DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2017-09-27 00:00:00Z and 2017-09-28 00:00:00Z

<eeeee> layers waste so much memory, someone should figure out an encoding for them which has both compression and fast random access (for collision checks)

01:21

<eeeee> and fast iteration for rendering (what that Skip function currently does)

<Learath2> eeeee: why so happy that I'm moving fetcher into CEngine?

<Learath2> eeeee: I think CFetcher is here to stay :/

03:08

<Learath2> It looks horrible in CEngine with the messy inheritence stuff

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

8fe7944 M Lonely - def-

<deen> eeeee: absolutely. memory is the main constraint. But I was afraid that switching to another representation would probably make cpu the bottleneck instead

<deen> Since you guys were wondering about the RUS server. Just found in my spam folder:

05:33

<deen> У нас произошёл технический сбой на коммутационном оборудовании. Работа сети восстановлена в течение 10-15 минут. К сожалению, нам необходимо в срочном порядке провести работы на сетевом оборудовании (обновление прошивки) для

05:34

<deen> того, чтобы устранить некорректную работу. Работы будут проведены в 01:00. Сеть не будет доступна в течение 15 минут. Приносим свои извинения и надеемся на Ваше понимание!

otlichno moy drug, spasibo za informatsya

clearl we need a blockchain for ddnet records. every record comes with a teehistorian recording so everyone can verify that the rank is valid on that version of the map. so we can allow unofficial servers

08:02

as a replacement of the current centealized database

<heinrich5991> bockchain! cloud computing! cyber!

in gameclient.cpp, do m_pMapLayersBackGround and m_pMapLayersForeGround always point at the same set of layers (unless using entitiy background replacement)

hmmmm actually, even using background entites, they both still point to the same set

<eeeee> deen: nope, that's not enough for unofficial servers unfortunately. e.g. people can create servers which implement /r and splice the teehistorian record.

17:52

<heinrich5991> true, TAS will be possible

17:52

<deen> TAS is possible right now too

17:53

<deen> just record it and replay it on an official server

17:53

<heinrich5991> bit harder, needs automatic adjustment for ping problems

17:53

<heinrich5991> but yes

17:53

<deen> or a vps at the same hoster that we use

<heinrich5991> deen: is there a way of asserting that two byte arrays are the same in gtest?

ok, so let's stop talking in the admin channel and move our conversation here

20:04

why should we be talking in the admin channel for stuff except bugs that can be exploited?

20:05

@snail @Learath2

@Ryozuki well @heinrich5991 apparently agrees with you

oh

20:10

this is literally the first time i achieve a change in ddnet tbh (edited)

20:10

if this will be really done

@Learath2 said that there's not much that is discussed in the admin channel, so don't expect too much

this literally changes nothing because it is logically impossible to disprove a conspiracy

20:13

@Ryozuki please present

present?

I mean your argument

what are we discussing then

so we can all discuss this further and reach a fine conclusion

About admin discussion being open so that non-admin people can give opinion, except when the discussion involves ssh keys, passwords, exploits?

20:15

I would also make a open discussion for moderator applications

20:15

And discussions about who is no longer useful as ddnet staff

20:15

e.g afk people

moderator applications would turn into a popularity contest

If its highly moderated maybe not

20:16

chat-moderated

if it's highly moderated it's not a fair discussion

we could give each person a argument against or in favour

Wheres the point in making moderator shit public tho

arguments considered non-valid will be declined

I don't know how mod applciations are processed, but I guess these discussions usually happen in private

non-valid = stupid reasons

who decides what is stupid?

we would make a discussion about it too

20:17

set some list

as far as I saw before, every moderator application is hard. you have to trust that person, even if you don't really know them

with this, most i'm his friend i want him mod and +1 would be invalid arguments

is it mostly mod applications that you're after?

"And discussions about who is no longer useful as ddnet staff"

20:18

and any other admin discussion that takes place and not involve ssh keys exploits passwords (edited)

20:18

that can happen eventually

Isnt that kinda embarissing for the unuseful staff?

well organized, i think this can be achieved (the mod discussion part)

how would you kmow we are still not running some shady business manipulating the votes?

