DDraceNetwork - developer

<nemo2> you guys have DOSing jackasses too?

<fstd> haven't ddos jackasses been an ongoing issue in ddnet for like years?

not just ddnet

09:01

teewoods is ddos game num1

09:03

lol fstd? aren't u dis super oldschool teewods dude with the picture of a tee with ❤ emotes and a shotgun i guess. I used it for my yt video which got claimed for copyright reasons because i was scammed xd

<fstd> aw :s

09:05

<fstd> yeah that's me

09:06

<fstd> pic unrelated http://penenen.de/twparticle.png

09:06

<deen> nemo2, fstd: yeah, lots of hosters threw us out following 10-100 gbit/s ddos attacks. still getting attacks now, but doesn't look so bad anymore, at least we're not taking down their entire data centers anymore

09:07

<deen> fstd: looks like fun, what are you doing?

09:07

<fstd> that pic is way old back in the blocker days; i was testing how far the player limit can be pushed

yo guiis does some1 know how to use boost -.- ?

09:08

im too knoop to include boost asio.hpp

<fstd> IIRC 256 was okay but with 512 the collosion code really started showing its O(n^2)

09:08

<deen> fstd: heh, I think I also tested up to 256 and it worked ok-ish, at least 1 core was not at 100% cpu yet

09:09

<deen> or maybe it was only 128

i think it was 128

09:09

i tried it too but ddnet clients didnt like it -.- was only working with vanilla clients

09:10

https://i.imgur.com/ki8gpPV.png

<deen> you have to link against the lib as well

09:10

<deen> not just include it

uhm

09:11

g++ -I %boost_path% src/*.cpp -c

09:11

thats my linker

09:11

it works with other boost files

<deen> some might be header only

boost/array.hpp works

<deen> but if the boost lib is not header-only, then you need to link as well

ah k

09:11

how? xd

<deen> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/more/getting_started/unix-variants.html#link-your-program-to-a-boost-library

ty

<deen> any reason for using boost?

i was suggested to use it

09:12

im trying to create a 2d multiplayer cross platform game

09:12

without graphics

<deen> I'd recommend just C++14 without boost

my plan was to use no libs or frameworks or engines or stuff

09:13

sounds great

09:13

but i failed xd and also ppl told me doing everything from scratch is hilariously over complicated

<deen> sure, but you learn a lot

sounds great

09:14

but how do i start i rly suck

<deen> have some data structure for the world with tiles, players, implement moving the player and interacting with these tiles (bumping, standing, jumping), make a way to display this into graphics/terminal output, think about what data to send over the network to synchronize states

the problem is i have no idea how to send data over the network and i cant find a cross platform solution

09:18

the web only told me non crossplatform and or stuff i didnt undertsand or was abel to compile

09:19

i had the plan just to send the position of the players as a first test. But idk how to start ._.

09:22

as far as i understood there is no c++ crossplatfrom networking stuff because unix and winsockets are different. And i have to work with #ifdefs i guess but do u know a nice place to learn this networking stuff?

<deen> work with ifdefs or use a networking lib

09:22

<deen> or wait for c++30 or something

xd

09:23

i thought boost is a networking lib

09:25

you recommended using plain c++ c: that sounds great beacause it was my plan. Well i keep trying to search sumsing in the web ...

<deen> ah, so that's why you wanted to use boost. yeah, they probably include networking

do u still recommand doing it with plain c++? (edited)

09:46

i just compiled my first networking code idk what it does but it compiled xd

use tw's system.c

it includes networking

ikr

09:50

but i dont want to steal lal

@Savander how do you feel about codeigniter?

i already stole the str_format func

09:50

xd

09:50

and tw networking is very twish i guess and its hard to understand ._.

09:51

but as i said i just did my helloworld networking so all fine i guess. going well so far

@ChillerDragon the stuff in system.c is not really twish, it's just C

ok maybe ill have a look at it agian if i failed my current code

heinrich5991

[ddnet/ddnet] Pull request closed: #865 Add `./configure` script

https://discord.gg/46KSmDp

what that group @Deleted User ?

deutsche gaming gruppe

oh

german gaming group

ok

1o1??

<nemo2> deen: yeah I really don't get the point of ddosing a volunteer free game

14:03

<nemo2> deen: some idiot did that to us, even boasted of buying the ddos

14:03

<nemo2> we were like. hell. pay us, we'll take our server down ourselves

14:04

<nemo2> it'll be more reliable

ok

14:04

iwer deutscher hier drin

ich

i cant play tw...

