DDraceNetwork - developer

DDraceNetwork

Development / developer

Development discussion. Logged to https://ddnet.tw/irclogs/ Connected with DDNet's IRC channel, Matrix room and GitHub repositories — IRC: #ddnet on Quakenet | Matrix: #ddnet-developer:matrix.org GitHub: https://github.com/ddnet

Between 2017-09-10 00:00:00Z and 2017-09-11 00:00:00Z

ok, how is the state of macOS regarding deployment, I just wrote some script to copy all required shared libs to some target dir and fix searchspaths for them; I guess this will be quite useful

[ddnet-maps:master] 1 new commit

bb06ecd A Where am I - def-

<deen> @HMH well, i got the release version fixed, but i'm still using bam and it's messy

[ddnet/ddnet-web] Pull request opened: #31 rebuild .fade

not sure if it applies to all sites since i can't test them all but it applies to all (static) sites available here.

<heinrich5991> deen: I've drafted a very simple demo format, roughly 1MB/player hour

12:03

<heinrich5991> my goal would be to record all races so we can view them later

12:04

<heinrich5991> (in case some map bug gets detected, etc.)

12:04

<heinrich5991> are you fundamentally against the idea, or can I try to develop this furtherly

?ouh how do you compress the data so much

12:05

?

<heinrich5991> I throw away everything

12:05

<heinrich5991> basically

12:05

<heinrich5991> best compression

12:05

<heinrich5991> I only record player position and input

<heinrich5991> (compresses to a fifth of that btw, so 0.2MB/player hour if compressed with xz or bz2)

i like the idea

12:56

Disk: 15.35 GiB / 295.23 GiB

12:56

ger doesnt have disk space problems :D

<heinrich5991> well, it'd be >1gb per day

12:58

<heinrich5991> uncompressed 6gb, compressed 2gb

hmm

12:58

what is the average finishes per day?

<heinrich5991> but we can figure that part out

12:58

<heinrich5991> the interesting question is whether deen would be okay with that idea in general

heinrich5991 are you okay with it even?

14:18

mass data collection

<heinrich5991> it's game play data collection

14:22

<heinrich5991> :)

does any1 know which file is "CNetServer" ?

src/engine/shared/network_server.cpp, src/engine/shared/network.h

network_server

hero

(edited)

ty

14:24

heros*

@ChillerDragon what tools do you use to edit the Teeworlds source code?

visual studio

then you should be able to "go to definition"

ye i should

14:25

xd

.. but?

i broke everything

14:25

haha

14:25

i good at breaking things

then you should still be able to do a full-text search

14:26

either search for "class CNetServer" or for "CNetServer::"

14:26

should find you header or implementation, respectively

ye thats a good idea

14:26

ty c:

14:27

im still a beginner hehe

remove visual studio and you suddenly jump up to intermediate

ignore @Learath2 on that one

14:28

garbage studio is not good for you

visual studio is a nice ide

just as a bulldozer is a good day to day vehicle

name a better IDE

14:31

(not claiming that VS is the best one)

no ide is best ide

vs is defnetly trash

14:31

it just crashed agian

14:32

annoying to open all the files agian especially if you work with two sources

14:32

total chaos

@Learath2 yea see? then don't try to compare IDEs

no ide?

14:32

like using plain editor hehe?

see he is a beginner and even he knows its trash

if vs keeps crashing i switch to notepad

you get a nice editor that has nice coding plugins

14:34

sublime, vim

14:34

clion is nice i've heard

<c0d3d3v> I thnk Vs is a creat tool. But every tool is as good as its user...

you think that until you work on anything slightly bigger then tw

<c0d3d3v> great*

and then it starts crashing, you search for sth it crashes, you disable a project it reindexes everything, the shitpiler they call msvc links things so slowly i could link it faster by hand

14:37

overall great experience i had with that thing

clion

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xd

14:38

i also think its nice

you couldn't get it to work and that's why you're saying "remove visual studio and you suddenly jump up to intermediate"? ^^

<c0d3d3v> But to work effortlessly on some sources you dont need such big tools. So I also could recommend emacs. But at the end it is your choise... Atom is a easy to use IDE, and nearly as fast as a simple texteditor (sublime)...

sorry i'm not going to buy more ram to get an easily replacable product working

you're free not to use any software

ram is usefull everywhere

yep

but why do you actively recommend against it?

clion is even more expensive lol

14:39

rofl Ram

atom takes minutes to load up, it's not an ide and it's orders of magnitude slower then sublime

14:40

I don't want people to suffer

HMH answer me private chat -.-

even though this discussion amuses me I do not think it is the best idea to start a war about ides/editors here

<c0d3d3v> I said "nealy" ... and Atom is a better choice then Vs... But I use still emacs :S

oke

@HMH nothing of much importance going on anyways

yes, the demo thing!

ye thats awesome

@heinrich5991, does that demo record you wrote, will store only finished runs? Or something?

