DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2017-11-10 00:00:00Z and 2017-11-11 00:00:00Z

@Moderator can u pls update the ddnet fng2 autoexec.cfg files so that sv_max_clients_per_ip is set to 1

moderators can't do that

Would be great though

no

Yes

wait for a admin

ok

06:49

no real hurry bcs i can change it in f2 but it should be default option on startup imo

06:49

ppl abusing dummies in fng is way more common than 2 ppl actually playing from the same house etc

@noby are you sure

no but ive been admin of a prety popular fng server for a few months and thats what ive noticed

but you said no

@noby you already named the downside: two people from the same IP address can't play anymore

@heinrich5991 were the other 5990 names already taken

yes

meh fair enough

07:34

is there any way ddnet could add some of the antibot features ive made

07:34

if nothing else the ones that look at version number+playerflags

how does looking at sth the client send help?

07:38

the version number I mean

baumalein = 708, fclient = 502, zclient = 605 or 602, etc

07:39

we dont want those clients in fng at all

what do we gain if we blacklisted these sent versions?

07:40

the only reason they haven't changed the version number is because no version numbers are blacklisted right now

i mean some of these clients are several years old and closed-source, i doubt the original devs will come back and change that just for one gamemode

statistical methods to detect botting might be actually helpful, I'd guess

im working on this

07:41

making triggerbot detection by looking at the patterns of shot delays etc

07:41

but the problem is that until i find the exact perfect threshold it can make false positives, whereas version number checking cant

but what I mean is that we won't gain anything from that, except for a few weeks

i feel like it would just encourage those people to play on other servers instead of trying to adapt their bots to work on ddnet ones

07:44

ddnet fng isnt even that popular in the first place

Why blacklist bot client, just whitelist dd and vanilla (and possibly h-client)

because vanilla sends nothing to identify itself as vanilla as opposed to any other client that sends no version

and because we don't want to ban any client?

07:51

*all

F vanilla then

what you're suggesting is of no use IMO – it'll take a couple of weeks at most to circumvent this "protection" forever

why did u delete

@noby maybe don't tell everyone what you have to do ...

07:53

xd

Hm

once anyone finds a solution to that "problem", they'll share the solution

Well not likely

(the "problem" being that you can't connect to ddnet fng servers with some clients anymore)

well it's not that hard to download DD

yea, but ddnet doesn't have cheats

07:56

people who want cheats still want to connect to the server

07:56

so they'll find their way around this ineffective protection

thats why allow DD only

that doesnt necesarily work either

see, the problem is: how do you know that the client is a ddnet client?

there are clients that send a legitimate-looking ddnet version number but actually have cheats

the client sends "I'm a ddnet client" and then that's fine

But it might make it harder

thats all the blacklist would do

but what prevents a cheat client from doing the same? – nothing

make it harder for a few certain precompiled shitty bot clients that a lot of people seem to have

then someone comes along and fixes these precompiled shitty bot clients

07:58

what have you gained? a few weeks

so good way of doing it would be making DD send unique,impossible to copy identification code

at least a few weeks, plus everyone who doesnt think to look for an updated version will just move onto another server lol

Witcewouldbeharf

@Mokumoku unfortunately, this is impossible. you can just copy the ddnet client and add your modifications

08:00

and this doesn't even have anything to do with ddnet being open source

Ye I said it would be harf

no, impossible

08:00

you can watch the same thing happening for commercial games

close enough

it's not hard to get a bot for a random commercial game

08:00

if there were a way to fix it, these companies would do it

08:01

yet, with almost unlimited amounts of money at their side, they're unable to do it

08:01

because it's literally impossible

Its extremely hard

08:01

Not impossible

ok. suppose it's possible

08:01

why doesn't valve do it?

because they could make more money developing new games instead of spending that time perfecting antibot for older games

they make a shitton of money with csgo

08:02

and they're pretty happy with not developing new games

because is spending 1000000000$ , to ban 15%(maybe) of players worth it

08:03

Also its extremely hard even with money

well, now you're just pulling numbers out of nowhere ^^

Exactly

08:03

But you night get the point

ok, so you're utterly convinced that it's possible to detect all cheats

M*

tell me a way, and I tell you how to defeat it

And you can't buy knowledge

ok, first easy idea, just to get started: you copy the original client, but modify the input routine to fire once the aimline hits a player

Super ezy (edited)

measure average delay between firing and aiming

Already done it

ye ive already made a system like this

measure typical delays of a pro player, use these delays

wouldnt this either make the bot less effective if the target is moving, or require it to aim as well?