@ZimE iwann 1o1 alive-fng??

alive are noobs

14:05

RRT in hear

14:05

t

neeee das spiel ich nich

ok dann iwann mal ddrace oder so

lol

#developer is now #german feelsamazingman

2

ganau

xd

@nemo2 there Is a ddos Motivation for teeworlds Server hosters who want more players on their Server ----> ddos all Other servers Or for trolls who think its funny. But i don't understand who is ddosing servers for days. Its clearly not for fun. But i can't find the ddosers Server that fills up. As far as i know the most played block Servers are ddnet and rei and i dont think that ddnet ddoses rei and rei ddoses ddnet lul. So i have no clue what the morivation these days is

<nemo2> could be a power trip I guess

15:32

<nemo2> no way they could impact a large company

15:32

<nemo2> so they attack what they can

15:33

<nemo2> I guess if you have a few thousand fairly tech savvy individuals accessing your server there's bound to be a few assholes who react that way to some minor slight

._.

<nemo2> the dude who attacked us last time was annoyed that we kicked him off the server because he was deliberately sending messages that were screwing up the Qt frontend.

15:34

<nemo2> he was quite proud of his discovery and felt he should be allowed to randomly kill the lobby visitors at will

15:34

<nemo2> and tried to use threat of DDoS to force us to allow him onto the server

What Server ?

<nemo2> oh... the hedgewars one. sorry. that's where my experience is

15:35

<nemo2> he was using a ton of VPNs so for a while we had to restrict server to registered accounts â˜¹

15:35

<nemo2> he did in fact succeed in taking server down a couple of times, but I guess he got tired of paying for DDoSes

Hmmm

15:37

Lyfe Is struggle

come to the rust side, we got networking primitives in the std

<nemo2> oh. did you guys see kyren's awesome post on Chucklefish's new game ?

17:37

<nemo2> It's really a great AMA

17:38

<nemo2> https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/78bowa/hey_this_is_kyren_from_chucklefish_we_make_and/

Hey, this is kyren from Chucklefish, we make and publish cool video games. One of our two next projects is currently being written in rust, and I'd like to talk to you about it! • r/rust

Here's a little bit about Chucklefish if you're not familiar. So, one of our next projects is codenamed...

17:38

<nemo2> the haskell mittens thing was awesome. and the C++ float sort shocked me too

<ReiTW38> Hi people is there a way to migrate the networking part of the server from singlethread to multithreading?

17:57

<ReiTW38> I'm such bad for that :/

18:02

<heinrich5991> ReiTW38: is there a reason you want to do that?

18:03

<ReiTW38> yea, mostly against attacks

18:03

<heinrich5991> I don't think the network stuff is a bottle neck

18:03

<heinrich5991> mh

18:03

<ReiTW38> Well, singlethreading for tw is too bad, i think multithreading would help much

18:04

<ReiTW38> for networking*

18:07

<heinrich5991> you have observed 100% cpu usage I guess?

18:08

<ReiTW38> yeap

<nemo2> oh wow. server is single threaded??

<ReiTW38> normally, yes

19:02

<ReiTW38> :/, but we REALLY have to switch to multithreading

<heinrich5991> ReiTW38: not sure tbh

19:26

<ReiTW38> I'm quite sure o:, even the buffer

19:26

<heinrich5991> nemo2: what would you parallelize?

19:26

<nemo2> heinrich5991: how about game rooms?

19:26

<heinrich5991> each server is a "game room"

19:27

<heinrich5991> you don't have multiple of those on a single server

19:27

<nemo2> heinrich5991: uh. so when a game is started, that's a new server instance?

19:28

<heinrich5991> nemo2: everyone can start a server. the server host a game round. when the game round is over, it'll host the next game round

19:28

<heinrich5991> but note that game rounds aren't as special in teeworlds as they are in hedgewars

19:28

<heinrich5991> you just join the game at any time and leave it at any time

19:28

<nemo2> so... when I joined the network and several dozne rooms are listed

19:28

<nemo2> those are actually server instances

19:28

<nemo2> one server. one game.

19:29

<heinrich5991> yes

19:29

<nemo2> what is the thing that tracks those announcements then?

19:29

<heinrich5991> oh, the master server

19:29

<nemo2> ah

19:29

<heinrich5991> it just reports a list of IPs

19:29

<nemo2> no chat, no statistics, no info messages of any kind? that's all from servers?

