of bot is made that it might be detectable by looking at patterns across many of a player's jumps in a row

[quakenet] <Learath2> aimbots aren't an exact science either, you can only catch bad bots with all this stuff

no because many "good" bots at this point only focus on accuracy and looking humanlike to actual players

17:29

but the server has access to alot more info than players do

[quakenet] <Learath2> comparing movement input across many edges is also possible, but as said I don't think it's viable at runtime and isn't exact either

i have a system that checks mouse cursor position against all nearby tee positions at runtime and i profiled the code and it actually only uses a small % of the execution time

17:31

i cant imagine that the edge thing would require more

@noby have I asked whether you tested against botox's bot?

i tested one called teeworlds_botox2.exe as well as a couple other weird clients that seemed to have the same bot and it was detected after a few shots

17:52

im not sure if there are other versions

[quakenet] <Learath2> deen: do you have the process for setting up a new server documented somewhere?

I need help

22:39

The client won't accept my ack and keeps resending the same packet

22:40

Client sends ack 0

22:40

Server sequence is 1 and ack is also 1

22:41

After that the server is sending a packet with the ack number 1 in the header

22:41

But the client is still sending ack 0

is the client accepting the packet?

23:05

you can add debug messages in the client ^^

That's a good idea

Exported 288 message(s)