@ezy and?

you obv don't trust us

20:19

and while hunting for the IRN infiltration we had to consider a few people

@Ryozuki dont fuck peoples tw life up man

don't you think it's rude to besmirch their reputation?

they besmirch or whathever it means their reputation themselves

20:20

if u want to keep ur reputation leave ur staff position if you go afk

I think discussions directly about people is probably a bad idea

https://forum.ddnet.tw/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5601

<deen> @Ryozuki I'll be afk a few months soon. should I be kicked now?

Being inactive for longer than 1 month can result in a demotion.

@deen no, cause you are the one who pays the server.

@Ryozuki we don't always talk about people in staff, if you are staff you obv take that risk

discussing mods in public is very biased in the way that people wont be honest because they dont want the applicant to be mad at them, especially if they are friends but one doesnt think the other would be a good mod

i'll take that risk

20:22

imho u all should too

20:22

i think you don't want to discuss those things in fear of losing ur rank

1

and then it will be a popularity contest aswell

we all take that risk aswell

also if its not fair right now, why would it be fair when its the 10 discord active members deciding it

e.g. I pointed out your ssh key while hunting for Sajed

@snail more people better, always

20:23

and im, pretty sure it would be more than 10

@Ryozuki except when wrong things are said about people. ^^

thats why i said highly moderated

20:23

and why we would set a invalid arguments filter

20:23

or smth like that

at which point you could claim we moderate it to get the result we want

no

but how do you distinguish wrong from right?

you would follow the rules decided by all people to moderate correctly

how do you verify that we follow the rules?

mm looking at the discussion

20:25

making a log of deleted messages by who

20:25

botted

I can make parts of the discussion disappear without a trace

audit log

is there a trusted person in the community who doesn't have any mod/admin/whatever rights?

which I could manipulate

@heinrich5991 vali

ok

there needs to be some trust

so you cant delete other chat

@heinrich5991 sp someone

but only with a bot

20:26

and that bot logs the stuff

20:27

nvm doesnt makes sense

20:27

now u will say who hosts it

20:27

and blah

you say and blah like the blah is nothing

i dont

you either need to place some trust or come up with a perfect way to manage a democracy

Well democracy has proven to be incredibly hard to do right, and even if you think you've got it right it's still not enough for some people and for others it's too much... I think the ddnet admins are well in the position to decide amongst themselves whom to trust and which application to accept... After all, it's in their own interest isn't it? And if the community starts complaining afterwards, you know he was not the right one for that job.

but sometimes you complain and nothing would happen too

I know of no country where democracy is perfect

if there's a trusted person in the community without any rights, we could appoint them to watch the admins

imho a democracy is better than oligarchy

I have responded to every piece of complaint I personally have received

<deen> I propose SP|Someone

^

how about that, @Ryozuki

Democracy im ddnet? 50% would troll

@heinrich5991 about sp someone? xD

20:29

jk

if something was not responded to that thing wasnt shouted loud enough

why do the admins need to be controlled now? what happend? xd

Spain happened

shh

<deen> and who controls the controller?

its not because that

deen: if you're serious, I can work with that

<deen> actually I thoguht my function is to watch the admins

i just made a complain and exposed arguments, now its good u heard me, its up to you if u want to do smth, part of it or nothing

see you say that as if doing nothing is a bad thing, sometimes the status quo turns out to be the best for the majority

@heinrich5991 make a high sophisticated AI to filter invalid arguments xD

or he could just filter the arguments himself :P

what about deen as a watcher, @Ryozuki ?

@Henningstone doesn't work unless you implicitly trust @heinrich5991

i would be fine with it

I thought deen doesn't want to deel with admin complaints?