19:30

<nemo2> but ok. in a model like that I can see why there's no point in threading

19:30

<heinrich5991> no global chat, no statistics, no info messages

19:31

<heinrich5991> it's kinda decentralized

19:37

<eeeee> more kinda worst of both worlds tho, in vanilla you still cant play when masters are down and there are spoofed responses and spam servers and clients' ips are exposed...

19:38

<heinrich5991> eeeee: we'll do https master server one day :)

19:39

<eeeee> better make sure it's REALLY switched to multithreading

19:42

<heinrich5991> ??!?

19:47

<nemo2> most web libs are threaded already

19:47

<nemo2> if you're doing an https master probably will get that as part of the package

19:47

<heinrich5991> in my PoC we just put a file for nginx to serve

19:48

<heinrich5991> I don't have to care about the https on the server side there ^^

19:50

<nemo2> sure why not

19:50

<nemo2> doubt it updates so often that static would be unreasonable

19:53

<heinrich5991> I was updating the file every second :D

19:53

<heinrich5991> or no, whenever sth changed

19:55

<heinrich5991> nemo2: the idea was to put cloudflare in front of our master server

19:55

<heinrich5991> in order to make DoSing it harder

19:56

<nemo2> heinrich5991: huh... they were only dosing the master? how odd

19:56

<nemo2> seems the natural approach would be to attack each of those poor weak subs

19:56

<nemo2> prioritising by number of players

19:56

<heinrich5991> no, they also attacked the master

19:56

<heinrich5991> :D

19:57

<heinrich5991> which made joining a new server pretty much impossible

19:57

<heinrich5991> not really fixed until now btw

19:58

<nemo2> so... in that decentralised model. how do players keep track of who they are playing with? is there a player db anywhere?

Only nicknames, without db

19:59

no register, no anything to autorize

19:59

authorize

<heinrich5991> no accounts

20:00

<heinrich5991> you just start the game and start playing

20:01

<nemo2> hm

20:02

<nemo2> could have them phone in to a registration server tho...

20:02

<nemo2> shrugs

20:02

<nemo2> faking identities seems oddly entertaining to some people

We had few big discussions about authentication tho

20:03

https://forum.ddnet.tw/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4979

<nemo2> another advantage would be statistics

20:04

<heinrich5991> for original TW, this was sth to avoid, according to the original dev

20:05

<nemo2> huh

20:05

<nemo2> dunno why

20:05

<nemo2> heinrich5991: anyway FWIW, since we are super ultra lazy, we just took the existing Drupal accounts, that people were already using for the website, and checked 'em from the game

20:05

<nemo2> heinrich5991: there's an itsy bitsy little connector unc0rr wrote that does that

20:05

<nemo2> it also has caching since it used to be website and game were on separate machines so it helped perf a bit

20:06

<heinrich5991> ah

20:06

<nemo2> people do appreciate it I think. It lets them exclude trolls more easily for example

20:07

<nemo2> one thing we never got around to implementing was hashed (24h rotation or whatever) IP banning - some poor folks get harassed by same person using guest accoutns. workaround for now is disallowing guest accounts

20:07

<nemo2> (from your room)

20:08

<nemo2> heinrich5991: oh... if you do end up doing something just as lazy as us, here's a cute thing we added to mariadb

20:08

<nemo2> https://hedgewars.org/download/Index.xml

20:09

<heinrich5991> ?

20:09

<nemo2> heinrich5991: http://www.unicode.org/Public/security/8.0.0/confusables.txt it's a fair chunk of this loaded in as a mariadb collation

20:09

<heinrich5991> what's that?

20:09

<nemo2> due to accoutn spoofing

20:09

<nemo2> scroll down

20:09

<nemo2> it's pretty nifty tho since it let us do drop-in anti-spoof to the existing db

20:09

<nemo2> would work on any mariadb/mysql

20:09

<heinrich5991> ah

20:09

<heinrich5991> we have this: https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/master/scripts/generate_confusables_data.py

ddnet/ddnet

ddnet - DDraceNetwork, a mod of Teeworlds

20:10

<nemo2> heinrich5991: so... you do have user account registration?

20:10

<heinrich5991> no, run on every single server ^^

20:10

<nemo2> oh...

20:10

<heinrich5991> it's still annoying if you have the same name twice on the same server

@irclink stop spam

<nemo2> ?

@Kyosuke they are devs

<heinrich5991> on the discord side, @irclink posts all the messages from the IRC chat

20:11

<nemo2> ah

@Savander so they cant stop talk right ?