14:42

Just like on teerace

14:43

when you can download record of someone run (edited)

teerace records demos?

yes

14:43

and ghosts

lal

i like to spend atleast half my day doing missionary work, preventing people from making the same mistakes i made when i was young

maybe, or i am wrong

14:43

i thought, i saw demos

i thought the ppls all uploaded manually haha

14:43

but ye makes sense

14:43

no dudes upload their demos hehe

@Savander it will store all game data, not just from races

oh right, to better debuggin

also private whisper messages hehe

but then, maybe it would be cool to save demos of races?

14:44

maybe after finish, combine position data with map

14:44

and make demo?

i always send ascii nudes via whisper

14:44

i dont want them to be recorded

@heinrich5991 can your demos be converted into normal demos to be watched in client?

but, without chat Chiller

uff

@Learath2 it would take some work

14:45

theoretically, input data is all you need

14:45

but then ddnet is not really reproducible

what about changeing server_demo_record to save only inputs of players

14:46

Anyway guys, i have to say that. In germany, you have best chicken i ever ate

14:46

DELICIOUS

u are in germany?

@heinrich5991 yes any thoughts on floatingpointimprecision especially across builds and systems

i was, yesterday

hm

14:47

im still there

in Hamburg

floating point is not hte issue

too far away anyways

@HMH random teleports are the main issue for now

ahh yes, we also got these, indeed they are a somewhat bigger problem then

should we make them predictable maybe?

one could do that any minute

14:48

we should update the maps in that case btw

well could do it with a prng

then we cando it without as well

so wouldn't need to do anything on maps

just choose the first teleporter you find

why would we need to update the maps tho?

14:52

well actually in that case having multiple teleport targets would be useless

14:53

so the "load balancing" use of teleporters would be gone

we could also use spawn logic or something similar

spawnlogic would be kewl for tele but it would rip all the lucky minigames build with tele

14:54

but i guess any system would do that

exactly

what kind of "cool minigames"?

14:55

random isn't "cool minigame"

xd

14:55

dont u know these?

no

i only have the Pup or Pop map in mind where u can get an sg

prng doesn't really break the cool minigames

2% chance

until someone creates a cheat client that is

or you die

14:56

i only know png

2% shotgun is not a cool minigame

yes it sucks

for a racing mod

but maybe some1 build something better

14:56

i guess spawn logic is the best

once chance is involved, the competitiveness is gone

14:56

or it encourages grinding

tru

14:57

"minigame"

14:57

not game

<heinrich5991> Learath2: so what else has to go into these server-side demos?

16:11

<heinrich5991> 1) player names

16:11

<heinrich5991> 2) team commands

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<heinrich5991> can you think of anything else?

16:12

<heinrich5991> or rather, team movement in general, not just team commands

possible to remove timeout protection from test servers?

heinrich5991 some initial state to properly simulate doors and bullets i guess

<heinrich5991> jao: why?

16:37

<heinrich5991> Learath2: shouldn't be necessary

@heinrich5991 if you timeout you can't rejoin often since test servers have limited slots; also you don't need to save any game progress since its just for testing

<heinrich5991> Learath2: since the whole game is recorded, switch states should be obvious from play history

what about /load ?

<heinrich5991> yes, load and save would be good

<deen> heinrich5991: sounds great

17:58

<deen> I'm just always sad that we didn't record 4 years ago :)

what happend back then?

<heinrich5991> we'll probably have to save these records off-site though

18:00

<heinrich5991> probably won't work on te servers directly

18:01

<deen> about editors/ides: who cares? just try out a few and use whatever you like

18:02

<heinrich5991> +1 :)

18:02

<deen> people have different preferences, so there can't be an absolute best

18:02

<deen> (typical religious wars)

sure a sluggish crashing editor is universally bad

<deen> so if you don't like that don't use it

18:03

<deen> if others notice that they don't like it and they google for "code editors" they will find other suggestions

it's going to be a PITA for the majority of people so i do my best to steer them away from the beginning

18:04

so they dont get used to the cushy features and miss them when they have to leave VS

<deen> heinrich5991: how would it work? can you convert them back to a serverside full demo?