20:32

deal*

<deen> yeah, i don't

20:32

<deen> i watch from very far away

20:32

<deen> so it's all very quiet

yep thats what i thought

@Learath2 I consider both @deen and @heinrich5991 as unquestionable trustable (edited)

and why i didnt proposed before

20:33

@heinrich5991 you also have a really good judgement too

20:33

and you really know how to keep calm

20:33

and how to express things

20:33

in a no offense way

20:33

i find that rly good

@Henningstone everyone has to for this while thing to be unquestionable

20:33

yeah @heinrich5991 is pretty good at neutral arguments

❤

heartw

1

banhammer

1

1

wut

1

1

tw_cammostripes

1

1

1

that smiley smiles too much... : ) is what I want

tw_twinbop

20:34

^ cute

Wait

20:35

So why do you even want to change things like mod applications in public?

deen, you could also host teesmash :) https://github.com/timazuki/TeeSmash

timazuki/TeeSmash

TeeSmash - A teeworlds mod

ok, I admit that I don't watch mod discussions etc., I bet deen doesn't either

@snail or I follow it most of the time

<deen> @Ryozuki I'm lazy, but some admin can run it

np

why do we need to eat all of tw?

20:37

if someone else hosts this, it's fine, no?

unique already hosts this

@heinrich5991 we need a new era of communism

oh no...

I think

20:38

Great idea

We should do a 2nd tournament @Ryozuki

who deleted my chat?

@Deleted User Heinrich

@deen I promise you one, your ddnet will go down in the next month

no what you want is bound to turn into anarchy as t->+inf

Nah actually it was prob @jao undercover

someone put him the troll role

20:40

so he can't talk here

I think we should open a different channel to discuss these highly philosophical questions, maybe we can come up with our own new system that would finally though surprisingly work and make the whole world a better place? The world could use that...

@Henningstone xD

this channel is linked to irc

<vali> faggot

20:41

<vali> adkw

20:41

<vali> dkw

20:41

<vali> ak

20:41

<vali> dwak

nice

<vali> dwa

Haha

<vali> kwad

20:41

<system> rejoin

20:41

<Henningstone> Nimda best troll xD

@heinrich5991 !lockdown yes?

<heinrich5991> it is already lockdowned

Lockdown tournament

@Ryozuki I have one more argument against public mod discussions

20:42

people can be judged for their vote

what means that

20:43

you want to make votes anonymous?

20:43

fine with that

20:43

we would need our own chat system then

yeah but how to secure voting system?

at which point you can't guarantee non repeated votes

hmmm

anonymous voting is impossible, which is why we still have normal votes in elections

votes in my country are pretty anonymous

U live with erdogan tho

in mine too, you cant know what he votes

@heinrich5991 yet i'm sure you don't vote from home

you just separate identity from the actual vote

but i live in a pesudodictatorship so

yes

pseudo*

anoynmous votes over the internet is impossible

or neo is better maybe

@Learath2 bold claim, people have made others

20:45

IIRC

I dare you to find a way, I spent hours to figure out a way

dna vote xD

with which I can identify you

:/

20:46

well discussing that is useles

20:46

as its clearly impossible

"clearly impossible"

@heinrich5991 i'd love to know if there is a way

yea, me too, googling

@heinrich5991 in ddnet i mean

our politicians either I bet :D

https://www.adoodle.org/

if anonymous votes are impossible I don't think we should make public discussions out of moderators aswell

?

doesn't get you non repeatable votes

the vote system requires an email

20:48

xD

20:48

Please give a list of emails (one for each line or in comma separated form or else). The voter will receive an email containing a unique personal vote ticket and two links to vote and display the results of the vote. Naturally a voter can only vote once.

then you trust adoodle.org to keep their identity a secret

using a external service for us i dont think its a problem

20:49

its a ddnet vote, not a entire state vote

@Learath2 u think people would go that far just to judge someone?

funny how you trust a possibly for profit company more then us

@Learath2 e.g. trustless online poker is also possible btw (haven't found sth in quick googling)

@Learath2 :P

20:52

@heinrich5991 whats that?