<nemo2> same as here then

20:11

<nemo2> heinrich5991: so... this is not a dev channel?

20:11

<heinrich5991> it is the dev channel

it's dev channel

<nemo2> ok

you don't want to be a part

<nemo2> well tough for them then ðŸ˜�

leave

<heinrich5991> it is linked to #developer on the ddnet discord

20:11

<nemo2> oh haha

20:11

<nemo2> all the more reason to not be sympathetic

what's the point of this dumbass irc bot

oh yea i see ok sorry but it spam XD

then mute it?

20:12

You can do it easily

@Beefywhale @Kyosuke you can mute this channel

nah

right-click it on the left side

20:12

and click mute

I just think it's dumb

20:12

If people wanna see irc they can just join it

It's not dumb, since most devs sits on IRC

20:12

and this is official ddnet dicsord

<nemo2> heinrich5991: BTW, why is the ddnet dev channel not on freenode?

@heinrich5991 yea but if i wait 10 minutes i will have the email of "you missed a message from #developer "... how deactivate it ?

even if you mute it?

If you mute it, there's no message

20:13

only when someone mention you with @

<heinrich5991> nemo2: historical, because #teeworlds is on quakenet as well

20:13

<nemo2> ah

20:14

<heinrich5991> actually, using this nifty bot, we could migrate to freenode

20:14

<heinrich5991> :)

20:14

<nemo2>

yea... @Savander really ? i always receive it without mention... i go try again

Really, i have muted all channels

20:14

but not #developer

<heinrich5991> ^^

and i don't have any notifications

20:15

what's better with freenode? ^^

<nemo2> just most FOSS projects are on there these days

20:15

<Beefywhale> petetion to remove irclink bot top kek

20:15

<nemo2> apart from the gnome/mozilla affiliated ones

20:15

<heinrich5991> what nemo said

20:16

<heinrich5991> quakenet is gaming, but mostly proprietrary games

20:16

<Beefywhale> kek

right

20:16

good to know

20:16

I used IRC only for Teeworlds, tbh

<Beefywhale> oh shitttt my mask isnt on

20:16

<Beefywhale> rip my ip

too oldschool thing

<nemo2> I still use IRC a ton

20:17

<nemo2> I even use it to interact with Slack

20:17

<nemo2> since they thoughtfully include an IRC gateway

Loool

20:17

who even uses slack

<nemo2> ssh + tmux + irssi

Twitch.tv uses IRC for chat

<nemo2> quite a lot of people, but mostly I use it for playing Ingress

I used it to test chat bot :D:D

<nemo2> but yeah, I don't get the appeal of discord or slack frankly

20:17

<heinrich5991> nemo2: you're this guy: https://xkcd.com/1782/ :P

xkcd: Team Chat

20:18

<heinrich5991> but yea, just the next iteration of closed-source chat apps :(

20:18

<nemo2> heinrich5991: heh. yeah, well, the protocol has been around for ages, most everything supports it..

20:18

<heinrich5991> ^^

20:18

<nemo2> heinrich5991: but mostly it's due to FOSS

<nemo2> heinrich5991: moznet, gimpnet and freenode are keeping IRC active for me

For m,e things like discord are just another level of abstraction

<heinrich5991> I'm not on gimpnet

20:19

<nemo2> heinrich5991: I'm on it basically for gimp, or if I ever want to ask some gnome-related qeustion

20:19

<heinrich5991> I just join on-demand there

Like in programming, you can make library, then someone else will make another level of abstraction to use it, and over and over again

<nemo2> but I like doing art stuff and there's a lot of experienced artists on gimp

=== NPM

<heinrich5991> I'm on mozilla for rust ^^

20:19

<heinrich5991> ah

one package cause 150 packages to download

20:19

<nemo2> heinrich5991: I joined moznet back in.... '98 or so

20:20

<heinrich5991> I was a little child back then :P

20:20

<nemo2> but. yay rust!