@noby join beefy fng

no

whhy

i keep getting kicked

08:09

its annoying

Yea just make neural network that trains from best fng players

i wont kick u

that definitely isnt an easy solution tho

which one, the one I proposed?

"just make a neural network"

well its still awesome

08:10

^^

@Mokumoku ok, I'll interpret your lack of answer to "tell me a way, and I tell you how to defeat it" as you don't know any way?

i did answer

08:11

[2:09 AM] noby: wouldnt this either make the bot less effective if the target is moving, or require it to aim as well?

well making neural network would be harf, but you wouldn't need to make bot or even play @ all, since it would learn by himself

I actually ment a general way… but if it's still as effective as a pro player, then it's a lot better than I am

@heinrich5991 if I knew a way I would have done it alredy

then why are you so fucking convinced? ^^

And the NN would get better over time

i dont think its possible to detect all cheats but i do think its possible to make good guesses on whether people are using certain cheats based on their inputs

yes

ddnet is bot client

but that's an entirely different question

08:14

and even that, given a good bot

08:14

(I gave you directions where you might find one, did you, @noby ?) (edited)

idk how to contact the guy lol

k

i asked someone and they said he doesnt play anymore

that's probably true

08:16

but yea, I'm open to heuristics detecting bots

08:16

because that's not something you can easily fix without the source code of the bot, or somet thinking

and abouts banning

08:18

maybe make only people who voted, count

we had that in ddnet at some point, you could ask @deen why we don't anymore

Because if I'm correct, over half of all players needy to vote yes for someone to get banned

probably because it caused unfair votes

08:19

(see how @noby complained about votes, even though I presume they also have the 50% rule)

So over half of total votes should result in ban

there is a config option in ddnet that does this

Is it set on it at official DD srvs

no

Whay

we had it on at some point, but as said, @deen disabled it

08:21

probably for a good reason, but I don't know the exact one

i see it as a bad thing because it makes it more likely for stupid funvotes to pass

08:22

people who are afk/busy playing/lazy/w.e wont stop the votes from passing

well it makes reasonable bans unlikely

08:22

cuz he's not blocking me so I don't care

ehh i think if people know someone is blocking they usually f3

08:23

but not always

when you race all-the-time usually is not enough

iam only talking about fng lol

08:27

idk enough about race to really say how it should work there

When you team 0 with 8 ppl get blocked 5 times everyone in your team votebans him all the time, everyone in chat say hes blocking, and you lose by single vote every time cuz someone decided not to vote is anoying (edited)

what about the problem of disruptive votes

Waath

people who constantly vote to kick other players for no reason, or change the map when the round is almost over

vote ban him

08:29

I know there is no perfect solution

08:29

But one afker saving blocker isn't one (edited)

08:30

Like they fun vote like meh

08:30

feelsbadman

the solution there is to autokick afks

08:31

but ye in general i think the voting system has to depend on things like the gamemode and how active the server mods (if any) are

yea

08:32

The problem is ppl being idiots feelsbadman

feelsbadman

lol true, hence the need for vote kick system, anticheat, etc

kick system at all

there actually is no way to know for a fact whether someone is using a ddnet client or not, could make it fairly hard to imitate with a closed source game and privatekey signatures but even those are extracted out of the executable if you know what you are doing

09:14

should have scrolled down before writing that

@noby afkers aren't counted in votes

how is afker determined

what are you doing, if you are afk?

11:19

probably, you are pressing all the possible keys on keyboard

11:19

yes?

11:19

you are moving your mouse (edited)

I ment how long you need to be pressing every button and 360° no-scope for it to think you afk

Fng unfreeze protection is too long

make a poll on forum

13:05

so more people will tell their opinions

Wiiil do

[ddnet/ddnet] Issue opened: #943 antiping on -> nameplates disappear

instead shows own nameplate. did not notice this last time I played a few weeks ago.

oops... my fault. Gonna fix it later

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