online poker is possible as it's not necessary for the sides to know the other persons identity

just something I remember from a cryptography course

ah

but you still have to shuffle the cards

20:53

some way

it's only necessary to get a trusted roll from the "casino"

no

20:53

trustless

it's called provably fair

as I said

20:53

decentralized and everything

provably fair provides the trust i mean

20:53

no need for any implicit trust

but it's something I would have considered impossible before that class

20:54

so don't consider anonymous voting impossible so fast

well if there was a solution to anonymous voting i think state sized entities would have found it

or maybe not

20:54

why would a state whatn unanymous

20:54

they like data

anonymous voting over the internet is just not a good idea over the internet

and knowing people

well not the state but the unis

computers get hacked etc.

20:55

well yeah, unis, I think I read about anonymous online voting before, so you have that

20:56

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_signature

Blind signature

In cryptography a blind signature as introduced by David Chaum is a form of digital signature in which the content of a message is disguised (blinded) before it is signed. The resulting blind signature can be publicly verified against the origina...

20:56

sounds like a good start

20:57

(cryptography/math can do more for you than one would think)

What the

20:58

?

@Savander ?

weird discussion

21:00

World never was equal, why you are trying to make it here?

And why not?

21:00

:P

cause, it's impossible

21:01

People are egocentric race

it would only be possible as long as each and everyone has the same understanding

21:01

and common sense oc

21:02

which just doesn't happen. A handful 'bad' people is enough... Wait how do you know they are bad? For them you are bad xd

21:02

see, already doesn't work

You can make world better, but you will find 10 more people who will fuck you up

1

doesn't mean you shouldn#t try

^

It could work only if you will choose specific persons

21:03

like in sects

21:03

DDNet the sect?

2

21:03

thats the oposite of what we want

21:03

choosing specific people

21:03

like currently

21:03

well

21:03

we = me

we

łi łi

Çřåčķ

<Learath2> deen: here?

My two cents, out of nowhere: 1. About leaving rank when you go off - first of all, it's not always planned, sometimes you may just quite disapear like I did, or earlier onionly' me. But about leaving the rank, there's one thing i'm really curious about - how is that when my rank was removed i was left as plain member, same as lots of other staff members before, yet gdin managed to get "Retired Administrator" rank that was created only and only for deen? :P 2. About discussion for adding or rejecting mods - I do remember lovely times when I had gdin's old role of managing community and taking care for mod applications, those were times when together with @Ryozuki i was talking with those people, people who play with them on specific country-server, and later checking for few days how they behave when they have no idea that anyone from the staff is watching them. And from what i can see, those people are still mods right now - like this dude https://forum.ddnet.tw/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=985

nice wall xD

22:37

@Soreu from what i know, it's to get his opinion, and yes you can get his opinion without having that rank, which made no sense to me. They told me that is to be in the private admin discussion, and there the discussion i created to have open admin discussions

22:38

Which u dont need the rank in forum either, in private admin discussions

22:38

so basically gdidn just wanted to keep his status whilst afk, and used his friend snail i think.

22:38

obviusly this is all unfair for lot of people

22:39

another reason why i want mod discussion open

?_?

2. and me and snail we just appoint people mods and let them roam around, it's much better this way /s

22:53

1. should give a thought about this one

hows gdin being retired admin related to open mod discussions

no that's their other point

"another reason"

oh yeah you mean that, i don't really get that one either

@Learath2 I have no idea how the process runs right now, last time I followed it, mods were added based on forum posts feedback, just shared how it was done when "I had to" care for it.

@Soreu did someone state that or are you just asuming it?

@jao both observed by me, and informed by hi_leute_gll. - and even if he is/was hated, so his opinions were often skipped, it has to be admitted that he was always informed very good.

so you are asuming it

23:33

hi_leute is always mixing his opinion with informations, so I wouldn't believe everything

Mod decisions are currently made by the council which includes @jao o @Deleted User @snail and me

23:37

people get evaluated, we decide to give them a chance or not, if we give them a chance and they blow it we go ahead and remove them

Glad to hear

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