20:20

<nemo2> heinrich5991: so was I. ok. a big child. ok. technically an adult

20:21

<nemo2> heinrich5991: anyway, if you guys do decide to add a centralised db, and it happens to be mariadb, that index file should be fairly drop-in

20:21

<nemo2> heinrich5991: MariaDB [hedgewars]> select uid,name from users where name = 'nerno';

20:21

<nemo2> | 1413 | nemo |

20:21

<heinrich5991> heh

20:21

<heinrich5991> nice

20:21

<heinrich5991> the classical rn = m :)

20:21

<nemo2> it's one of the easiest confusables to type

I don't hink, that we ever will have centralized db

<nemo2> well you have one for the forum

due to our friends from teeworlds :D:D

<nemo2> you could just plug the game into it

Ddnet has point system

20:23

now it's connected to nicknames, but if we will make accounts, then people could steal those points

20:23

in general, it's big deal at the moment to make all people happy

20:23

^^

<nemo2> oh... so you do have registration

nope

<nemo2> oh. points per server I bet

DDnet has centralized DB

<heinrich5991> no, actually global points on ddnet

for points

<nemo2> huh

but it's connected to nicknames

20:24

you can use whatever nickname you want

<heinrich5991> nemo2: https://ddnet.tw/players/nemo/

20:24

<nemo2> so... all you need to do is add a password to that and boom you have auth?

even those from top 10

20:25

It could be simple

20:25

But then, how we can verify

<nemo2> oh how nice. someone is earning points for me

20:25

<guenstig_werben> hey

if the guy is the right guy?

20:25

Hey

<heinrich5991> nemo2: well, as long as I have a vote in this, we'll never register nicknames

20:25

<heinrich5991> accounts is okayish

20:25

<guenstig_werben> @heinrich5991 you got 5 minutes of time?

20:25

<heinrich5991> but reserving nicks is not IMO

20:25

<nemo2> well, first come first served. prompt for pass on use of nick

20:25

<heinrich5991> guenstig_werben: sure

20:26

<nemo2> heinrich5991: huh. don't see what the big deal is, but whatev

20:26

<heinrich5991> nemo2: see all the big gaming networks today

20:26

<heinrich5991> they allow duplicate nicks :)

Yea, we though about UID, without nickname dependency

<nemo2> heinrich5991: dunno. I don't really use any big gaming networks

20:26

<nemo2> heinrich5991: but... it would not surprise me if there's a uid backing, so people get to know people in right context and with right history

20:26

<nemo2> Ingress still requires uniqueness, only one I'm familiar with

Generally, the problem is that we don't want to make people mad, because they lost their points.

20:27

DDNet has 4 years

20:27

it's 4 years of playing for people

<nemo2> well right now the points are getting all mixed up anyway.

20:27

<nemo2> some other nemo is playing too

Yes, but to get 10k points

20:27

you need to finish houndreds maps

20:28

even the hardests

20:28

not everyone can do that

<nemo2> just give both people who claim the nick the points. could still use uid or unique nicks.

is there a limit for http request on ddnet.tw/ranks?

20:28

else its possible to steal data so people dont loose their points after going down

So, we would hav elike few people with same amount of points ?

wait my post is far out of context

20:29

just realized now, nvm

<nemo2> Savander: since you're into discord - is there by any chance a direct IRC connection mechanism in discord, like slack has?

20:30

<nemo2> Savander: I basically never log into slack using anything but irssi these days

20:30

<nemo2> except if I'm on mobile

No idea, at this moment

iirc discord is against third party clients

<nemo2> oh. boo

that bridge is served by learath2 I guess

20:30

it's bot

<nemo2> well eff them too

listening for a messsage on irc and discord

20:30

and sends to both channles

<nemo2> yeah familiar w/ IRC bots

20:30

<heinrich5991> Savander: it's mine!

oh! I thought it was Learath2

Savander fakenews!

:<

20:31

im sorry!

nut nemo2 you could build a third party client via api

20:31

but u wont get the full client experience ofc

<nemo2> oh darn

20:32

<nemo2> funny. same thing w/ slack guys

20:32

<nemo2> "we don't have a good ncurses client, but why would anyone not want to use our awesome gui client?"

Slack is a bit laggy forme

20:33

and, I don't understand sense of it

20:33

why anyone should use it?

<heinrich5991> team chat in companies, I heard

I using it, for laravel cchat

20:34

they ar eon slack

20:34

but, it's just chat.. I don't see special abilities

20:34

You can PM, you can make channels

20:34

and assign people to it

20:35

oh, and send images, and videos

20:35

but every modern chat can do it

<nemo2> sounds good to me.

20:52

<nemo2> no need to overload things

20:52

<nemo2> but yeah. I think it was intended to just be an enhanced IRC for existing company systems

20:53

<nemo2> which is probably why their integration still works pretty well. and probably would work even better if they didn't only reluctantly support it