18:05

<heinrich5991> not with the current tools

18:05

<heinrich5991> but yes

18:05

<deen> ok

18:05

<deen> so we could do that live and offer downloads

18:05

<deen> Learath2: i think agressive stances scare off more people than bad editors

18:06

<deen> like telling a new-comer "your programming language is bad, use a real programming language"

it's for their best

For me, i don't care what people are using

18:17

and i don't tell them to use something else

18:17

if they don't ask

18:17

it's personal preference

18:17

So i suggest to use more than one environment

18:18

to just convince yourself, what best for you

exactly, i just help them remove one possiblity from the list faster

But you can suggest instead of telling them it's bad (in your opinion)

@deen && @heinrich5991 where would we store these? S3?

<deen> no!

18:21

<deen> just a normal server with a backup?

18:21

<heinrich5991> I'd probably buy a hard drive and store them there

18:21

<heinrich5991> mirrored or so

18:21

<deen> for starters we can store them on ddnet.tw server

well would need quite some storage on that server

<heinrich5991> yes

18:21

<deen> I can clean up some stuff there and make space, and need to increase it anyway

servers with a lot of storage seem more expensive then those storage clouds

<deen> but initially probably just store them locally on each server?

18:22

<heinrich5991> yes, but it'll be more than 1gb for all servers together, per day

18:22

<deen> that's not so bad

18:22

<heinrich5991> yes,

18:22

<deen> let's say 1.5 GB?

18:22

<deen> 500 GB / year

18:22

<heinrich5991> upper estimate is 2GB, let's say that

18:23

<deen> you want to keep all recordings forever?

18:23

<heinrich5991> it's in the range of "I can buy hard drives faster"

18:23

<deen> or filter them?

18:23

<heinrich5991> all recordings forever

18:23

<deen> so after saving all tw maps you now want to record all game play? :D

18:23

<heinrich5991> (they'd btw also make great test cases for reproducible)

18:23

<heinrich5991> *reproducibility

18:23

<heinrich5991> :D

18:23

<deen> yeah, true

18:24

<deen> they'd also be great for teaching machine learning ;)

18:24

<heinrich5991> :D

18:24

<heinrich5991> anyway

well if you keep the backups on cold storage can't really let users download them

2TB for 30$

18:24

sounds good or bad? xD

<heinrich5991> where? what redundancy?

18:24

<heinrich5991> 30$ per month?

just searching for

18:24

vps storage

18:24

https://servarica.com/special_offers/storage-vps-offers/

Storage VPS Offers

18:24

it doesnt matter

18:24

which loc

18:24

yes?

<deen> Learath2: meh, i even have 40 mbit/s upload at home, even that would be enough

18:25

<heinrich5991> heh, nice

what about OVH backup

18:25

?

whoa i get 10 here

18:25

@deen well you could host it

(edited)

<heinrich5991> I think this means that I can spend some more time on this feature :)

18:26

<deen> heinrich5991: sure

https://www.ovh.co.uk/dedicated_servers/backup-storage.xml

Backup Storage: your server backup

Get a free 500 GB backup space with every server. Data transfer via FTP, FTPS, NFS and CIFS.

<deen> i wanted to make this myself before

18:26

<deen> that's the stuff for not saving map inside demos

18:26

<deen> and why i fixed server demo recording at some point

18:26

<deen> but it was still pretty large

18:26

<heinrich5991> demo has too much overhead though

18:26

<deen> exactly

18:26

<heinrich5991> I'm rolling my own format :/

RAID 1 should be good enough so cost not too bad

<deen> So I gave a test run for a few days and then stopped it again

i remember that

18:27

it was like 2 years ago ?

<deen> Learath2: raid 1 is never enough, everything needs an offline backup

18:27

<deen> @Savander I guess

@deen give it a backup each month \o/

maybe you should try some of OVH for backups. Maybe they are good enough your your data

<heinrich5991> I fear that storage by some providers is always going to be more expensive

Can't be cheaper then deen hosting it at home tho

it depends

well could be actually

<heinrich5991> mirroring it across two locations (my place! :P) would be fine, probably

how you calucalte costs

18:28

calculate *

<heinrich5991> I recently bought two 4TB hdds, 130€ each, approx

18:29

<deen> anyway, the data grows slowly enough that we can worry about all that later

18:29

<deen> no hurry

18:29

<heinrich5991> yes

electricity, bandwidth ?

18:29

Yea, that's right. But it's good to think about such things eariler

well we have 240 days atleast just if we store them on ger

<deen> heinrich5991: that might also be a way to be able to offer official ddnet servers as a package that everyone can install

18:30

<deen> heinrich5991: so we would get recordings along with the record for the database

18:31

<deen> and then the server could simulate the recording and see if it's accurate before adding it

18:31

<deen> (not sure we want that though)

but what about floatingpoint stuff then ?

<deen> enforce some accurate float calculation and lose 5% performance

how do you enforce that ?

<deen> weird compiler settings, dunno :D

18:34

<deen> didn't look into it

18:35

<deen> -mpc64 or sth: http://christian-seiler.de/projekte/fpmath/

guess could somehow force soft floats or sth

18:38

might be a big performance hit tho

the last time I read about this topic my result was that this is going to be quite complicated and that there is no simple compileroption to get deterministic floats across different platforms and hardware

apparently +,-,*,/,sqrt are deterministic

[ddnet-web:master] 1 new commit

b9ff041 ddnet aur - def-

<heinrich5991> no

19:15

<heinrich5991> standard compiler settings should suffice

19:15

<heinrich5991> at least for gcc, clang

19:15

<heinrich5991> don't enable -ffast-math

19:16

<deen> sounds good

19:16

<heinrich5991> and TW goes out of its way to always convert back to ints after each tick

19:16

<heinrich5991> deen: but that also needs determinism

19:16

<heinrich5991> and I want that regardless

19:16

<heinrich5991> (no random teleporters)

19:16

<heinrich5991> otherwise you can cheat using non-official servers

19:16

<deen> make them semi-random

19:17

<deen> dependent on the current time of the player

well our operations are limited to +,-,*,/,sqrt, so our math is all deterministic without fastmath

<deen> that should be good enough

oh tick time and a prng should be fine

<heinrich5991> I'd rather do away with that

19:17

<deen> heinrich5991: so just iterate over them?

19:17

<deen> heinrich5991: or always choose 1?

19:17

<heinrich5991> no, just take the first one, and fix the maps

19:18

<deen> yeah, that would be great too

19:18

<deen> then we can have full prediction in client

19:18

<heinrich5991> yep

well could auto fix maps to remove all extra teleport to tiles

19:18

but still teleports did some load balancing too how'd we fix that?

<heinrich5991> well, I'm talking about those that need actual game play fixes

19:23

<deen> there are some maps that use that fact to make the map harder

19:24

<deen> so they would become easier now

19:24

<heinrich5991> yes

given we shouldn't change map difficulty i guess we should use a prng

19:40

i guess we could just make the map slightly easier and just call it a day

@Learath2 what do you mean with "well our operations are limited to +,-,*,/,sqrt" ?

19:51

or rather which operations, gamecore uses stuff like sinf cosf and also powf

oh true

well idk, we could check a couple of common platforms, see how far we are off, we might be consistent afterall

<heinrich5991> these must be the same on all platforms as well

21:24

<heinrich5991> I think msvs might have a faulty math lib

21:24

<heinrich5991> but it might just be handling of non-normal floats, I don't recall

IEEE doesn't guarantee trig functions no?

<heinrich5991> it doesn't?

21:24

<heinrich5991> I thought it does

i think it only guarantees +,-,*,/,sqrt

<heinrich5991> IEEE 754-2008, the most widely used standard for floating-point computation, does not address calculating trigonometric functions such as sine.

21:26

<span> foobar</span>

well https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/floating-point-determinism/ this says it should be consistent for floats for most platforms

Floating-Point Determinism

Is IEEE floating-point math deterministic? Will you always get the same results from the same inputs? The answer is an unequivocal “yes”. Unfortunately the answer is also an unequivocal “no”. I’m a…

<heinrich5991> (oh god)

21:28

<heinrich5991> it seems that discord passes the chat messages unescaped to the notifications

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<heinrich5991> which interprets it as html

21:28

<heinrich5991> I can never see the notifications because the IRC prepends a <> tag

21:28

<heinrich5991> but when my name is span, I can see it again ._.

21:29

<Learath2> :D

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